Belief vs knowledge

[leerevdouglas]

Morning all.

I can't post or respond to posts using the mobile website, so RP I will reply when I get home...

In the meantime....

How much do you know vs how much you believe?

Many of you here know me, some of us go back a decade or more, (hello to those new to me and I to them)@ I've been online for some 35 odd years or so and have much forum experience.  Which is all to say, this not my first ride.

I've been thinking for as long as I can remember. I know some stuff but believe much more stuff and disbelieve a great amount of stuff too.

I've been back and forth with atheists sooo many times that I think I know thier concerns with theism, well at least the anti thiest athiest.

It's about reason. They tell me that belief without evidence is unreasonable. And yes I suppose it is.  So they smile at me when I say this, and assume they've won...

But isn't that just a description of what belief is? Holding something to be true, that has not been shown to be so....

So I ask them, are you loved?

Yes I am, comes the reply.  But can you prove that?

Well of course, my partner shows me every day by their words and actions...

Nice, I say, I'm happy for you, love is powerful, being loved is great isn't it..

But can you show that your partner is not deciving you?

Well no you can't.  Because no matter how you try, you just cannot prove that what an other thinks is as they claim it.  So ultimately you must believe...

I'm a pragmatist, a realist, but also a thiest and here's the rub, a nilhist too boot.

Seems contradictory no? A pragmatic and nilhistic religious bloke.

It's not and I can readily explain how, but perhaps in another thread at another time. Here and now I'm speaking about belief and knowledge.

Objective reality exists. Can I prove that?

Nope.  Ultimately Decartes' cogito ergo sum, does not work for me. 

I think, therefore I am...

But I cannot conclusively show that the demon is not dreaming of me as A thinking being, any more than I can prove I'm not a brain in a jar or in any other way a simulated being....

I call Descartes' wondering the first belief.

I believe that I am real and live in a real universe, upon that foundational belief hangs all the other beliefs I hold and the very few objective facts I can claim as knowledge. 

What about you lot?

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.

[Rajendra Pal Singh]

First step in reasoning is that you have faith later on you prove or disprove it with time. Little children have faith and learn what they are taught. Later when they grow up they reason out things and often their beliefs change with time. 

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[Rajendra Pal Singh]

When a baby a child is taught that God lives on the moon and believes it for many years, but as he grows up and gets educated he realizes cv that it is just myth. But some people who don't get proper education keep on believing it even as grown-ups.

[Rajendra Pal Singh]

Moral: logic is greater than belief.

[Allan]

reading your post it seems we have been around the internet for about the same time,,  but you probably more than me.. there were periods of time when I could not afford the luxury.
recently I upgraded  my mobile connection to unlimited
(nation wide) both voice and data.. have had to spend to much time in hospitals and clinics (home away from home)
I am looking into (saving money) for I think a new 5g Nokia for my birthday day in November.. 5 g is no problem as my service provider KPN is entirely 5g. (5g is much more energy effect both on the network and mobile phone units (battery charge last longer)).

at this point in reality my great search is to understand the personality of God.. sorry RP for my experience God is much more than  "formless and occupying no space." God is an extremely complex being of many ¿dementions ?
love exploring ideas of others as well as showing off my own.
it is nice to see old faces
Allan



do not murder, rape or enslave others

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[Allan]

disagree RP little children do not have faith ..  what they do have id the strange ability to accect and believe..
strange as it sounds I once was one.. now I work very hard at keeping my child within both well and healthy.
my second most cherished possession.

Allan

do not murder, rape or enslave others

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[Allan]

what a  strange thing to teach a child my body's fathes is a biological research professor. No one i knew was taught that.. I do know that parents do put strange ideas into their children's heads

Allan

do not murder, rape or enslave others

-----Original Message-----
From: Rajendra Pal Singh <123...@gmail.com>
To: Minds Eye <mind...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Mon, 20 Sep 2021 12:53 pm
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Belief vs knowledge

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[Rajendra Pal Singh]

A child has faith that what his teachers are teaching is truth, when the priest delivers a sermon they believe it to be true. When islamic suicide bombers go in a crowded place an blow themselves they believe that they will go to jannat because they have been told so since childhood.

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[Allan]

there we have to agree to disagree.  logic can only prove or disprove.. belief can create.

Allan

do not murder, rape or enslave others

-----Original Message-----
From: Rajendra Pal Singh <123...@gmail.com>
To: Minds Eye <mind...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Mon, 20 Sep 2021 12:55 pm
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Belief vs knowledge

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[Allan]

again we disagree  RP you are getting in to synonyms but word have different but similar meaning.
i am getting tired and need to pause for awhile.

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[Rajendra Pal Singh]

What then is belief and how it lodges in the heart?

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[Rajendra Pal Singh]

The thought pattern that is logic is different in everyone. It depends on your genes, your family and neighbourhood, your school, your classmates and society in general.

When you grow up you have a reasoning power of your own, you have your own understanding and that is why some people in their adulthood change their religion 

So, what Is logical to one is illogical to another. Some feel that what their heart accepts is right and some believe in their intellect.

[Rajendra Pal Singh]

When a priest speaks from the pulpit how do you know that he actually means it, that he is not deceiving you. How do you know that what is written in the holy book is true, how do know that the prophet really had communion with God, and yet you believe him. But there are so many religions which contradict each other, so what is the True religion. Everyone claims his own religion to be true.

Then you can stop reasoning about religion and follow it blindly. The muslim will convert the whole world to Islam a d do jihad. Who will interpret the holy books without reasoning, but you say belief is greater than knowledge, so stop reasoning and let each one follow his religion blindly.

On Mon, Sep 20, 2021, 2:20 PM leerevdouglas <leerev...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Rajendra Pal Singh]

If you say that belief is greater than reason why do you give reasons in support of your beliefs, just why not say I have this belief and will brook no criticism, no explanations. It is final and no arguments please.

On Mon, Sep 20, 2021, 2:20 PM leerevdouglas <leerev...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Rajendra Pal Singh]

That is what the muslim fanatics do, they cannot question the Quran. Look at the Taliban in Afghanistan.

[Allan]

Observations have lead me yo believe the best way feal eith Muslim fanatics is to leave them alone.. they will kill rach other off.
I have managed to read around  half of the quran and  realze thecclaim Moses yo be a great prophet of Allah (God). What I don't understand moses being a prophet of Allah why there is no mention of the teachings Allah gave to Moses on Mount Sinai?

God is not a Myth

-----Original Message-----
From: Rajendra Pal Singh <123...@gmail.com>
To: Minds Eye <mind...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 11:02 am
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Belief vs knowledge

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[Rajendra Pal Singh]

I was expecting Lee to reply, don't know what has taken him so long. 

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[Mardi McCabe]

so just for me, thinking about belief and knowledge as abstract concepts, I don't see them as dichotomously oppositional in any way to each other. They are both profoundly important mental generators of ideas and repositories of ideas, experiences, and complex intellectual structures that are individual to each of us. And although both religious minded and anti-religious minded people have (since the 17th century in European and American cultures) reduced these terms to almost "buzz words" for defining and delimiting proprietary intellectual territory regarding God.... in the immortal words of Inigo Montoya in "The Princess Bride"..... “You keep using that word.  I do not think it means what you think it means.” !  Not to belittle inquiries into and discussions of the existence or non-existence of God; I just don't see belief vs knowledge as the true fulcrum of that discussion. For the most complex profound discussions of God, I look to the writings of the Muslim great spiritual master Ibn al-Arabi (12th c.) and the great Hindu spiritual master Ramanujacharya (11th c.) which are in remarkable agreement with one another! Also, in the six different Hindu philosophical traditions, there is a very well millennia long established intellectual discussion of entirely non-theistic or even atheistic spiritualities. But then my personal values place the development of human spirituality as the goal of life..... by whatever means and whatever beliefs or knowledge it is generated.

[Rajendra Pal Singh]

Belief and logic are not one, aperson may believe something which is contrary even to one's own logic.

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[Rajendra Pal Singh]

There is a difference between trust and faith. You trust your wife, friends and relatives and trust can be betrayed, but that is the risk we take.

But you have faith in God and believe all the dogmas attached to your religion . Some people have blind faith others question and when acknowledging sound logic their faith vanishes 

On Mon, Sep 20, 2021, 2:20 PM leerevdouglas <leerev...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Rajendra Pal Singh]

Well, even if we take trust and faith as synonyms it is still the same. You have faith, trust in your wife and it is absolute, then one day accidentally you find her in bed with another man what happens? Your faith is shattered, but if you love her you can still pardon her and continue with life.

Some people change their religion because they reason that the other religion is better. Here you are using logic and not faith 

[Molly Brogan]

A nice reverie, Lee. I guess I depend on consensus reality, what I can sense and perceive that others demonstrably sense and perceive. 

I like to research, medicine, science, philosophy, theology, religion, art, music...so many things. I suppose consensus reality comes into play here too. Preferences or information with which I affiliate my knowledge and mental tendencies. For instance, it seems to me that every religion has a mystical tradition, and all of those have quite a bit in common. In practice, I've found that the mystical traditions offer me more than any others, so my beliefs probably fall into line with them.

Can I suspend bias, and be open to new information that my experience offers me? Sometimes I wonder if people can recognize anything new in their experience even though it is there. Entrenched in a bias that prevents perception from even allowing it to be recognized or become part of their experience. 

If we all had no bias or structured belief, we might have less individual truth or reality, and more universal truth and pure awareness in our experience. It is a long road to get there, paved with introspection and self correction to shed the mental constructs we've been taught since birth.

[Rajendra Pal Singh]

You are right Molly, most of us have closed our mind to differing opinions, we gather only those which conform somewhat to our view of things. Beliefs are ok, without them life would lose all meaning, but we should be open minded enough for change in the light of new truths brought to light by science .

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[Allan]

Belief vs knowledge
an odd comment. I grew up  in a catholic home son of a professor of botany and microbiology.. lived acblock and a half from campus.. even today it is a highly advanced research university.. knowledge was and still is highly valued.. My Father is a convert to Catholism so belief was and still is a way of life.

childhood memories (around 3) watching dragonflies oddly I I remember knowing how to stay out of danger while I watched.. the pond for a three year old actually is and was very dangerous. an I could always feel an entity always near me helping me stay safe..
I knew how to move and stay safe at 3 years....  also got in trouble over it too.
if your beliefs are not backed up by knowledge then just what are they?

do not murder, rape or enslave others

-----Original Message-----
From: Rajendra Pal Singh <123...@gmail.com>
To: Minds Eye <mind...@googlegroups.com>

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[Molly Brogan]

I wonder if barriers to communication don't include beliefs, knowledge (interpreted by our own preconceived notions), opinions, bias... I've learned to spot an opinion a mile away as everyone is entitled to them and but they rarely have a clear foundation but are more often founded on the barriers of understanding and our ability to communicate it.

Anyone can form an opinion with only surface or scant information. Even the words used to form opinion are subject to semantics, which is subject to what we "know." These mental generators, as Mardi so rightly calls them, close us. We only truly open if we can get beyond them, and see the world unfiltered without them. With a clear mind and pure heart. I've seen it done well, but not often.

[allan...@gmail.com]

I agree
Allan

do not murder; rape; or enslave others
God is not a myth

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[Rajendra Pal Singh]

Yes Molly, knowledge is usually half-baked, it is just an opinion.people form opinions and brandish it as knowledge. But what about our scientists and doctors, there knowledge is also subject to change with new research and updates. Medicines are thrown into the world with full testing and yet hundreds are die from side effects and they are than recalled.It is really sorry state of affairs but benefits hugely outweigh the risks. Think if the antisychotics were withdrawn because of side-effects how many people would be at the end of their rehtey.

So, in knowledge and v belief the greater good should be seen, without them society would  come to a stop. Without trust all work would come to a stop. We as colleagues trust each other then only can work be done. On the other hand if there was no knowledge we would be wearing leaves for clothes. So v I say to my friend Lee that faith with all its risks id very important and life cannot go on without it. But knowledge is also that important. But again it is true that faith comes first because we cannot gain knowledge without faith in out superiors

 Logic doesn't always works it needs faith for nourishment. Let me conclude by the famous statement that faith and knowledge are two sides of the same coin.

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[Allan H]

Solved the posting problem by going to unlimited calls and data

Allan

God is not a myth!