Re: [neonixie-l] Re: trigger tube equivilents

[bobhar...@gmail.com]

hi Martin thanks for the reply yes I did tie the triggers together and replaced the 16 if cap will double check all the other components and check the anode current thanks bob

Sent from my HTC

----- Reply message -----
From: "Dekatron42" <martin....@gmail.com>
To: <neoni...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [neonixie-l] Re: trigger tube equivilents
Date: Sat, Feb 15, 2014 12:32

Did you wire both trigger electrodes together, the Z660W have two trigger 
electrodes but the ER32 only one.

You must also check that the minimum anode current is 5mA as the Z660W 
might otherwise work unreliably in some situation according to the 
datasheet.

You might also have to check the capacitor connected to the anode as well 
as the anode resistor as those form the circuit that extinguishes the 
trigger tube, turning it off, and if they do not work properly the tube 
might not be fully extinguished and then it will turn on again - the 
capacitor might leaky opr any of the other capacitors/resistors surrounding 
this trigger tube might be leaky or having the wrong value.

Also don't forget to replace resistors with types that can handle the 
voltage in these circuits, many cheap resistors sold today only tolerate 
125V or 250V which won't do in circuits like these!

/Martin

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[bob harper]

ok i have checked all the resistors around this tube and replaced all caps still no good...i have doing a bit of reading cold cathode tubes my dance and circuit design by neal [free book downloads] and it seems to me that this circuit would need a pulse to fire and be extinguished by the 16uf cap charging, but with a permantly live trigger this cycle would repeat [exactly what its doing] which will not do the tube much good as the trigger voltage should be removed before the anode voltage [if i read it right] so i think either the diagram is wrong [unlikely] or the switching on the jukebox has been altered/bodged i thought about using the switched live K3 to feed a relay and timing capacitor to give a pulse to the tube unless there is a way of again using a capacitor in the trigger circuit to charge up between the trigger and cathode to give them the same potential while the tube is in the conducting state.....bob

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[Grahame Marsh]

Bob

I also think that the applied voltage to the resistor in the anode circuit has to be lower than the voltage needed for the anode-cathode to strike itself.  If higher then the R-C-tube will act as a relaxtion oscillator.  The voltage must be higher than the voltage that will fire the anode-cathode gap when the tube when the grid is triggered (which must be the case now).  The capacitor then provides the energy to operate the solinoid and will discharge to a low voltage and the tube will self extinguish.  So you might compare the voltage with the datasheet (which I don't have) to check it is below the anode-cathode firing voltage.  And/or disconnect the trigger signal and see if the tube continues to flash - ie it is acting as a relaxation oscillator and not being triggered.

I have some Z700U, if you would like a couple PM me with your address.

Grahame

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[Dekatron42]

The trigger should not stay on, the capacitor before the trigger electrode should only produce a pulse, unless there is a leakage current flowing to the trigger through this capacitor. You can test this by lowering the 22M resistor to ground to lets say 10M and see if the circuit behaves in a similar way, I have seen circuits with even lower resistor values down to just 2.2M. You might have to change the type of capacitor used and use a type similar to the ones in the original circuit.

There are also some small differences between the ER32 and the Z660W that you use that might affect the circuit, the Z661W is a closer replacement according to the RFT databook.

/Martin

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[Dekatron42]

There are 9 ER32's for sale on eBay right now, looks used from the photo but it says new in the auction text, the auction is for just one piece but the seller says he has 9 for sale.

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Kaltkathodenrohren-Rohre-Elektronenrohre-ELESTA-ER-32-/380850336785?pt=DE_TV_Video_Audio_Sonstige&hash=item58ac72f411

/Martin

[Instrument Resources of America]

On CLOSE examination, I note that all of the insulating sleeves are
discolored, and the discoloration becomes darker the closer you get to
the base of the tube. I would guess that the discoloration is from being
exposed to long hours of heat from the tube. One insulating sleeve is
also cracked, which to me is another indication of long hours of heat,
possibly age, and probably 'reckless handling' when being removed from
the circuit that it was soldered into. Which brings me to my last and
final point. Note the solder, on the only two leads that are visible in
the photo. If it is new where is the box that it came in, with the name
Elesta and the number ER-32 clearly labeled on the box? I did go and
search on Google for an "image" of 'ER-32', and 'ER-32 trigger', and
'ER-32 trigger tube', to no avail. Also searched on Frank.pocnet.net,
and also Jeremy H. Harmers collection on line for some sort of a photo
of hopefully a new one, but to no avail. My collection of over 5000
tubes, does not have an example. I'm a member of Tube Collerctors
Association, TCA, so I'll ask there for you as well. Looks used to me.
I would certainly communicate the above observations and concerns to the
seller. His feedback is quite good, so hopefully you will get some
honest answers to your concerns. On the other hand he clearly states in
the ad text, NO GUARANTY, NO RETURN, if my German is till good enough.
Why is that if the tube is NEW?? Good luck, and let us know how you
make out. I guess that if you went ahead and bought it, and it arrived
to you and was obviously USED, you could file a claim with Ebay to get
your funds back, but that's a long and messy process. Ira.

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[Dekatron42]

There were 50 sold s few weeks ago on Ebay UK : http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/vintage-capacitors-x-50-small-ER32-A-ELESTA-new-swiss-15-fuse-amp-/261386179279?nma=true&si=tnNIKXvFcb6%252FkXHteD2N2XwObYM%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557 perhaps someone can contact that seller and see if he has more information/photos.

/Martin

[Instrument Resources of America]

From the photos you can see that they did NOT come with any
insulating sleeves on the wire leads. The leads are also quite straight.
They appear to be tinned, with no large ugly blobs of solder on the ends
of the leads. They are in a factory original carton. Just about what I
would expect for NEW. Ira.

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[bobhar...@gmail.com]

hi thanks for the info. Will keep my eye on it. Bob

Sent from my HTC

----- Reply message -----
From: "Dekatron42" <martin....@gmail.com>
To: <neoni...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [neonixie-l] Re: trigger tube equivilents

Date: Tue, Feb 25, 2014 07:03

There are 9 ER32's for sale on eBay right now, looks used from the photo 
but it says new in the auction text, the auction is for just one piece but 
the seller says he has 9 for sale.

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Kaltkathodenrohren-Rohre-Elektronenrohre-ELESTA-ER-32-/380850336785?pt=DE_TV_Video_Audio_Sonstige&hash=item58ac72f411

/Martin

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