Dalibor's Nixie tube: R|Z568M

[jb-electronics]

Hi folks,

find some pictures and details on Dalibor's R|Z568M on my website:
http://www.jb-electronics.de/html/elektronik/nixies/n_rz568m.htm?lang=en

It is an amazing tube, and it is of remarkable quality. Currently,
Dalibor has listed an auction for six of them (with brushed aluminum
base) on Ebay #271765099601, 4 days left and at $495. Let's see...

Enjoy
Jens

[Terry S]

It's extraordinary. Dalibor, when does volume production begin? We're all going to want these tubes. How many do you need to build in a batch to get the price down to say, $50 / tube?

Terry

[Greg P]

Nice write up Jens.....

Let's hope Dalibor makes a resurrected CD-47 tube next. 

[Dalibor]

Thank You Jens for promo, I am glad You like the tube!

Terry S: As for the volume production, I do my best, but I am not able to produce more than 10-15 tubes per month. I develop various equipment (pumping systems, induction heaters, power supplies, testers, fixtures, jigs...) or procedures (pumping times, material behaviour in vacuum test, lifetime tests...) most of the time , the manufacture itself takes less than half of actual working time.

As for the price, $50 is unfortunately unrealistic target. Lets take USA manufacturer National as an example, they sold a NL-7037 (50mm digit tube) for USD 19/each (if You took 100+ pcs) in 1969. When we take the inflation, the actual price in today's value of USD would be $122/each. They produced large amounts of tubes by then, using automated machines for all the manufacture steps except the inner system assembly - this decreased the price significantly, but despite this fact, it was still expensive. And now imagine that I make all the steps by hand, spending really lot of time on every tube. Also every piece of the vacuum related equipment is very expensive (e.g. new turbo pump I use $4k, roughing pump $2k, gauge $1.5k...), so covering this from income from the tubes is practically imposible.

Referenced pricelist: http://www.tube-tester.com/sites/nixie/dat_arch/National_price.pdf

Greg P: I already have some plans for bigger tube, but it will take some time to make it real ;-)

Best regards,

Dalibor Farny

[David Forbes]

Dalibor,

It seems to me that every tube you make takes about the same amount of
work as my Nixie watches, which I sell for $500 apiece. I make about the
same quantity per month.

By the way, your tubes are true works of art.

On 2/9/15 5:15 AM, Dalibor wrote:
> Thank You Jens for promo, I am glad You like the tube!
>
> Terry S: As for the volume production, I do my best, but I am not able
> to produce more than 10-15 tubes per month. I develop various equipment
> (pumping systems, induction heaters, power supplies, testers, fixtures,
> jigs...) or procedures (pumping times, material behaviour in vacuum
> test, lifetime tests...) most of the time , the manufacture itself takes
> less than half of actual working time.
>
> As for the price, $50 is unfortunately unrealistic target. >

> Dalibor Farny


--
David Forbes, Tucson AZ

[Terry S]

Dalibor, of course that was a dream price.... :-)

 

However, it does make one wonder -- if there is a tube vendor that you could license to produce the tube in higher quantities, more efficiently, probably even with a higher yeild and lower costs. The problem would of course be -- that after a few thousand tubes, perhaps a single production run, the market would be saturated for a long time.

 

Terry

[Nick]

Hi Dalibor - just to add, I think that your price is fair - you need to live, and its a manually-intensive & highly skilled job that you're doing... people need to realise that.

Just for the record, why are you using a TM pump? surely a cheaper diffusion pump would be fine along with a suitable softer-vacuum backing pump?

Nick

[Dalibor]

Nick: Hi, I use TM because I was lucky to get few for reasonable price from local bancrupted research company, together with all the accessories. Diff pump are much cheaper, they need practically no maintenance (when used right way), but they it takes much longer time to start it up and also the cool down. TM is more flexible in this way and saves a lot of time, especially during development. And TM pump also provides oil-free operation, which is good, but essential matter in nixie tube making.

Terry S: I think if there is any tube vendor  interested in nixie tube manufacture, they will know how to make it without me ;-) I think the problem is, that the amount of tubes which would saturate the market is quite low. Say 10.000 tubes for $100/pc = $1M, this would not cover the costs of specialised automated machines.. Sealing and pumping machines had capacities of hundreds tubes per hour.. That would mean few days of manufacture ;-) It will more likely stay in hands of people, from assembly to sealing and pumping.. Once local audio tube manufacturer sold tubes for around $2M per year (2008 or so), and they still make all the steps by hands, no automation.

Nixiebunny: Hi David, thank for sharing this information!

Regards,

Dalibor

Dne úterý 10. února 2015 17:46:20 UTC+1 Nick napsal(a):

[Nick]

On Wednesday, 11 February 2015 11:28:07 UTC, Dalibor wrote:

Nick: Hi, I use TM because I was lucky to get few for reasonable price from local bancrupted research company, together with all the accessories. Diff pump are much cheaper, they need practically no maintenance (when used right way), but they it takes much longer time to start it up and also the cool down. TM is more flexible in this way and saves a lot of time, especially during development. And TM pump also provides oil-free operation, which is good, but essential matter in nixie tube making.

Hi Dalibor - thanks for the feedback. I have no doubt that a TM is a lot faster & cleaner, but they do spin ever so fast and still need maintenance...

Diff pumps with suitable low vapour-pressure oil, e.g. a polyphenyl ether, which is changed/maintained properly should be fine - no oil should get back to the glass if you get the sequencing right and the bombarding (or equivalent) should remove any potential organic matter - I can't see that more than a few molecules should ever get back to the tube... Modern multi-stage diffusion pumps with a cold-trap will reach 10x10-13 atm, which is far far below what we need - 

When nixies were commercially manufactured, did Burroughs/National etc. use TM or diffusion pumping?

Cheers

Nick

[Dalibor Farný]

Hi,

TM maintanance is quite expensive (bearings), but it lasts quite long
time. If You want to use polyphenyl ether (Santovac?) You will have to
pay quite a lot of for it. The same with cold trap - liquid nitrogen
on the site necessary (or cooling device).. But as I mentioned, the
oil molecules are not a problem for nixie manufacture. I use bake out
in oven followed by induction heating of the internal parts (no
bombardment), so even if there is some oil, it will break down.
10E-10 mbar is a dream, but it needs a NASA-like lab ;-)

I guess they used diff pumps, at least Tesla did. I found that the
pressure in small audio tubes just before seal-off was 10E-2 mbar
(quite poor vacuum), then the getter was flashed and got the tube to
~10E-7 torr. Big transmitting tubes were made on different machines,
pumped long times to proper vacuum (10E-6 mbar) using cold traps..

Dalibor

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[John Rehwinkel]

> Nick: Hi, I use TM because I was lucky to get few for reasonable price from local bancrupted research company, together with all the accessories. Diff pump are much cheaper, they need practically no maintenance (when used right way), but they it takes much longer time to start it up and also the cool down. TM is more flexible in this way and saves a lot of time, especially during development. And TM pump also provides oil-free operation, which is good, but essential matter in nixie tube making.

TM pumps are noisy beasts, but they really do manage excellent volume at low pressure. Maintenance is pretty simple, just lube the gears every few months I think. Their monstrous capacity (I used to work with a small one that could manage 1200 liters per second) lets you get 10E-6 torr fairly quickly with a small enclosure and not a lot of special effort. With a little effort, some time, and maybe an ion pump or two to help, you can get 10E-8 torr.

I got tired of the constant noise, so I built a box to cover ours out of acoustical tile. It helped a lot. The thing was quieter after it got lubricated too, so I'd do it 3-4x a year instead of 2.

- John

[Nick]

None of this seems really necessary - the research I've been doing implies that 1 micron (10-3 Torr) is enough for a pump-down and that should be achieved in just a few minutes.

I can see the need, just maybe, for a TM pump if working on an industrial scale (or if someone gives you one!), but assuming at best I need 10-4 to 10-5 Torr, I'll stick with a fairly normal molecular diffusion pump and suitable multi-stage backing.

Nick

[JohnK]

Maybe I am missing something when it comes to the way this works, but, when it is not a vacuum as is required for a valve/tube then what about the idea of pump a bit, add some of the eventual gas, pump again etc. The original impurities would distribute 'evenly' through the added gas and when it was pumped out a percentage of that older pollutant would be removed again. Thus it seems to me that a quite 'feeble' pump can do the job when the eventual fill is a gas [even if at a lowish pressure].

 

John K

Australia

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[gregebert]

In theory that would work if impurities were only gases, but many impurities are not gaseous and require heat to be released from the glass and metal surfaces.

I've seen methods described where neon tubes are heated and gas is passed from one end to the other to remove impurities with bombarding.

The reason I never got into neon art was the bombarding process (cooking-out impurities with high-voltage @ lethal current) is too dangerous for my taste.

[Nick]

On Thursday, 12 February 2015 14:20:39 UTC, johnk wrote:



Maybe I am missing something when it comes to the way this works, but, when it is not a vacuum as is required for a valve/tube then what about the idea of pump a bit, add some of the eventual gas, pump again etc. The original impurities would distribute 'evenly' through the added gas and when it was pumped out a percentage of that older pollutant would be removed again. Thus it seems to me that a quite 'feeble' pump can do the job when the eventual fill is a gas [even if at a lowish pressure]

There are many issues involved in making tubes, and getting the right pressure and gas mix is just a small part. The glass, and all the other mechanical components, contain impurities that have to be removed during manufacture else they will taint the behaviour and life-span of the finished tube.

Impurities are found in all components, - moisture and other organic and non-organic contaminants will even embed in the glass walls and survive the initial chemical cleaning phases - these contaminants have to be baked out under a decent vacuum, typically around 1 micron (10-3 Torr) which is about 1/750,000 of an atmosphere. Whilst this sounds like a high vacuum, its actually pretty easy to obtain with straight-forward kit. A TM pump is distinctly over-kill (several orders of magnitude better), but, hey, if you have one, then flaunt it baby! (slight paraphrase there from Zero Mostel!).

Even small levels of contaminants will cause quality problems.To avoid this, the tube is baked (various techniques exist for this) to release the contaminants whilst being pumped to about 10-3 Torr - the pumps remove almost all the cr*p. Then the pumps are sealed off and an amount of the highly pure nobel gas being used is let back in - in the case of nixies, this will be about 99% neon and 1% argon at a pressure of about 30 Torr - about 1/25th of atmospheric pressure - and the tubulation is sealed.

The above is a very simple explanation - it does not explain about induction heating or "Bombardment" or how mercury is introduced etc. but the principles are the same.

Nick

[gregebert]

Ebay auction for 6 of Dalibor's tubes closed at $1397 (US) so supply/demand market forces are going to keep these beauties out of reach from the rest of us for awhile, and hopefully long enough that he can recover the time and money he's invested getting this far. Congratulations are definitely in-order and well-deserved, Dalibor.

Someday I will bid on 4 of them.....I just need to figure out how much I'm willing to shell-out.

[Dalibor Farný]

Hello,

from my experience, when I stop pumping before achieving 10E-6 torr
range, the tube will have too high striking voltage and will not work
well because of impurities. This pressure is on the gauge, not actuall
pressure in the tube which may be an order higher. It is also specific
for my pumping system, it might be different on other systems.
Impurities actually have big impact on striking voltage, 10E-3 torr
pressure before filling is not enough. Nick described it pretty well,
no need to write more.. Just one thing - there is HUGE amount of
moisture in the glass envelope which will stay here until You heat it
over 150C, there is also a lot of trapped air in stainless steel, some
organic stuff and so.. But the moisture makes 95% of all the
impurities..

As for the auction, the price exceeded my expectations and it would be
good if it stays there for some time of course ;-) But not because of
my wallet.. I plan to make a documentary about how are the tubes made.
I wanted to shoot it myself, but I have no time to do it.. So, I will
hire a freelancer to shoot the documentary and cover the expenses from
income from the tubes.

Thank You!

Dalibor

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[Nick]

On Friday, 13 February 2015 14:12:21 UTC, Dalibor wrote:

...As for the auction, the price exceeded my expectations and it would be

good if it stays there for some time of course ;-) 

....

Hey - you deserve every last cent you can get - you've got several of us interested in the possibility of having a go, re-discovered and implemented the technology, and have produced wonderful work !!

Cheers

Nick 

[jb-electronics]

Well put, Nick, I completely agree!

Jens

Nick <ni...@desmith.net> hat am 13. Februar 2015 um 16:29 geschrieben:

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[Dalibor Farný]

Thanks guys, I am just grateful to community for helping me with the
start and so.. I want to pay back for it, and showing what I've
discovered might be good idea..

Regards,

Dalibor

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[Matt]

It is your money, but I feel like you might be limiting your future willingness to continue making nixie tubes for others by
continuing to subsidize the costs (parts + labor) using your gratefulness to the community. Granted, you may never be able to cover
all of your labor costs, so this will likely remain a hobby, but if other people are willing to throw money towards a nixie tube
documentary, then they should be able to. Then, hopefully, you will let the community enjoy the fruits of your hobby for a little
bit longer.

If you have the money for the video, then spending it as you see fit is going to be a lot easier than dealing with the general
public via a crowd funding campaign. Putting up a donation page after a person watches the video is the least time consuming way to
get compensated if all you count is the time spent on potential obligations and refunds. But asking for it beforehand might
motivate people more and take advantage of the wide audience that some of these crowd funding sites have. In other words, there
might be an opportunity to get more people interested in this viscerally gratifying display technology. To keep this technology
alive, it would be advantageous to keep the community size stable or growing. My intention is not to convince you to do anything,
but just to put this information out there.

Kickstarter would be perfect for raising funds for a documentary. It focuses more on the arts than any other crowd funding site that
I know of. The audience there generally expects entertainment, but a howto video might work there. The only problem with it is
that it only offers all or nothing funding with an unlimited donation total and a strict deadline for when those donations have to
be made. Indiegogo is a little better in that it offers extensions to deadlines when it makes sense to extend the deadline. It
also offers flexible funding, which is useful if your project will go ahead regardless of the amount donated.

Just to contrast the use of crowd funding: For hardware with multiple quantities, Kickstarter is the worst. Indiegogo is okay, but
there are other crowd funding sites that specialize in hardware projects that plan on being sold after the fundraising period ends.
crowdsupply.com allows pre-orders after the fundraising period ends and can become a regular store when items are in stock. This is
great for ensuring cash flow between the different stages of product development and keeps you from getting distracted from running
your own store front. Tindie does not deal with funding, but it is a store for hobbyists. People sell kits, finished products, and
excess inventory of component parts. There are already a few people selling nixie stuff there, which many of you may already be
familiar with. Although eBay does reach a wider audience. I am generally less hesitant to order from places like eBay and Amazon
than small e-commerce sites unless I am more familiar with the company. Etsy has a good homemade crafts audience, which seems like
a good fit for selling unique homemade nixie crafts.

Anyway, I apologize for the lengthy e-mail. Congratulations on the auction! I was hoping that it would exceed the prices of the
Z568M tubes given that these a fresh tubes with a warranty. Of course, the Z568M market may be a little saturated at the moment.
Maybe after you get your video out and people start discussing it, you may do even better in your auctions!

[Dalibor Farný]

Hi Matt,

thanks for your time with such a long message, especially for overview of the crowdfunding platforms.

First, I am going to make a low-cost documentary, no special effects, just simple, calm video. I have more reasons to make it - I also expect it to spread around the tube lovers (nixie tubes, hifi tubes and so..). It will also show the amount of work and skills needed to make working tubes and justify why few pieces of glass with bent metal sheet cost $1k. It can be said that I consider it a marketing instrument. I want to cover it from my pocket, I dont think it would be right to ask people either for donation or crowdfunding - it is commercial project. I will also make a DVD with more stuff on it then online, so if someone wants to support the work, he will have possibility to buy the DVD.

"It is your money, but I feel like you might be limiting your future willingness to continue making nixie tubes for others by continuing to subsidize the costs (parts + labor) using your gratefulness to the community."

Well, I am not sure if I understand meaning of this sentence. But dont be afraid about this project from the financial point of view, I learned to be cost effective and I know where to set the price so that I can survive and save means for future development. About the money I already spent on it.. Well, I would be satisfied if I am allowed to do this work that I really love, I dont need them immediately back. However, I believe that this is promising project that will enable me to build a small viable company around it.

About the crowdfunding in general, I know that it is great help how to sell a lots of products in short time and start the business. However, it is also very demanding to manage the campaign and manufacture this big amount of products in short time. Most of the funded projects ships with significant delay, that brings stress and I dont work much well under stress. If I want to stay motivated and creative, I cant work under stress, deadlines and so..

Best regards!

Dalibor

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[Matt]

Hi Dalibor,

Sounds great. I know enough about materials and manufacturing to appreciate what you are building and the prices involved, but for
people growing up in today's world of cheap "semi-disposable durable goods", that appreciation usually takes a bit of education.

Your response sounds like you understood the meaning of that sentence. Basically, I prefer not to see you build a few things under
budget, get burnout, and loose interest. I am glad that you are making this project sustainable.

For the most part, the DVD option sounds good, but as the music industry has discovered, and the movie industry is discovering,
people prefer the instant gratification that only Internet downloads can provide. Besides, 480p (assuming that you meant DVD video
instead of DVD data) is awful for video resolution these days. I would think that most people would prefer to view this type of
information on their laptop so that they can follow along in their shop. Not all of them have DVD drives these days. 1080p should
be the minimum that you distribute.

And you are right about crowdfunding being stressful. Most of the time, you need at least one person dedicated towards mangaging
the campaign and social aspects of it. And that is not counting the contemptible contributors who take your best guesses for what
can get done and when as some kind of pseudo legal commitment. The things I avoid doing just to avoid these type of people...

Anyway...

Best regards!

[Jorge]

Dalibor:

Have you considered adding decimal points to your tubes, or perhaps recreating a tube that has decimal points?

The micros that drive clocks these days have a lot of processing power that can be used to display temperature, humidity and other measurements from a myriad of sensors that look better in a floating point format. Using neon lamps or other means of creating colons restricts the display to just time. You can be very creative in displaying conventional time is a format like 12.34.56 (for 12 hours, 34 minutes and 56 seconds) and later display something like 23.6 for twenty three point six degrees. My point is that a tube with decimal points could be very handy for someone who wants to go beyond displaying just time.

Your thoughts are welcome.

Regards, Jorge

[Dalibor Farný]

Hello,

I know that decimal point is sometimes handy feature, however it would
be difficult to add it to current tube. But I will definitely think
about it when I start designing next tube.

Thanks for usecases,

Dalibor

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