ZIN18 - New Nixie tube on Kickstarter

[Nicholas Stock]

ZIN18 - the new Nixie Tube & clocks

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1989465642/zin18-the-new-nixie-tube-and-clocks

Saw this.....hmm...

Sent from my iPhone

[Thomas Kummer]

It’d be nice to see some healthy competition on new nixies. While Dalibors are nice the price tag is what has kept me from buying them.

Sent from my iPhone

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[jb-electronics]

I honestly think that the pricing on Dalibor's Nixie tubes is more than
fair. Six hours of manual labour per tube, on average. Jens

[Nicholas Stock]

Agreed. These new ones are 100 dollars a pop for an IN18 size. If anything they’re priced more expensively than Dalibor’s....

However, competition drives innovation.

Sent from my iPhone

> To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/31c4c00f-c5df-8651-5d98-f91f7382def0%40jb-electronics.de.

[jb-electronics]

These IN-18 clones are really a great accomplishment and quite
impressive, no questions about that. The true challenge, if I understand
Dalibor's blog posts correctly, is the mass production for paying
customers. Streamlining the process is a real challenge as well. Let's
see. What a time to be alive! Jens

[Jeff Walton]

Interesting to look at the Millclock videos.  Very strikingly similar to Dalibor's process and techniques.  

There may be room for an IN-18 type tube to come to market but the pin configuration is very different and the base is excessively tall.  

Dalibor matched the Z568 pinout so that existing designs could use either.  His price is more in line with what a Z568 should sell for.  The ZIN18 is almost twice the going rate for an IN-18.  

It's taken Dalibor about 5 years to master the QC issues and he is very transparent about the obstacles that he has overcome.  I wonder how the Millclock startup will deal with the same physics.  

Having said that, I hope that we can see new nixie production at a good price point. 

Jeff 

[Dan Hollis]

Yep, these IN-18 are way too expenive, especially since they are still
widely available.

For only a couple hundred more you can get giant dalibor 568 tubes.

-Dan

On Fri, 8 Feb 2019, Jeff Walton wrote:

> Interesting to look at the Millclock videos.  Very strikingly similar to Dalibor's process and techniques.  There may be room for an IN-18 type tube to come to market but the pin configuration is very different and the base is excessively tall.  Dalibor matched the Z568 pinout so that existing designs could use either.  His price is more in line with what a Z568 should sell for.  The ZIN18 is almost twice the going rate for an IN-18.  It's taken Dalibor about 5 years to master the QC issues and he is very transparent about the obstacles that he has overcome.  I wonder how the Millclock startup will deal with the same physics.  Having said that, I hope that we can see new nixie production at a good price point. Jeff 

> -------- Original message --------From: jb-electronics <webm...@jb-electronics.de> Date: 2/8/19 10:52 PM (GMT-06:00) To: neoni...@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [neonixie-l] I honestly think that the pricing on Dalibor's Nixie tubes is more than fair. Six hours of manual labour per tube, on average. JensOn 2019-02-08 9:50 p.m., Thomas Kummer wrote:> It’d be nice to see some healthy competition on new nixies. While Dalibors are nice the price tag is what has kept me from buying them.>> Sent from my iPhone>>> On Feb 8, 2019, at 22:36, Nicholas Stock <nick...@gmail.com> wrote:>>>> ZIN18 - the new Nixie Tube & clocks>>>> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1989465642/zin18-the-new-nixie-tube-and-clocks>>>> Saw this.....hmm...>>>> Sent from my iPhone

>
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[Jon]

Impressed with the technical achievement, and great to see the manufacturing video. We should salute these guys just as we do Dalibor.

I actually think the price point of $100 for any new manufactured nixie is very fair taking into account the labour involved in producing each tube and the equipment investment/R&D required to get to the point of being able to make and sell the first tube. The question in my mind on this one is more about what that new nixie is for the money, and how it fits with the competition - not sure it's smart to pretty much go head to head with NOS IN-18 which are readily available at half the price with a well established performance / reliability profile. Doesn't seem the most impactful use of all of the admirable expertise and capability. This is where Dalibor has got it absolutely right - there simply aren't very many Z5680 around at any price to effectively compete with him.

If I were these guys, I'd turn the attention to producing a more differentiated tube - maybe a 60mm digit height. Assuming of course that there isn't a fundamental availability / price problem with the raw materials for that.

Jon.

[Paul Andrews]

I agree with Jeff about the size of the base, and it does seem odd that they are priced at more than the IN-18. Do Millclok know something we don’t?

However, it is still good to see new tubes being made.

[Jon]

PS... Perhaps a mod could give this thread a meaningful title?

[gregebert]

Considering only 3 USD has been pledged so far, they have a long way to go and there isn't a lot of confidence from investors.

They should have several batches of tubes running thru burn-in, and I did not see that in the video; I dont know how they can backup a 15 year warranty if tube lifetime is unknown.

I would be running several tubes at elevated current & temperature.

[Paul Andrews]

Yesterday there was around $390 pledged. I wasn't aware that an investor could back out? If Millclock decide not to go ahead with this particular tube, I hope they do go ahead with something.

[Alic]

Dalibor’s tube is the cheapest in that digit size category.
Millclock’s tube is expensive compared to todays price of the IN-18 but I think that back when it was made the price was higher than that and the IN-18 was produced in huge quantities.

Also, the Millclcok nixie has electronics in the base if I have read the campaign correctly.

[Kevin A.]

I just pledged for 1 tube.

Interested to see where this goes, and if he delivers or not.

When/if I get it I'll be sure to share the details with everyone!

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[alb.001 alb.001]

I have a set of a ratchet driver and sockets that were sold by the largest department store in Canada - Eaton's  which offered a lifetime warrantee on this product.  I still use it but store is long gone - just like Sears    there is no warrantee service available any more.  Giving a 15 year guarantee on an untested product is just smoke and of no value. What if the seller changes their company name and they no longer exit ?  They might still use the same address and contact information but they no longer "exist"   I have this very issue with the company that built my house  - they changed their name and when I called about poor quality they answered the phone but said they were now a "different company" and did not do warrantee service under their first name, and then they blocked me from calling them any more.

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[Kevin A.]

I would be dubious about the 15 year warranty, but we'll see how responsive he is as far as customer support. I'd like to be optimistic and think that most people who are into nixies are because they like nixie tubes and not because they are out to scam people in a boutique market.

[SWISSNIXIE - Jonathan F.]

Looks professional, lets see how this comes out. The original IN-18 was manufactured in Sovejet Union in the town of Rovno, which is now ukraine... as far as i know, the last IN-18 were made in 1992, only 26 years ago. There might be the possibilty that they found people that actually were working in the IN-18 factory and have knowledge about these tubes.... but its just a wild guess..

[Tony]

There was a large quantity of what was claimed to be IN-18 production
equipment and consumables offered (for an absurdly high price) on ebay
a few years back - it was dicussed on here at the time but the current
price of tubes made uneconomical to consider.
Maybe if they bought or had access to that, it would have provided a
base from which to build production. Note that these are pinch seal
tubes though, not pin bases, going by their size..

Tony.

[Jeff Walton]

I did a question on Kickstarter to the builders about the tubes.  I suggested that since they are using a PCB base that it would be more attractive to offer a pinout equivalent to the IN-18 in the circular pin outline instead of the two straight rows.  This way the tubes could be used in existing designs.  His response:

 

Hello,
I think we will present the version with circular pin pattern for the lovers of IN-18 tubes. It will be special offer.  Thank you

 

I am thinking that they are initially wanting to sell their clocks and thus the proprietary pin-out.  It doesn’t seem to be the most practical business approach but credit for trying to keep the art of nixies alive.

 

Jeff

[Alic]

The campaign offers 1, 4 or 6 tubes for a “personal project”.
On Facebook Millclock said that even with the electronics in the base, the tubes can be used directly without their software just like a conventional nixie.
So it’s not as proprietary as I expected.

The normal IN-18 socket compatibility is good news. Maybe now I will pledge for one tube in the end.
I wasn’t interested in a miniature Zen clock...

[John Rehwinkel]

 

I am thinking that they are initially wanting to sell their clocks and thus the proprietary pin-out.  It doesn’t seem to be the most practical business approach but credit for trying to keep the art of nixies alive.

This verbiage on their page makes me think they have a driver in the base, so they might not require separate high voltage drivers, maybe just serial data or somesuch, making them easy to integrate with microcontrollers, but of course not compatible with ordinary bare nixies.

"To make ZIN18 tubes smarter, the Z class base has been upgraded to a smart-base. Each base has a seating that consists of a programmable circuit mini board to control the lamp. "

- John

[Jeff Walton]

Anything in the base other than the ability to modify the pinout is too complicated.  In $100 nixie, do you want a 50 cent, esd sensitive part controlling the useful life of the tube?  The base is already too tall and if it's because of a funky circuit, it's a mistake. 

-------- Original message --------

From: 'John Rehwinkel' via neonixie-l <neoni...@googlegroups.com>

Date: 2/10/19 4:57 PM (GMT-06:00)

To: neoni...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [neonixie-l] ZIN18

[Jeff Walton]

I'd be OK with a smart socket but not built-in to a $100 nixie... 

Jeff

-------- Original message --------

From: 'John Rehwinkel' via neonixie-l <neoni...@googlegroups.com>

Date: 2/10/19 4:57 PM (GMT-06:00)

To: neoni...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [neonixie-l] ZIN18

[Kevin A.]

I guess we'll find out how well this was implemented. From what I can tell the pinout on the tube looks like a Male 1mm DIP arrangement with a standard 2.54mm pitch. 

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[Invar]

Hello,
We sell tubes ( NOS Soviet tubes)from 2013 year and are for 6 years on the market.
We decided to make a Nixie tube a long time ago, and we need few years to test all before presentation.
So we want to have reputation and our reputation is important thing for us.
About pinout, design, sizes, of course, we will develop something according customers feedbacks.
Thank you for feedbacks and support.

[Invar]

The price on IN-18 will change of course, and nobody will give you a warranty.
What we see last years on the market quality of IN-18 isn’t good, cos of the bad storage or just pulled off from the old equipment.
We just offer something new and good working.

[Invar]

Thank you for your feedback, for now we start with this tube.

[Invar]

This pinout was made for customer project, so you don’t need to but expensive sockets for tubes.
Thank you

[Paul Andrews]

Just backed it. Good luck reaching your goal.

[Invar]

Thank you for your trust.

If any questions, please contact us.

суббота, 16 февраля 2019 г., 14:12:12 UTC+3 пользователь Paul Andrews написал:

[Jeff Walton]

The information and videos on kickstarter show a very interesting process and result.  It is encouraging to see efforts like this to revive the manufacturing of nixies.  

The choice of IN-18 size digits is good, if you were picking an existing tube to offer.  The size of the metal base seems too tall.  It appears that there may be more in the base than just pins and a PCB.  The proprietary socket arrangement may be good for the specific clock that you are offering but the idea of putting inexpensive and ESD sensitive chips into the base of a $100 nixie tube is a negative in my opinion.  

I think that you should consider having an option for a tube that is just a nixie that can drop-in existing applications for the IN-18.  It would seem that 99% of your work is produce a beautiful tube and the effort to offer a standard pinout with direct interface to the nixie would require little extra effort.  Could you reduce the height of the metal base by simplifying or does the glass pinch seal really take this much extra height? 

-------- Original message --------

From: Invar <vital...@gmail.com>

Date: 2/16/19 4:35 AM (GMT-06:00)

To: neonixie-l <neoni...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: [neonixie-l] ZIN18

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[Дмитрий Шевченко]

Hello, friends.

Not so long ago, I developed a business plan for the production of nixie tubes.

The cost of organizing production is $ 63500 when placed on the territory of Russia. 

Payback period 38 months. 

Profit Rate 16%

If you interesting, I will put buisness plan here. Because I search for investment.

P.S.

On kickstarter possible fake account.

Olga Kurilenko are Ukrainian actress. She is woman, but profile's photo are man. :-)

On the kickstarter  denied placement from Russia and Ukraine.

сб, 16 февр. 2019 г. в 17:29, Jeff Walton <jwalt...@gmail.com>:

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[Invar]

Hello,

we will discuss it with team about the nixie base.

I think we will come to the conclusion in the future and will reporesent spomething new in the metall base of the tube.

Thank ypou

суббота, 16 февраля 2019 г., 17:29:33 UTC+3 пользователь Jeff Walton написал:

[Jeff Walton]

Maybe there is confusion.  There is a Kickstater campaign for ZIN18 nixie tube production by millclock.   It has a very detailed presentation and videos of tube manufacturing.  My comments were for that campaign and information. 

-------- Original message --------

From: Дмитрий Шевченко <mikron.z...@gmail.com>

Date: 2/16/19 9:14 AM (GMT-06:00)

To: neoni...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [neonixie-l] ZIN18

Hello, friends.

Not so long ago, I developed a business plan for the production of nixie tubes.

The cost of organizing production is $ 63500 when placed on the territory of Russia. 

Payback period 38 months. 

Profit Rate 16%

If you interesting, I will put buisness plan here. Because I search for investment.

P.S.

On kickstarter possible fake account.

Olga Kurilenko are Ukrainian actress. She is woman, but profile's photo are man. :-)

On the kickstarter  denied placement from Russia and Ukraine.

The information and videos on kickstarter show a very interesting process and result.  It is encouraging to see efforts like this to revive the manufacturing of nixies.  

The choice of IN-18 size digits is good, if you were picking an existing tube to offer.  The size of the metal base seems too tall.  It appears that there may be more in the base than just pins and a PCB.  The proprietary socket arrangement may be good for the specific clock that you are offering but the idea of putting inexpensive and ESD sensitive chips into the base of a $100 nixie tube is a negative in my opinion.  

I think that you should consider having an option for a tube that is just a nixie that can drop-in existing applications for the IN-18.  It would seem that 99% of your work is produce a beautiful tube and the effort to offer a standard pinout with direct interface to the nixie would require little extra effort.  Could you reduce the height of the metal base by simplifying or does the glass pinch seal really take this much extra height? 

Hello,
We sell tubes ( NOS Soviet tubes)from 2013 year and are for 6 years on the market.
We decided to make a Nixie tube a long time ago, and we need few years to test all before presentation.
So we want to have reputation and our reputation is important thing for us.
About pinout, design, sizes, of course, we will develop something according customers feedbacks.
Thank you for feedbacks and support.

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[Дмитрий Шевченко]

Olga in Eastern Europe is a woman name, not man name. Man, ( not woman ) on photo.

https://www.kickstarter.com/profile/1989465642

Profile from Ukraine, not Norway.

He set Norway profile, because Ukraine not in the list available for kickstarter.

You must Be careful.

Ask for their documents, such as passports, driver’s licenses and bank accounts.

сб, 16 февр. 2019 г. в 19:41, Jeff Walton <jwalt...@gmail.com>:

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[Dekatron42]

There is also this website which shows an office in the US as well as Ukraine: https://millclock.com/contacts and a lot of phone numbers and other means of contact.

What I am missing is the 100% openness when you ask for details.

/Martin

[Invar]

My dear friend Dmitry,
Olga is our representative in Norway, and she responsible for the project.
As you know kickstarter need all documents( passport, bank and other documents) before launch the project.
First the money get the Kickstarter, not the creator.
A little bit facts:
1) a year ago we launched a project for Nixie tube watch and it was successfull, all rewards sent and there was no claims.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1989465642/moonracer-by-millclock-futuristic-steampunk-nixie/updates
2) our store: millclock.com
Yes, we can take correspondence in New York.
3) our store on ebay with more than 1500 Feedbacks:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/IN-14-NIXIE-TUBE-CLOCK-ASSEMBLED-ACRYLIC-ENCLOSURE-ADAPTER-6-tubes-by-MILLCLOCK-/112219546755?nav=SEARCH
4) the same store with feedbacks on Etsy:
https://www.etsy.com/shop/Millclock
5) we started the Nixie tube sale 6 years ago.
In this group you can ask about it Dieter Wachter
6) Dmitry your name and surname are in high use in Ukraine and Russia too.
Thank you

[Dekatron42]

Thanks, this is the kind of openness that I was thinking for. It would have been good to have had these references on the Kickstarter page to begin with, or presented here at the forum and on Facebook and other channels where people will come across you and your products.

Kickstarter has sometimes had some troublesome campaigns and that makes me cautious on backing projects and therefore I am always looking for openness from the people behind the campaign - now I am not up to date on Kickstarter policies so you might have been forbidden to show your connections to other sites there, but if not go ahead and put the information there please.

Coincidences like that your Olga almost has the same surname as the famous actor are things that make people like me cautious of fake campaigns.

I just spotted this on your profile over at Kickstarter for the watch - would have loved this information in the text on the ZIN-18 camoaign:

"There 5 people behind the creative Millclock team. Olga is a strategy maker and marketing adventurer. Igor (picture above) is a main futurist and The dreamer, he is the reason this watch is dreamed of and created. Dmitriy is our hero futurist who connects ancient tubes into a seamless and one-of-a-kind design. Andrey makes logistics and delivery go smoothly and accurate. Just like our dream watch does.

For quite a while now, we have been exploring the ways how the nearly forgotten unique industrial material kan be used in futuristic steampunk design. The time has come to present the world with the Moonracer! Our excitement is as large as to the moon and BACK!"

/Martin

[Invar]

Thank you for your answer.
We are an open company, if you have questions, let us know for it.
Thank you.

[Ian Sparkes]

I know quite a lot of the back story to this: I worked on a business plan to see if it was worth investing into it, and came to the conclusion that it was not necessary. If anyone wants to see the business plan, contact me.

[Дмитрий Шевченко]

Yan. You know, that you done this business plan with me. Why you ignored my email letters, when I wrote to you?

You just disappeared and stopped responding.

Are you want to sale my done work? Or already sold it?

Regards,

Dmitry Shevchenko

пт, 1 мар. 2019 г. в 14:29, Ian Sparkes <ian.s...@gmail.com>:

I know quite a lot of the back story to this: I worked on a business plan to see if it was worth investing into it, and came to the conclusion that it was not necessary. If anyone wants to see the business plan, contact me.

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[Дмитрий Шевченко]

Ian Sparkes!

You know, that you done this business plan with me. Why you ignored my email letters, when I wrote to you?

You just disappeared and stopped responding.

Are you want to sale my done work? Or already sold it?

Regards,

Dmitry Shevchenko

пт, 1 мар. 2019 г. в 16:16, Дмитрий Шевченко <mikron.z...@gmail.com>:

[jb-electronics]

Perhaps this open platform is not the best place to discuss this, folks.

Cheers

Jens

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[Ian Sparkes]

Sorry Dmitry, the reasons this: the risk of doing business in Russia - where I don't have any representative, and in an unknown business, where I don't speak the language - made it not worth continuing with FOR ME. I would be funding this with my own personal money, and I couldn't find a plan that made payback in 5 years. I validated what I could about the process, and you clearly know your business. But for me, it did not make financial sense.

I wish you the best, and I would happily be a customer of yours, if you will deal with me. I think you made the right choice to crowdfund: It's a great way of knowing if the demand is there. I think I suggested this to you, didn't I?

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[Jeff Walton]

Perhaps private disputes are not appropriate for this forum…  Moderator?

 

 

 

From: neoni...@googlegroups.com [mailto:neoni...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of ??????? ????????
Sent: Friday, March 1, 2019 7:17 AM
To: neoni...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [neonixie-l] ZIN18

 

Yan. You know, that you done this business plan with me. Why you ignored my email letters, when I wrote to you?

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[William RUTLAND]

I agree, not appropriate. 

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/neonixie-l/5c797e3f.1c69fb81.a0a19.671a%40mx.google.com.

For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--

Mike

KN4GGM

[Invar]

This topic is about The New Nixie Tube in the world.

Thank you for understanding.

пятница, 1 марта 2019 г., 16:18:52 UTC+3 пользователь Dmitry Shevchenko написал:

[John Smout]

I am a moderator of this group. Normally I would defer to Nick de Smith to moderate, but I know that he is travel(l)ing right now, in places where the internet may not be so accessible.

Could people please not air their personal grievances directly on this forum. I have put a few people on moderated posts, which in future will have to go through me first until the dust settles. I hope any disagreements may be resolved amicably among those responsible.

I wish everyone my very best wishes and I am sure we all look forward to hearing about any new nixie production developments in due course,

John S
Moderator

[Invar]

Thank you, John.

We dont have any thoughts why Dmitry and Ian publish their private notes here.

We just placed a link to our product on Kickstarter platform.

So please refer questions according the theme.

Thank you

суббота, 2 марта 2019 г., 0:48:27 UTC+3 пользователь Nixcited delighted написал: