Hi Willem,
Thanks for your kind words. It's great (and motivating) to know
that you are still using and enjoying Clairnote (DN)! Always good
to hear your thoughts and experiences with it. Very cool that you
were able to easily go back to reading Clairnote and playing
guitar after two years away.
A chromatic button accordion sounds like a nice portable isomorphic instrument. I'm focusing on guitar these days, but if I have time for another instrument at some point, I might have to look into an accordion.
All the best,
-Paul
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See if MuseScore can somehow be wrangled to use the custom fonts and percussion note heads along with custom staves etc, as i did for Finale. Somehow i doubt whether this is feasible.
Ask computer coding experts to design a custom software. I would be happy to pay for this if it was possible.
Any suggestions or help appreciated.
Regards,
John Keller
Express Stave pianoforte notation
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That is disappointing that MusesScore is not supportive.
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Let me jump in here. I've just noticed this thread. As some of you know, I've tried my hand at creating notation software from scratch and had a couple systems producing single-page "chromatonnetz" scores (basically a shape-note version of Klavarskribo.).
I have also been using Lilypond extensively to produce TN scores for my own piano lessons. Lilypond also does shape-notes so custom noteheads are in principle do-able and I believe Paul has actually done it.
The real problem with Lilypond is getting 12-position staves which Paul has solved to some extent, though I'm not sure how compatible it is with all the other Lilypond features I like, such as shape notes, note colorings, mid-measure breaks, etc.
BTW, John, with manual editing you have great flexibility in Lilypond to break lines and pages anywhere you want--I do it all the time.
I like to break my lines at phrase/lyric breaks, and pages at section breaks. Of course, you can only get so many notes on a page and still see them, but anything reasonable can be done. For a while (pre-cataract surgery) I needed to print all my scores "big-note" just to read them and Lilypond was able to handle it.
One problem you didn't mention was the input format to the score editor. Lilypond accepts an alphanumeric text format; it's not graphical or WYSIWYG as far as I know, although adding Frescobaldi gives you a near-immediate rendition of the actual score.
I was working for a while on the midi-to-Lilypond converter but the real problem there is with MIDI--there's just not enough information in the MIDI file to make a score without a lot of supplement or artificial intelligence. Problem areas are timing and dynamics, even bar placement between measures and note durations, fermata, etc., and "decoding" a succession of the same note at different volumes as a single sustained note with changing loudness. If the MIDI is output by other software, it's easier, but that presupposes you already have converted the score into computer form.
I personally moved away from alternative notation because it took more effort to convert a score than to learn to read it in TN--in fact,
if you are *converting* a score, you must of course already know how to read the TN--just not necessarily in real-time. What I do now is set Lilypond coloring options to make sharps red, flats blue, and I have extra colors for white accidentals. Of course that doesn't help with the octave differences for the two staves and ledger lines. For singing I use 7-shape shape notes.
I believe isomorphic notations work best with isomorphic instruments--and especially vice-versa. I had a Chromatone for a while and used Chromatonnetz with it, but the Chromatone broke and I went back to conventional keyboard because you just can't get an isomorphic keyboard at your local music store. To say nothing of trying to find a sympathetic teacher, much less one who can actually teach you to play it. So I believe something like ExpressStave explicit to 7-5 makes more sense on a 7-5 keyboard.
But as to the way forward. I am currently working on using web technologies (PWA and SVG or Canvas if you know what that means) to create a score creator. With sufficient motivation (non-monetary) I expect I could produce something that could generate single-page scores with staves and notes, possibly fingering and chords, but with dynamics and other notations "deferred to a later release". Of course, a teacher or student could add the rest by hand. If I can get anything working I'll let y'all know. Or if anybody else wants to volunteer to lead a project I would be glad to lend a hand. I know some C++, JavaScript, Java, Python, HTML. SVG, Canvas and more; I'm not as familiar with the internals of Lilypond as Paul but I can learn.
Personally, I like vertical staves so I would do that; I'm not sure Lilypond can.
I don't really know anything about MuseScore. I may have tried it a time or two but I found Lilypond did most of what I want.
Joe Austin
aka DrTechDaddy
John,
Thanks. That confirms that the note centers are equally spaced and adjacent slant notes do overlap.
Joe Austin aka DrTechDaddy
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John,Thanks. That confirms that the note centers are equally spaced and adjacent slant notes do overlap.Joe Austin aka DrTechDaddyFrom: musicn...@googlegroups.com <musicn...@googlegroups.com>On Behalf Of John Keller
Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2021 6:51 AM
To: musicn...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [MNP] How to procedeHi Joe,This page might help you see the details of how the ES notes fit.The dimensions must take into account the width of the staff lines.The slanting notes (‘bigs’) more or less tip the lines, while the flat note heads (‘smalls’) sink into the lines.You can see by the ascending notes in the F clef that the centres are all equally spaced vertically,but I haven’t actually engineered exact dimensions.The horizontal width of all notes should be equal so that chords stack neatly.
One big and one small stack neatly between two staff lines, e.g. A and C or Hand I.
Thanks for your interest and any help is appreciated.Cheers,John
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John,
Regarding stem-side: When I was scoring for Janko, I actually put all the notes from one whole-tone scale (Janko row) on one side of the stem and notes from the alternate scale/row on the other. Of course that made somewhat more intuitive sense with a vertical staff, since noteheads for different rows of keys were actually in different "rows" on the stem.
I am working on a score-writer.
My goal is to develop a Progressive Web App using SVG or Canvas,
but I'd best not make any promises.
I did try another approach using Excel Macros to draw Klavar staves and noteheads in a spreadsheet--basically a variation on PianoRoll.
I think it might be adapted to ExpressStave.
I'm not trying to replace Finale or Lilypond, just do something so a student can create his/her own arrangements of lesson pieces on a 12-position staff.
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Hi John,
what you say is so true that I've considered accepting, even proposing a temporary compromise like :
do 1 re 3 mi fa 6 sol 8 la 10 si do (for Latin countries) or
C 1 D 3 E F 6 G 8 A 10 B C (for the rest)
before the 0-11 scale be ingrained in everyone's mind.
But I do think it's possible to teach the diatonic C scale with numbers, that goes 0 2 4 5 7 9 11 0. It's not difficult to memorize and the 2212221 semitones structure is easy to grasp too. And this numeric pattern is transposable to other keys. I call it scale calculation. Dominique
envoyé : 7 juillet 2021 à 10:06
de : J R Freestone <j.r.fr...@gmail.com>
à : musicn...@googlegroups.com
objet : Re: [MNP] How to procede
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Yes, Mark, exactly.
envoyé : 7 juillet 2021 à 13:54
de : Mark Gould <equit...@gmail.com>
à : The Music Notation Project | Forum <musicn...@googlegroups.com>
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I notice that the advocates of ClairNote are players of isomorphic instruments such as janko, guitar, button accordion, etc. (And also I suspect that it is mainly single note melodies that are referred to when playing by intervals.)Where are other players of the standard keyboard who are trying alternative notations? Or standard orchestral instruments other than strings, that as far as I know, are all based on the natural scale plus enharmonically equivalent extra fingerings.I also prefer the Dual Noteheads version of ClairNote for the same reason as Willem described.Willem, does your button accordion have the usual bass button chords in 5ths layout? And do you read these from chord letters or a notation?Cheers,John KellerExpress Stave pianoforte notationOn 6 Jun 2021, at 3:08 am, Paul Morris <pa...@paulwmorris.com> wrote:Hi Willem,
Thanks for your kind words. It's great (and motivating) to know that you are still using and enjoying Clairnote (DN)! Always good to hear your thoughts and experiences with it. Very cool that you were able to easily go back to reading Clairnote and playing guitar after two years away.
A chromatic button accordion sounds like a nice portable isomorphic instrument. I'm focusing on guitar these days, but if I have time for another instrument at some point, I might have to look into an accordion.
All the best,
-Paul
On 6/2/21 4:34 PM, gguitarwilly wrote:
Hi Paul,
You offer a very clearly formulated case for using accidental signs. I find them useful, mainly for quickly spotting notes outside the current key,I find Clairnote still offers me everything I need from a notation. I'm using it for (janko) piano, guitar and chromatic button accordion.Especially for the accordion the notation is useful, because on the five row symmetrical keyboard it's far more useful to think in intervals instead of absolute note names. The same goes for Janko piano, for the same reason.I hardly used Clairnote on guitar the last two years because I've been mainly playing the lute, for which all music is written in TAB notation.When I picked up my guitar after all this time, I still could play my Clairnote scores without any problem.I use the DN original variant of Clairnote, as I find SN offers a confusing number of pseudo-ledger lines, and the alternating colours of the DN variant are one of the main advantages of Clairnote.I find it a bit sad to conclude that I can't see how Clairnote may be improved, or replaced by a better system, because the search for the holy grail is exciting and fun.
best wishes, Willem
Op woensdag 21 april 2021 om 13:55:15 UTC+2 schreef Mark Gould:
Hi Paul
Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I see that all of my points are addressed in this tutorial. It even covers my point that an 'unadorned' 12ET notation loses information, which as you point out can be 'recovered' in a notation like Clairnote (a 6-6 notation with lines 4 semitones apart).
My complaint is that theorists begin with the piano and 12ET, but really the diatonic scale generates 'TN' through its structure. 12ET does not differentiate between a chromatic step F to F# and a diatonic semitone, between F and Gb and so forth. It's the 'beginning with 12ET' approach that is my concern for learning how tonal music works, when really, as the tutorial makes clear, it's a much more complex beast.
The richness of 'possibility' in tonal music, and understanding that it's a compromise between different ways of intoning notes and keeping certain intervals close to their natural ratios is fundamental to knowing what tonality is. I think beginning with 12ET misses this.
My schooling in music theory was away from the piano, beginning with the diatonic scale, and _showing_ through the transpositions by fifths upwards and downwards how the chromatic notes appear in the sharp and flat keys. At some point in this learning, it's drawn to the student's attention that A major has a G sharp and E-flat major has an A-flat. It is _then_ that a discussion was had about the idea of enharmonics occurs, and how historically different ideas about how this might be dealt with practically, and showing how we arrive at closing the circle of fifths at this point, and forming the enharmonic relations we have today. All of this showed that 12ET is a *choice* not a preordained _this is how it is_. It also differentiates between a thing, and the representation of a thing. Acknowledgement of this fact seems very lacking in 12ET circles, and should alert us to the fact that 12ET notations are a notation for a temperament, or as we find in non-tonal or non-diatonic music today, a specific set of pitch-classes which composers use.
There's a lot of group-theory and other mathematics behind diatonic (and other) scale structures and the 'options' for how they are represented, but I find a lot of individuals 'in denial' that these other representations can (and do) exist. Presenting a student 'beginning with 12ET' fails to show them the _why_ of what they are doing, and it's this I have found is often crucial to understanding. It opens the door to the richness of 'possibility' tempered by the 'necessity' of having physically practical musical instruments.
Nowhere do I suggest that 12ET notations are no good at notating music written with 12ET in mind, only, at the risk of repeating myself, with their ability (unadorned) to do justice to tonal relations in diatonic music.
Kind regards
Mark
On Tuesday, 20 April 2021 at 12:48:07 UTC+1 Paul Morris wrote:
Hi Mark G. and John K.,
I'm arriving late to recent discussions, and haven't been able to read
all the recent messages, but I saw you were discussing the the
representation of "enharmonic equivalents" in the recent "Gabriel Music
Notation by William Tapley" thread. I thought I'd start a new thread
for this topic.
FWIW, I just wanted to add that it is possible to represent distinctions
between "enharmonic equivalents" (sharps and flats etc.) on a chromatic
staff, preserving all the nuances of what composers wrote in traditional
notation. For example, see Clairnote DN's alternative accidental signs:
https://clairnote.org/dn/accidental-signs/
I'm not aware of another system that takes this approach, so I think
it's fair to say that it's one of Clairnote's "contributions to the field".
Cheers,
-Paul
P.S. For anyone curious, there's a general discussion of enharmonic
equivalents, as they relate to chromatic staff notation systems,
including the argument for visually distinguishing between them, see
this MNP tutorial:
http://musicnotation.org/tutorials/enharmonic-equivalents/
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