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At the risk of wearing out my welcome, I would also like to see the five questions in Part 1 of the Research Project which is not a part of the test results document. There is a reference on page 4 to the "orignal test form" . Perhaps that is more easily available (and not 30 pages long!).
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What instruments did the evaluators play and were they instructed to attempt sight reading from the various notations?
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And there was no mention of the whole debate such as recently was had with Mark Gould and Graham Breed that fusing enharmonics is simply not valid.
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John,
I would suggest that we identify the problem before we begin looking for solutions.
As a once-beginner piano student, I saw "the problem" as a difficulty of making an intuitive correspondence between the notation on the page and the keys on my instrument. I am expected to make this mapping in real time at hundreds of events per minute.
I have been told that some human brains are capable of learning to do this, but I find I cannot do it reliably myself.
Is there a better way?
As a perhaps budding musician, I see an entirely different problem: learning to perform music.
Which leads me to question whether notation is the right place to start!
After all, I did not learn to read before I learned to talk;
I presumably did not learn to talk before I learned to recognize the language being spoken.
So why are we even starting with notation? Why not start instrumental music the way we start vocal music, with rote repetition?
My children were taught to play violin via the Suzuki method before they could read music notation.
I am beginning to suspect that we don't actually "read" music;
we learn it by memory,
then use the score as a cue-card to jog our memory.
If you want an interesting experiment, teach kids to play "by rote" or "by ear",
then let them invent their own notation to record their songs,
and see what happens!
Joe Austin
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I am beginning to suspect that we don't actually "read" music;
we learn it by memory,then use the score as a cue-card to jog our memory.
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But if by "a chromatic solution" you mean one that doesn't show the 7-5 pattern of the diatonic-plus-chromatic pitches (such as the piano roll notations which you often cite),
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I'm certainly not the expert in learning or teaching music.
But it just seems to me that a notation should emphasize the elements that are important to the sound patterns in music: rhythm, harmony, and form as well as melody,
and that traditional notation, and even many of the proposed alternatives, do not really address these other elements, but focus primarily on pitch.
For example, in my Chromatonnetz, for which BTW I must credit the inspiration of Roy Pertchik, I highlight major and minor thirds, a foundation of harmony, with matching color or shape of noteheads. I arrange lines on the page and page breaks to match the form of the piece. I have suggested that the concepts of rhythmic "feet" in poetry might be applied to notate musical rhythms, but I confess I don't have a specific proposal for doing so. But in the absence of a better alternative, I've been using time-proportional notation.
I would remind us that current technology makes it feasible to teach music aurally as well as visually. The computer can automate aural drills and exercises as effectively as it does scores,
and MIDI instruments and even sound analysis could be used to monitor the student's efforts.
And in the meantime, the next generation is learning music by watching and imitating performances on YouTube!
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Of course, piano-roll only shows the 7-5 pattern in the key (tonality) of C major.
The system of key signatures and accidentals adapts this pattern to the other tonalites,
but not in a very satisfactory way, in my opinion. I much prefer shape notes, where the actual scale degree of each pitch is specifically identified, allowing ready re-interpretation as Pythagorean, Diatonic, or Equal Temperament tuning without changing the actual notation.
From: musicn...@googlegroups.com <musicn...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Douglas Keislar
Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2021 11:43 AM
To: musicn...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [MNP] Where can I find the full Report on the Results of the MNMA Evaluation Test
P.S. Just realized this is unclear:
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Enrique,
I think the problem is that we don't really have a theory of ET harmony. Standard harmonic theory is based on intervals of the harmonic series, the ratios of small whole numbers,
primarily 1:2:3:4:5:6.
Whether that is psychologically valid I suppose is debatable, but I don't know of any consistent theory that explains consonance and dissonance in terms of half-steps or twelfth roots.
We end up treating ET as only an approximation to small-number-ratio harmony.
If someone has an instrument, such as voice or unfretted strings, that allows true infinitely variable pitch, and the music is composed for it, why not use the "just" intervals?
But as I've said elsewhere, I believe the TN system of accidentals is a poor vehicle to notate it;
I much prefer shape notes--a different symbol for each scale degree--myself.
From: musicn...@googlegroups.com <musicn...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Musical Supersystem
Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2021 3:08 PM
To: musicnotation <musicn...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [MNP] Where can I find the full Report on the Results of the MNMA Evaluation Test
On the other hand, in a system full of theoretical assumptions, where notes that are different and sound so different (octave equivalence) are taught to be the same that some people believe it as a fact, or chords because they share the same notes though sound so different that anyone can notice we assume they are the same (just inverted).
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Enrique,
I think the problem is that we don't really have a theory of ET harmony.
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(e.g. it is difficult to believe that the root of the chord C/E/G/A, resolved in a B-major triad, is not C, but F)
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(e.g. it is difficult to believe that the root of the chord C/E/G/A, resolved in a B-major triad, is not C, but F)I don't know of any music theory that would claim that! Perhaps there's a typo in the quote.
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I suggest that for a good understanding of those chords which can be notated multiple ways
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I'd also say that the equivalence of such collections is based on 12ET,
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If someone has an instrument, such as voice or unfretted strings, that allows true infinitely variable pitch, and the music is composed for it, why not use the "just" intervals?
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On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 11:43 PM <tinma...@gmail.com> wrote:
If someone has an instrument, such as voice or unfretted strings, that allows true infinitely variable pitch, and the music is composed for it, why not use the "just" intervals?
Ok, and why cannot we make the reverse theoretical assumption (like octave equivalence) that they are the same?
In the natural sciences, "theory" is an attempt to find a pattern in "nature", that is, something measurable regarding something discernible with the senses.
To my knowledge, no one has suggested that the twelve ET divisions of a frequency and it's double correspond to any physically or psychologically recognizable phenomenon. In other works, ET is a purely artificial system originally designed to approximate the Pythagorean or Diatonic scale.
Let's put it this way: why choose 12 irrational divisions, instead of 13 or 11 or 15. Or 28, which is a "perfect" number? Or 30, which is a multiple of 3 prime factors?
What is the "theoretical" rationale for 12?
Perhaps someone can develop a theory for ET. I just haven't seen one.
On the other hand, the fact that humans can enjoy music performed in ET suggests that there must me some psychological explanation for that,
if only regarding how well we accommodate approximations.
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In the natural sciences, "theory" is an attempt to find a pattern in "nature", that is, something measurable regarding something discernible with the senses.
To my knowledge, no one has suggested that the twelve ET divisions of a frequency and it's double correspond to any physically or psychologically recognizable phenomenon. In other works, ET is a purely artificial system originally designed to approximate the Pythagorean or Diatonic scale.
Let's put it this way: why choose 12 irrational divisions, instead of 13 or 11 or 15. Or 28, which is a "perfect" number? Or 30, which is a multiple of 3 prime factors?
What is the "theoretical" rationale for 12?
Perhaps someone can develop a theory for ET. I just haven't seen one.
On the other hand, the fact that humans can enjoy music performed in ET suggests that there must me some psychological explanation for that,
if only regarding how well we accommodate approximations.
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