Manufacturing affordable large, new nixie tubes

[Aiden Koh]

I'm a product engineer taking on a new project.
With current manufacturing methods, I'm able to manufacture In-18/Z568M inspired nixie tubes, at a fraction of their market costs (sub 25 USD/pc). I don't compromise on quality. hence, it will be built with parts mostly sourced from the US, and have the quality management system ISO-certified.

However, due to overhead costs, such a price is only available if the minimum demand for said tubes is reached. Hence I can only commence with the project when I know that there is enough interest.

What are your thoughts? Would it interest you if such tubes exist? show your support, and large, affordable nixie tubes may finally be within our grasp!

[Terry S]

Dalibor is already making very high quality tubes, and it took him years to perfect his process. I'm skeptical of your claim of a sub $25 price. But if you can produce them, you will surely find a ready market.

[Aiden Koh]

Hi Terry:) I understand your skepticism, after all, we have been accepting high prices for large tubes for so long, honestly we have grown used to it. Dalibor does an extremely great job as a "boutique" nixie tube builder; think of his method as the Rolls Royce approach, hand-built, limited quantity. After accounting for the raw materials and some investigating on existing factories that could handle its unique manufacturing process, it is possible that it can be produced at said price. With a lot of hard work and dedication put into the mix of course!:)

[barefoot1]

I also agree with Terry S. 

Dalibor is making excellent Nixie tubes and I think his quality is excellent bar none. Watching Dalibor's video of the complete manufacturing process is a thing of beauty.

If you can compete with Dalibor give it a run it would be an interesting Nixie to see.

I wish you the best of luck in your endeavour. 

On Wednesday, April 19, 2017 at 8:45:46 AM UTC-4, barefoot1 wrote:

On Wednesday, April 19, 2017 at 8:45:46 AM UTC-4, barefoot1 wrote:

[alb.001 alb.001]

At about $25  I would buy at least 12 to start.  A serial factory built ISO qualified product would get lots of interest just to compete with the Russian suppliers who obviously have vast stores of ( now overpriced) older by the day nixies.

My 2 cents worth

Phil B

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[Nicholas Stock]

If you can indeed deliver on that promise you will have no trouble selling a large quantity of tubes. However, given some of the pitfalls of new tube manufacturing that Dalibor has encountered (and mostly solved) then I wouldn't take this project on lightly.....

What is your minimum threshold to cover overhead?

On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 2:50 AM, Aiden Koh <aiden...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm a product engineer taking on a new project.

With current manufacturing methods, I'm able to manufacture In-18/Z568M inspired nixie tubes, at a fraction of their market costs (sub 25 USD/pc). I don't compromise on quality. Hence, it will be built with parts mostly sourced from the US, and have the quality management system ISO-certified.

However, due to overhead costs, such a price is only available if the minimum demand for said tubes is reached. Hence I can only commence with the project when I know that there is enough interest.

What are your thoughts? Would it interest you if such tubes exist? show your support, and large, affordable nixie tubes may finally be within our grasp!

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[JohnK]

Hmm, are you talking QA or QC?

By 'product engineer' you make it sound as if you think you can treat the process like a 'recipe'. You are relying on experts in the various fields required rather than having any direct knowledge yourself? High quality components can make a high quality dud too by the way.

From the lack of substance in your 'blurb' you give ME the impression that you are a marketer by outlook.

 

Regardless - people should not even consider buying until the results of life testing is known.

 

John Kaesehagen

Australia

[retired trouble-shooter ISO cert electronics factory]

 

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[gregebert]

I'd suggest you start with an IN-18 first, preferrably one that is electrically and mechanically interchangeable.

If you can get the pin-to-glass seals to pass a helium leak-test, I'd say you have cleared a major production hurdle.

[David Forbes]

You never stated what you think the minimum quantity is (at $25 per
unit) to start making money.

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[Mike Harrison]

On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 09:59:59 -0700, you wrote:

>You never stated what you think the minimum quantity is (at $25 per
>unit) to start making money.
>
>
>On 4/19/2017 2:52 AM, Aiden Koh wrote:
>> I'm a product engineer taking on a new project.
>> With current manufacturing methods, I'm able to manufacture In-18/Z568M
>> inspired nixie tubes, at a fraction of their market costs (sub 25
>> USD/pc). I don't compromise on quality. hence, it will be built with
>> parts mostly sourced from the US, and have the quality management system
>> ISO-certified.
>>
>> However, due to overhead costs, such a price is only available if the
>> minimum demand for said tubes is reached. Hence I can only commence with
>> the project when I know that there is enough interest.

>> What are your thoughts? Would it interest you if such tubes exist? show
>> your support, and large, affordable nixie tubes may finally be within
>> our grasp!

Kickstarter.

[Tomasz Kowalczyk]

W dniu środa, 19 kwietnia 2017 19:19:51 UTC+2 użytkownik mikeselectricstuff napisał:

Kickstarter. 

I don't think kickstarter is a good idea to start a business. Of course, if something goes wrong and the money gets essentially wasted, no one can blame you if you spent it on research, and you don't risk your money. But you start with promising people something in return for their money. Being a good kickstarter requires you to provide some information about how is the project going as often as possible - so you have to focus not only on your work, but also on managing whole feedback.

I personally would buy some large tubes if they were no more than 30$ and with high life expectancy (under proper operation with standard cleansing routines).

But two questions: 

1. Are you going to make replicas of existing tubes or some new product based on general trends in nixie clock societies?

2. If they are going to be replicas, are they going to be exact replicas - including the base? As far as I understand the reason why R|Z568Ms made by Dalibor Farny have a metal base is because making the base in original way is simply too hard/too expensive to make. For me this is something that would stop me from buying a new tube - I prefer the original tube bottoms.

Also if they are going to be new tubes based on what is popular today - there is room for some additions and/or modifications. For example - currently the king and queen of tubes are Z568M and IN-18, they both have quite thick, hexagonal anode mesh - I think it is worth trying to make a tube with wired anode, like ZM1177 or B-5441 have, or at least cutting the mesh even thinner. In my opinion tubes with wired anode have better visibility and just look better when viewed from short distance.

[SWISSNIXIE - Jonathan F.]

Dalibors tubes are wonderful and perfect, and the price is very reasonable no boubt about that.

If there were newly made tubes in size of Z566M or ZM1042 this would be perfect, the Dalibor tubes are rather big, and for a clock to place on your desk or so they are maybe to big. Tubes in size of 30mm digits would be very nice and good looking for projects, if they were affordable.

If you want to producte nixie tubes on a brand commercial level be prepared to pay a lot of money for licences and so. In the end, the question is if the marked of nixie-builders is large enough to be commerical. If you sell a tube for 25$ and lets say you sell 1000pcs of it, you only made 25'000$ of sales so you will not be able to live from the nixie production unless you are a one-man-company or not doing it for a living.  But if you really would make tubes in size of IN-18 at a good price, i would defenitely buy at leas 12-18 for my projects!


P.S. About the russian supplies.

You know that they say "every tale has a piece of truth in it".
An ebay seller one day told me, he was interested in buying a old factory where they made IN-13 bargraph tubes. He also said parts and machines are still there and look in working condition, but the factory remains closed since 1990. What if iit is true? OR what if when someone actually bought a factory and made tubes - for example IN-12 - there are so many around, i actually bought a "live-long" supply of 40, they have a old date code of 86, but they really look like they came just out of a factory yesterday...

[Aiden Koh]

Hi! I believe that the design shouldn't be entirely based on the existing tubes; if we can incorporate favorited characteristics based on general trends, why not?

It's true, the thinner the mesh, the better. I do agree that wired anodes like on zm1177 improve visibility. Thanks for the suggestion:) It may just work, depending on whether manufacturing it separately from the cathode and backplate is practical.

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[Aiden Koh]

Hi John, you're right about how people shouldn't commit to buying a product that hasn't stood real life testing in the first place.

I believe it promotes a culture where new manufacturers think it's fine to push out a product before its ready.

I'm sorry if I sound unsubstantial; I had once contacted stem base suppliers in china, and they do say that they have the product line ISO 9001 certified, but I have a hunch that they subcontract the orders to another workshop. The US manufacturers carry the parts needed, and they're more reputable too. High-quality parts would equate to less of a headache.

On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 10:37 PM, JohnK <yen...@internode.on.net> wrote:

Hmm, are you talking QA or QC?

By 'product engineer' you make it sound as if you think you can treat the process like a 'recipe'. You are relying on experts in the various fields required rather than having any direct knowledge yourself? High quality components can make a high quality dud too by the way.

From the lack of substance in your 'blurb' you give ME the impression that you are a marketer by outlook.

 

Regardless - people should not even consider buying until the results of life testing is known.

 

John Kaesehagen

Australia

[retired trouble-shooter ISO cert electronics factory]

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Aiden Koh

To: neonixie-l

Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2017 7:22 PM

Subject: [neonixie-l] Manufacturing affordable large, new nixie tubes

I'm a product engineer taking on a new project.
With current manufacturing methods, I'm able to manufacture In-18/Z568M inspired nixie tubes, at a fraction of their market costs (sub 25 USD/pc). I don't compromise on quality. hence, it will be built with parts mostly sourced from the US, and have the quality management system ISO-certified.

However, due to overhead costs, such a price is only available if the minimum demand for said tubes is reached. Hence I can only commence with the project when I know that there is enough interest.

What are your thoughts? Would it interest you if such tubes exist? show your support, and large, affordable nixie tubes may finally be within our grasp!

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[Aiden Koh]

Hi Nicholas:) I totally agree with you; considering that what we are planning to undertake is building a manufacturing process ground up, there would definitely be a huge number of pitfalls waiting for us. Most of them would almost certainly be different from what Dalibor had encountered too. The best option then would be to learn from the quality management systems used by nixie tube factories of the past, and form a good one for ourselves based on our circumstances.

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[JohnK]

Hah! It isn't really about the QM, it is about the technology and the engineering knowledge.

Your "we" had better have some real engineers in it!

You are sounding more and more like a "Product Manager" as we call them out here.

 

Once all the technologically-required steps are known, we get the Industrial Engineers involved in effective factory design and QC etc.

The Product Manager is the guy who BSs the buyers.

 

John K

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[JohnK]

I do wish you well with the enterprise Aiden but it sounded to me as if your first buyers were going to carry the venture and risk aspects.

 

I have knowledge of Chinese manufacturing both back when trouble-shooting and very recently when doing the same for a mate who imports LED lighting.

You better be prepared to pop over there a few times.

 

Take my comments in the context of a [very] sceptical potential customer; I'll probably shush now :-)

 

John K

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[NeonJohn]

On 04/20/2017 05:28 AM, Aiden Koh wrote:

> I'm sorry if I sound unsubstantial; I had once contacted stem base
> suppliers in china, and they do say that they have the product line ISO
> 9001 certified, but I have a hunch that they subcontract the orders to
> another workshop. The US manufacturers carry the parts needed, and they're
> more reputable too. High-quality parts would equate to less of a headache.

Owning a small manufacturing company, I can comment with some authority.
I think that you're hopelessly naive about this proposal. Do you have
at least $1 million at your disposal? That would probably pay for a
minimally automated plant. And maybe another $mil for R&D.

About buying American. Dream on. Very few electronics products are
made in America anymore. It's almost all done in China, Taiwan and a
few other far eastern companies. All the US companies do is mark up the
product. A lot. If you do find a piece manufactured in the US, you have
a fiduciary duty to your investors and stockholders to investigate far
eastern manufacture of the part.

Example: A Meanwell 15 volt 15 watt power supply. About $25 from
Mouser. Less than $3 directly from Meanwell when I buy 100 pieces.
Cheaper when I buy more.

Another example. Our induction heater uses a large buck converter
toroidial inductor. From Magnetisc, low quantity price was $35.
Somewhere around $20 in quantity 100. We found out who their Chinese
manufacturer is. $2, quantity 200.

The next thing you need to know about the Chinese is that they will tell
you anything you want to hear. It's not lying in their culture. It is
culturally very difficult to say "no". We address that problem by
having an agent in China. He's a Chinese citizen with an American
technical education who speaks flawless English. He actually visits the
factories and verifies that we are getting what we spec'd and what we
paid for.

Which brings up the next thing about China. It is ALWAYS cash up front.
Most manufacturers will accept an escrow service which gives us some
reassurance but each order is still somewhat of a shot in the dark.

Now a comment on the tube itself. I worked for a couple of years for a
man named Ed Kay, retired Chief Engineer at Tung Sol's tube
manufacturing plant in NJ. Being an amateur glass blower and interested
in vacuum tubes, I relentlessly picked his brain.

There were and are SO many little trade secrets that go into designing
and building a successful tube. Take electrode treatment, for example.
You can't just have them made and use them in a tube. There are several
chemical and mechanical treatments that must be performed first. For
Nixie tube, Dalbor knows but he's not telling. The point of this
paragraph is to try to convey to you just how much R&D you have ahead of
you before you design your piece of manufacturing equipment.

I think that a $50 tube might be possible IFF you have very deep pockets
backing you. No way at the price you quoted.

And we still haven't addressed the potential market for Nixie tubes at
any price. I don't think it's there. We Nixieonians constitute a tiny
market. What product do you see that might consume say, 100,000 tubes a
year?

John

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[Tomasz Kowalczyk]

W dniu czwartek, 20 kwietnia 2017 11:26:15 UTC+2 użytkownik SWISSNIXIE - Jonathan F. napisał:

Dalibors tubes are wonderful and perfect, and the price is very reasonable no boubt about that.

If there were newly made tubes in size of Z566M or ZM1042 this would be perfect, the Dalibor tubes are rather big, and for a clock to place on your desk or so they are maybe to big. Tubes in size of 30mm digits would be very nice and good looking for projects, if they were affordable.

Making a tube based on Z566M is a great idea.

Firstly, if the B13B socket would be used, the new tubes could be easily integrated in existing clocks (or perhaps even still functioning lab equipment), as it is most popular for medium sized tubes.

Secondly, Z566M is (in my opinion) the most beauftiful tube existing with perfect digits shape and tube diameter/height proportion. Z568M is very similar, but looks "fatter", not mentioning the price and avaibility difference. 

And I agree that they have a good size for a clock - a Z568M clock can easily be wider than 0,5m, which is gigantic!

But still the most important thing is if and when the new tubes would be ready including their operating life tests.

[Dalibor]

Hello!

I am sending few notes to this topic, from a perspective of someone who spent last 5 years exclusively in nixie tubes manufacture ;-)

IMHO, $25 nixie tube is not possible. Nixie tubes were never so cheap, even in 60s, the less expensive tube from Burroughs was for $8 (equal to today's $64) when bought in a quantity of 1000pcs, type B-5016, no mercury. Large tube (B-7094) were for $30 (today's $240). In this time, the nixie tubes were cutting edge technology with generous budget, hoard of R&D engineers and whole tube backing industry. They were produced in large quantities for lot of equipment, mostly measuring devices - almost never for digital clocks, they were simply expensive for consumer market.

You can now find small tubes on eBay for around $5, mostly russian tubes - their price is now determined by market (what are hobbyists willing to pay for it), not manufacturing costs. They were produced in large volumes in soviet central planned economy, even when the demand was decreasing - this is why there are still full stocks of them in former soviet countries.

You mention "current manufacturing methods", we actually dont have much new technologies which could simplify the nixie tube manufacture. The use of computers is very limited and doesnt help much. Also new technologies like laser cutting etc. doesnt help (only for machinery construction, jigs..). There are tens of operations involved in the assembly/sealing/pumping procedures - the quantity of machines needed for automated line would be big and their price very high. As NeonJohn suggested - few $M would be necessary just for the machinery. You would also soon find that automation make demands on supplier's tolerances ( e.g. glass thickness, diameter) which is beyond their standard production capabilities = back to hand processing.. This is one of the reason why large factories like Blackburn had own facilities for production of all the raw materials/prefabs.

Last year, I had a meeting with people from german company producing glassworking machines - simple semiautomated machine just for sealing operation (stem/envelope) which still needs operator starts at $250.000 and its production capacity is not so high (my estimation was 30 tubes/hour). And this is one of very few pieces of equipment you can purchase, the rest is necessary to develop - according to your specifications and process description.

But even if you had a fully equiped factory now, it would take you long time to get to working nixie tubes. It is not about machines, but about the operator/R&D - you need to know when the tube is sufficiently degassed before filling, what purity of the raw material is necessary, purity of the gases, time for aging etc.. Many factors, each of them can make your tube prone to failure. Not immediately, but after year of operation for instance - your backers will not wait years until you come up with working combination..

Some data from our business:

- Our price for a tube is now set to $145.

- We make around 130 tubes per month (+ handful of clocks) with monthly revenue of around 20.000 USD.

- We are now a team of 5 people and this production volume makes us really busy (I work 7 days a week, all day long).

- We need 250 square meters (2700sqft) of space for our current equipment.

- As for the "butique price" - my monthly net salary is $384, I get paid since February 2017 ;-) But my people's salary is above average (for a given profession and our region).

- I invested around $80.000 from my personal savings on the beginning

I know that if I want to really succeed and earn money, I need to cut down the production costs. So I am step by step making our manufacture efficient with the intention to make our nixie tubes less expensive one day. I am investing our profit back to tooling/equipment, I am for example working on a high vacuum rotary manifold for carousel pumping machine with higher production capacity. I recently reverse-engineered Philips vacuum locking mechanism (tube clamping) for the same machine. But I am not sure if it is possible to make nixie tubes for below $60-80 even with high level of automation.

I hope it doesnt sound too discouraging ;-) just my $0.02

best regards,

Dalibor Farny

[Jeff Walton]

Dalibor’s information is surprisingly candid.  He is also quite correct that there are many operations such as this which are extremely labor intensive.  His videos are very educational and tell you a lot about what it will take to even begin to make Nixies.  The investment to justify more automation is based on volume production and the ability to reach a “critical mass” where production volumes and demand at a market price will generate sufficient capital to purchase machinery and support the overhead of a highly specialized operation.  The economics of such a market do not exist (IMHO) for anything beyond a “boutique” or “cottage” industry, as we call them.  There is certainly sufficient economy to support small operations such as Dalibor’s but I think that mass producing tubes simply does not have the demand that it would take to get the price down to the price levels suggested.

 

Forgetting about the economics, it has taken Dalibor 5 years of hard work to learn some of the lost art of producing a product which actually requires a great deal of expertise in materials, gasses and a level of cleanliness that he is just discovering.

 

I come from the semiconductor industry where I learned that the electrical design of the chip is actually only a very small fraction of what it takes to make a viable product.  The physics of the materials and the manufacturing skills required to maintain such an operation demand that there be a market for billions of parts.  For reliability, one will never get past very low production and yield without the knowledge and ability to control the cleanliness of the manufacturing environment and material content.  It is very surprising that Dalibor has been able to achieve as much as he has demonstrated in such a short time.

 

If you study any high tech product, you either stay small and specialized or you get big and produce a incredible quantities for a market that is demanding it.  The reason that nixies were displaced in the first place is because there was market demand for a much more efficient, mass producible product such as the LED display.  Those did not happen overnight, either.  I was selling low performance LED displays in the 70’s which were still succeeding against nixies on reliability, but mostly on the ease of use in designs.  Nixies are a specialty that is for a niche market that is consuming them based on the look and is willing to pay a higher price for something unique.  In other words, I don’t see a mass market because I can’t name enough advantages for a Nixie display over another technology.  Business decisions are not made just because a product looks cool.  There are too many cons for use of Nixies in modern day commercial products.

 

There will, however, be a good market for Nixies among the hobby builders and retro aficionados.   The market could support a few operations like Dalibor’s. 

 

So, when someone comes up with a RELIABLE $25 nixie tube that looks good, I will buy a bunch.  And I would do it quickly because at that price, I know that the seller will run out of money very fast…

 

Jeff

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[JohnK]

I do not know how to properly applaud Dalibor. It seems such an empty thing coming from myself. I am just an observer.

However, I am so absolutely impressed with what he has done. It quite goes beyond the obsessive amateur radio guys filling a room with gear, the amateur scale-railroad enthusiasts who fill a workshop and make ride-on trains. We have all seen TV docos and interviews with such people.

Dalibor seems to have had an idea and made it into a dream and then is well on the way to realising that potential. He seems to have kept his feet on the ground.

Perhaps I feel this way because my wife and I have 10 minutes ago  [together] read the book "What do you do with an IDEA?", Kobi Yamada, illus Mae Besom, 2014. [Don't overlook another one by the pair - "What do you do with a problem?" and perhaps "The most Magnificent Thing", Ashely Spires.]

 

I know that there have been video snippets of Dalibor's work, but it warrants a full documentary.  I hope that there is someone in the loop who can do some Life Writing (to use the more modern term for a bio and auto-bio etc). And it needs to be done now, progressively, not in 20 years.

 

I think that the Japanese concept of "Living National Treasure" applies to Dalibor. "Well done, that man!" as the Brits might say.

His staff and family deserve some accolades too of course.

 

 

John Kaesehagen

Australia.

 

 

 

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Dalibor

To: neonixie-l

Sent: Friday, April 21, 2017 4:46 AM

Subject: [neonixie-l] Re: Manufacturing affordable large, new nixie tubes

--

[Malcolm Miles]

> I know that there have been video snippets of Dalibor's work,
> but it warrants a full documentary. 

The Art of Making a Nixie Tube
37 minutes of sheer amazement at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxL4ElboiuA

--
Best wishes,
Malcolm

[JohnK]

Yep, wonderful stuff and I was aware of it. By Dalibor's work I meant more
than the production -sorry, me being language-lazy. The tantalizing stills
at the start and of the move to the castle are more the thing I meant. A
complete "life of..." I guess :-)) The everyday things that don't get
recorded but are treasured later [and not just for their rarity].
It brings to mind bugs in an archaeology show we are getting at present. It
often uses "dig cam", that is the self filming by the teams. The vid is
fine, the audio is often atrocious. Seems they don't know about muffling
wind noise :-( What a missed opportunity!

John K

----- Original Message -----
From: "Malcolm Miles" <m...@tardis.net>
To: <neoni...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, April 21, 2017 9:22 PM
Subject: RE: [neonixie-l] Re: Manufacturing affordable large, new nixie
tubes

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[chuck richards]

Dalibor,

Thanks again for all that you do.

You obviously have devoted your whole life for the past several
years to the manufacturing of high-quality brand new large nixie
tubes.

There will always be some folks on the side-lines who want to
talk about and to theorize about "better" and "cheaper" methods
of tube production.

Not bloody likely!!

What you have accomplished is most remarkable!

I especially like reading the part where you explain that
computers and automation don't help much.

That is a fact that people who have never tried any production
methods will argue with. But, as you point out, once one actually
does their experiments and starts learning how to get it done, one
will find that computers and automation just can't cope with the
entire situation very well at all.

Again, congratulations to you and your entire team of dedicated
people!

Chuck

>
>
>---- Original Message ----
>From: dal...@farny.cz
>To: neoni...@googlegroups.com
>Subject: RE: [neonixie-l] Re: Manufacturing affordable large, new
>nixie tubes

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[Instrument Resources of America]

There are a LOT of WANNABE's out there that do NOT have the slightest
clue as to what is involved in such a venture!!! Ira.

[jb-electronics]

Wow, now we did it. Is that really the message we want to send to a person who is looking into making Nixie tubes?

I admire Dalibor for what he has achieved. Perhaps some of you remember that I tried the same and did not get far, this is my best "Nixie tube" I ever made:



But all of this aside, I ask you if these comments are really helpful? Calling somebody a "wannabe" in a disrespectful manner? I, for one, like people who "want to" achieve something. Don't you?

Cheers
Jens

[Aiden Koh]

Hi all:)

first of all, thank you so much Dalibor, what you do is truly amazing; much like everyone that has heard of you and your work, I'm really grateful for what you have brought to this great community. I hope in time to come, you can successfully expand this market and attract many more customers. There are definitely potential markets waiting for you in the emerging countries, especially when the "age of analog" is picking up pace in the new generation. Think turntables, instant cameras, Moleskine notebooks. (On this topic this bestselling book called " the revenge of analog" by David Sax, is great). 

Also to JohnK and neonjohn, I must thank you for opening me to the realities of real world manufacturing. I never really understood the difficulties that come with such manufacturing feats. I really do have a lot of ground to cover:D From what you guys have said, I understand that my approach is fundamentally flawed. (doing market research first before thinking about manufacturing feasibility.)

Anyways, I still believe it's doable to bring the nixie tubes into mainstream society:)

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[Paul Andrews]

Quite. Thankyou for saying this. Life is full of people saying why you can't do something. Achievements happen despite that and not because of it.

[Dylan Distasio]

I was thinking the same thing.  If he's not asking for funding and is open about the risks, let everyone have a shot.  It should be encouraged. 

That aside, I am anxiously awaiting my single tube clock using one of Dalibors beautiful tubes.  I had to settle for one tube for now.  I just got a Kickstarter update that the tubes have arrived!

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[Instrument Resources of America]

My statement was made with no disrespect, but you are free to interpret it any way that you see fit. Much is often lost in the printed word rather than the spoken word, which is why I always prefer to have an actual conversation. It was meant to be emphatic.  I still stick by it. These wannabe's should watch Dalibors' movie, more than once, perhaps if possible visit with Dalibor and see what it actually takes to do what he has accomplished. And accomplished he has, with a huge amount of success. But as already stated by others he has given YEARS of his life and GOBS of money to do what he has done, and I wish him much continued success as he certainly deserves it. IIRC he did not make a profit until February of this year. As for the wannabes, I'm not at all against anyone trying, so long as they know ahead of time what is realistic, and what is not. If Dalibor had not tried we wound not have his excellent tubes today. Who knows perhaps they will be able to produce a better product than Dalibor, but in my opinion probably not. Time will tell.  Ira.

On 4/22/2017 5:18 AM, Dylan Distasio wrote:

I was thinking the same thing.  If he's not asking for funding and is open about the risks, let everyone have a shot.  It should be encouraged. 

That aside, I am anxiously awaiting my single tube clock using one of Dalibors beautiful tubes.  I had to settle for one tube for now.  I just got a Kickstarter update that the tubes have arrived!

On Apr 21, 2017 11:39 PM, "jb-electronics" <webm...@jb-electronics.de> wrote:

Wow, now we did it. Is that really the message we want to send to a person who is looking into making Nixie tubes?

I admire Dalibor for what he has achieved. Perhaps some of you remember that I tried the same and did not get far, this is my best "Nixie tube" I ever made:

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[Paul Andrews]

I would buy that!

[Jeff Walton]

Any entrepreneur has to start with a passion for what they are trying to accomplish.  Without this, the only guarantee is failure.

 

The second hurdle is to develop a reliable, functional product that someone would want to purchase.

 

If you are lucky enough to get this far, then you can work on manufacturability and achieving a price point that will be supported by demand, and cover the cost of production, overhead and profit.  

 

Each of these steps are difficult and can take years of effort and subsidy but that is how products are born…  I give a lot of credit to those that make it to product launch and eventual profitability.

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[Instrument Resources of America]

You forgot the one most important thing for ANY product (or service), and that is a 'LARGE' enough base of buyers to support the endeavor. I'm pleasantly surprised that Dalibor can make it work, on what is most likely the buyers in this 'clock hobby' market place. I very seriously doubt that he has very many commercial/industrial, military, government, or consumer based, customers. And those four that I just listed is where most of the demand and therefore money comes from for any product or service. I do agree with the points you made though. And here is something else to think about. Assume for the moment that someone else is indeed successful at doing what Dalibor does. They also make Nixies, that are just as good as Dalibors in every respect. What has happened now is that TWO entities are now fighting for 'market share' of an infinitesimally small market place. The results would be,,,,,,,,,,,???????    Ira.

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[Terry Kennedy]

On Friday, April 21, 2017 at 11:52:37 PM UTC-4, Aiden Koh wrote:

Anyways, I still believe it's doable to bring the nixie tubes into mainstream society:)

There is no point in competing with the Russian sellers, since they have the ability to drop their prices below anything you can do - they're sitting on a large amount of stock and trickling them out at high prices because they can.

Similarly, there are probably enough B7971s out there that the sellers could drop below the cost of manufacturing new ones (that is probably already the case, actually).

Producing even a single tube of good quality / life is difficult and Dalibor has done an amazing job. Rather than producing a tube style to compete with him, perhaps try a rather different type. What I'd like to see is something unusual, like the F9020.

Even with the equipment and materials, there's a steep learning curve. Large portions of an original IN-18 production line, components, and work-in-progress were listed on eBay a few years back. Yet all IN-18s are still old stock. Something to consider.

[Roddy Scott]

$0.02 from Dalibor is worth a hell of a lot more when he is giving advice.

 

His success is documented along with all of the issues that he encountered from his initial idea to his present production method.

What others have said here in regards to starting up from scratch is valid as to produce a tube of reliable quality for $25:00 is almost an impossibility without a fully tried and tested production facility. Russian Nixie tubes were made in their millions by state sponsored factories to a low price standard that was acceptable to that time of manufacturing. European and US factories made Nixies in smaller quantities to a higher standard and hence the were a higher price but again they were fully funded manufacturing plants with a market for the products made.

To go about producing an IN-18 Nixie for $25:00 with todays labour costs would prove to be impossible, to produce a reliable version of an IN-18 that has a useable life span would entail years of production trials and testing and in doing so the cost of an individual unit would rise dramatically. Nixie tubes were produced from the 60s onwards until they were superceded by other display devices which made them obsolete. It is only the rise of clock building that has made a market for the existing stocks which, as already stated, are trickled out at high prices by those who hold them thus commanding premium prices for items that originally cost a fraction of their current cost.

Dalibor produces his excellent tubes at a price that reflects the effort and dedication that he has put into his business and those that purchase them know that they are receiving a product that has gone through rigorous trials, modification and testing before being released. 

Your ambition to enter into mass production and marketing of the Nixies you intend to produce is, to say the least, a risky thought as the monies required to fund it would far exceed any Kickstarter project yet in operation. To obtain and maintain fully operational manufacturing plant and the skilled personnel required to operate it would not be a viable proposition for the current market that requires Nixie tubes.

I worked in the microprocessor industry fro over 11 years and know the costs that are put into a functional production facility, costs that an individual could not hope to cover in a business start up from scratch.

Sorry to pour cold water on your idea but it is just not feasible.

[MichaelS]

Roddy's response pretty much sums everything up, I'm afraid.  Unless you can find a market for inexpensive mass-produced nixie tubes, you will fail.  I'd love to buy $25 in18 or larger tubes though and wish you good luck.