Discuss Eclipse Foundation proposal

[Kevin Sutter]

Hi,
Now that the vote has completed (https://groups.google.com/d/msg/microprofile/aVX7G4QTP0A/CIrfzTn1GQAJ), we should push forward with a formal proposal to the Eclipse Foundation.  The actual proposal is not directly shareable until it goes public.  I started the proposal with private input from several microprofile individuals.  The attached pdf has the latest proposal content.  Once we get and process the community input, then we can make the proposal public and get it onto an Eclipse Board agenda.  The soonest meeting is Oct 24.  It will be miracle if we can process the community input and get it on that agenda...  If it doesn't happen, then we have two other opportunities in Nov and Dec.

Please, let's try to keep the discussion on this post specific to the Eclipse Foundation proposal.  I know that the content of the proposal could easily spin off multiple discussions.  We should create new threads to process those tangential discussions.  Thanks for your cooperation!

Kevin

[Ken Finnigan]

Kevin,

Looks good to me.

One thing, I'm flattered, but my name is listed twice as a committer. ;-)

Ken

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[Alasdair Nottingham]

Clearly you are twice as important as anyone else ;)

Alasdair Nottingham

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[Kevin Sutter]

Or, maybe twice as good...  :-)

Thanks, Ken.  I have removed the second entry.

But, this reminds me that we have list of proposed committers that have not created an Eclipse Foundation Account.  Normally, this means that you haven't accepted the Eclipse CLA.  Can the following people please perform the due diligence to correct your Eclipse account.  BTW, this may be as simple as providing me with the proper email address to use for Eclipse.  I might have used the wrong one in the proposal.  Thanks for your help!

• Committer David Blevins must create an Eclipse Foundation Account.
• Committer Andy Gumbrecht must create an Eclipse Foundation Account.
• Committer Thiago Veronezi must create an Eclipse Foundation Account.
• Committer Jonathan S. Fisher must create an Eclipse Foundation Account.
• Committer Mark Little must create an Eclipse Foundation Account.

On Wednesday, October 19, 2016 at 9:11:51 PM UTC-5, Alasdair Nottingham wrote:

Clearly you are twice as important as anyone else ;)

Alasdair Nottingham

On Oct 19, 2016, at 8:40 PM, Ken Finnigan <k...@kenfinnigan.me> wrote:

Kevin,

Looks good to me.

One thing, I'm flattered, but my name is listed twice as a committer. ;-)

Ken

On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 12:43 PM, Kevin Sutter <kwsu...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi,
Now that the vote has completed (https://groups.google.com/d/msg/microprofile/aVX7G4QTP0A/CIrfzTn1GQAJ), we should push forward with a formal proposal to the Eclipse Foundation.  The actual proposal is not directly shareable until it goes public.  I started the proposal with private input from several microprofile individuals.  The attached pdf has the latest proposal content.  Once we get and process the community input, then we can make the proposal public and get it onto an Eclipse Board agenda.  The soonest meeting is Oct 24.  It will be miracle if we can process the community input and get it on that agenda...  If it doesn't happen, then we have two other opportunities in Nov and Dec.

Please, let's try to keep the discussion on this post specific to the Eclipse Foundation proposal.  I know that the content of the proposal could easily spin off multiple discussions.  We should create new threads to process those tangential discussions.  Thanks for your cooperation!

Kevin

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[John D. Ament]

Thanks for putting this together Kevin.  I'm not familiar with Eclipse's processes, is it usually a PDF?

At this point, Hammock is not a true organization, so you can nix that on the interested parties section.

Does eclipse have an SGA process for the source code?

John

[Kevin Sutter]

Hi John,
No, the normal proposal is a web form.  But, until we decide to go public with the proposal, I can't make the draft web form available for everybody's viewing.  So, I just cut and paste the content and created a pdf for our community's viewing pleasure.

I will remove Hammock.

SGA Process?  Can you clarify?  I'm not familiar with SGA.

Thanks,
Kevin

[Werner Keil]

I'm an Eclipse Committer already btw., but OK to be mentioned under "Interested Parties" if other existing artifacts or demos than the committers list were taken into consideration for those mentioned under "committers"
(e.g. Martijn is also listed as supporting)
Maybe he'd speak up for himself, but given several posts in different threads earlier, I guess Anatole Tresch could also be considered supporting it;-)

Thanks,
Werner

[Werner Keil]

It seems Martijn is mentioned twice and Kevin misspelled my last name as "Kail" instead of "Keil".

Thanks for fixing (also try to mention it to Wayne later today at ECE;-)

Werner

[Ondrej Mihályi]

Hi Kevin,

Can you add me to the list of committers?

I already have an Eclipse account under this email.

--Ondrej

Dňa pondelok, 24. októbra 2016 10:43:39 UTC+2 Werner Keil napísal(-a):

[Kevin Sutter]

Thanks, Werner.  I have added Anatole as an interested party.  And, I have corrected the spelling of your last name.  :-)  A former colleague of mine spelled his name Kail and I did it out of habit.  Sorry, and thanks.

[Amelia Eiras]

Hola Kevin & all, 

Many of us are not familiar with how the Eclipse Foundation process works, minimum requirements, responsibilities... etc. , 

Could you please share a bit more detail on the difference btw Project Leads, Committers, Work Group?  

The groups will become the initial structure for MP under the Eclipse Foundation, further clarification seems needed. 

Many thanks, 

A. 

[Kevin Sutter]

Good day, Amelia,
I am not an expert with the Eclipse Foundation -- learning as I am going here.  I will relay my understanding of the process.  But, here's the link to the overall proposal process as defined by the Eclipse Foundation.  Also, Wayne may chime in if any of my information is not exactly accurate.  :-)
http://www.eclipse.org/projects/dev_process/development_process.php

One area that does cause some confusion is the idea of Project Leads, initial committers, and an Eclipse Work Group...

First off, the Project Lead is more of a "figure head" position.  They are put in place just to help ensure that the Eclipse rules, guidelines, and processes are followed.  They do not define the direction of the Project.  Since I started the proposal, I think I'm considered an initial project lead.  I also nominated Martijn since he was the only other MicroProfile participant that I could find in the Eclipse "address book".  :-)  Personally, I don't think Martijn is all that thrilled with being listed as a project lead, but he was quite helpful in reviewing my initial drafts.  Also, at JavaOne, David Blevins "volunteered" John as a project lead, so I put his name in as well.  In the end, three project leads may be too many and we may drop back to two (it's always good to have a backup).

An Eclipse Work Group helps define the actual direction of a particular project or projects.  Currently, we do not have a Work Group defined for MicroProfile, but I would expect that one is created eventually.  I would also expect that all of the key vendors and user groups would become part of that Work Group.  I'm sure the formation of this Work Group will commence once we get our Project proposal accepted.  One step at a time...

As far as the initial committers list...  The key word here is "initial".  I just pulled the names of the people that have been contributing to the github site and the various documents that the MicroProfile team have been involved with.  We can always add to the committer list after the proposal is accepted.  It's not final, but we need an initial set of committers defined for the proposal.

I hope these explanations help.  Please post additional questions, if you have them.  I will answer them to the best of my ability.

Thanks,
Kevin

[Wayne Beaton]

There are some basic definitions and pointers to more information in the Eclipse Project Handbook's glossary.

https://www.eclipse.org/projects/handbook/#glossary

The section on starting a new project provides an overview of minimum requirements and responsibilities.

https://www.eclipse.org/projects/handbook/#starting

I'm not sure that I'd describe a project lead as a "figure head"...

In addition to the very specific things that you've listed, Project Leads do tend to provide leadership in the project. While they are not solely responsible for defining the direction of the project, they do tend to be an individual (or individuals) who can guide the committers in a particular direction.

Working Groups are primarily about industry collaboration. Depending on how they are set up and the goals that are established, a Working Group may exert some influence over the direction of a project or projects, engage in marketing activities, and other sorts of activities at a business level.

Ultimate power in an Eclipse Project rests in the hands of the committers. 

HTH,


Wayne

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[John D. Ament]

One note on the below email. I was surprised that my name was not listed below.  So I went ahead and tried to register an EFA, which failed saying my email address already existed.  I couldn't login with it, so I reset my password.  The reset was successful, still couldn't login.  I emailed "webmaster" which I'm assuming is their infra team.  They're not sure why it seems at this point I can't login.  I asked them to delete my account.  No response yet.

If this can't be resolved, I won't be able to join you guys at the Eclipse Foundation.  I'm not sure if our proposed mentors can help here.

John

[Werner Keil]

Eclipse Committer accounts are asked in regular intervals (90 days I believe) to reset their password, so your old password would not work.
It is rarely necessary that you'd have to completely delete your account, but a few things e.g. login to the CI instances changed from username (that would be something like the Apache alias, "wkeil" in my case for both) to email address.

You picked a bad time for your problem. I just saw Dennis Roy, one of the Eclipse webmasters during the Meet and Greet beer. It's EclipseCon Europe in Germany for most of the week, so there may be fewer people responding to these issues.
Try again later unless they find a time between conference sessions and beer;-)

HTH,
Werner

[Amelia Eiras]

Kevin thanks for the prompt reply! :)

Wayne, it is a pleasure to virtually meet you.  Thank for the clarification on a few sections from Kevin’s response & for sharing the links.  Both links have provided useful data & a better understanding of MP Proposal.  

------

MP proposal is similar to what a corporation calls its Bylaws & Resolution, formidably cool. 

To all active MP contributors, MP proposal is going to become the base of “MP Truth” under the Eclipse umbrella.  Your direct input is needed & cannot wait. It is crucial & of most importance to share your feedback while the Proposal is reviewed.   

——

2 Questions for Wayne with regards to:… "I'm not sure that I'd describe a project lead as a "figure head"…  Project Leads do tend to provide leadership in the project… "

• Can the Project Leads be chosen at a later time? 

If the option is available, I would like Proposal to skip section & add “future elections under Eclipse rules”  instead.  

Formal community vote by  MP Committers adds a clear message to MP unbiased body, specially on its 1st year.

• If the answer is yes, what is a healthy average number under the Eclipse projects for project leads in a new project such an MP?

If the answer is no… 1 suggestion is to get lawyers  draft a simple 1 page agreement to be signed by leads,  stating the "temporary need" for accepting such responsibility to help with Proposal requirements. Once process is completed, Leads will let go of their positions & nomination & vote will take place by MP committers. 

——

2 Questions for Kevin about the current list of Committers:

• MicroProfile.io contains a list of contributors, who are not listed in current Proposal, why? 

Antonio Goncalves, Greg Luck, Emily Jiang, Ondrej Mihalyi, Werner Keil, Ivar Grimstad, Mark Struberg,  Ivan Ivanov… & others including myself.

From the google group, missing key contributors that ought to also be added to Proposal as  committers without the need for a vote are:   

Alex Soto, Heiko Braun, James Roper, Gunnar (both IO & google group), & a few others.

Those individuals have helped MP; thus far  their work voids the requirement for a Eclipse Statement of Merit to allow he/she nomination & call for a vote. 

 MP Proposal needs to  clearly recognize MP's current active contributors, their passion.   Please lets do our very best not to forget core contributors= committers  in MP Proposal. 

• Can MP proposal state MP's mission after Background section? 

—--

Wayne wrote: " Ultimate power in an Eclipse Project rests in the hands of the committers. “ 

When I read above sentence, “ultimate power” reminded me of He-Man & She-Ra’s shows. So very cool,  it made me smile!  :)

B/c the Proposal is = to MP Bylaws, Committers are the core.  Each one of us, as individuals,  have a voice, our input now now & vote later will help shape MP’s awesome future.   

Thank you for openly discussing Proposal with all interested MP readers.

 Thanks you  Kevin & Wayne for allowing me to share my thoughts based on your input. :)  

  

Amelia Eiras 

https://twitter.com/ameliaeiras

http://www.tomitribe.com

https://www.tomitribe.io

[John Clingan]

Or maybe supposed to do twice the work :-)

[Wayne Beaton]

We need to designate at least one initial project lead. IMHO, an individual who is taking on the responsibility of creating a proposal and coordinating the discussion regarding the move to the Eclipse Foundation sounds like an ideal candidate. Once the dust settles on the move, the project may decide to run an election to ratify existing project leads, or nominate replacements.

It is rare for a project lead to be removed from the position. Most often people will voluntarily retire from the role.

If you're concerned, maybe we should start with just one Project Lead appointment and plan to elect alternates at some later date.

Frankly, I'm a little concerned that you feel a need to include lawyers. For me, an agreement between peers that the project leadership will be re-evaluated after the project bootstraps at the Eclipse Foundation is enough. Or is there some risk of Kevin getting drunk with power? (I'm hopeful that this last sentence will be regarded as funny)

Wayne

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[Amelia Eiras]

Hola again Wayne, 

On Oct 25, 2016, at 12:51 PM, Wayne Beaton <wayne....@eclipse.org> wrote:

We need to designate at least one initial project lead. IMHO, an individual who is taking on the responsibility of creating a proposal and coordinating the discussion regarding the move to the Eclipse Foundation sounds like an ideal candidate. Once the dust settles on the move, the project may decide to run an election to ratify existing project leads, or nominate replacements.

+1

It is rare for a project lead to be removed from the position. Most often people will voluntarily retire from the role.  

If you're concerned,  not concern, the 3 individuals named as potential leads are amazing & deserving.  maybe we should start with just one Project Lead appointment and plan to elect alternates at some later date.  Preferred option, it has 100%. 

Frankly, I'm a little concerned  my feedback is not based on mistrust on any member on MP, each individual  listed is deserving.  :) that you feel a need to include lawyers.   NOW, the discipline  on how MP appoint responsibility from its very start & the “proper” methods considered behind those actions  are were my focus is at on  early feedback. 

Writing data directly in Proposal helps explain the “why” & gathers support as it asserts the acknowledgment of its Community.     

 Personally, I am all for destroying roles, increasing or decreasing responsibilities & re-adjusting rules, it depends on the task at hand & the individual who commands it with other stuff.     Change is needed to foster a heathy growth in most things, specially new projects.  

 I see MP Proposal as part of its first Operations strategy.   Treating it proposal as such it helping define its skeleton with visible steps explaining the why in writing, which in turns minimizes  assumptions, & potential misconstrue versions of the truth behind this process.     For me, an agreement between peers that the project leadership will be re-evaluated after the project bootstraps at the Eclipse Foundation is enough.   Option  sounds ideal.  however MP still doesn’t have a way to achieve data efficiently…  say in 3 months:   “new interested comers”  might be interested on MP history to Eclipse, Proposal will be public and must be self-explanatory/  From experience, skipping such a simple step now might bring extra unnecessary  work in the future for us & new comers who likely won’t know were to find  this thread or even have the time to read in careful detail data on G for MP.    

 How we make now & future MP decisions not only transparent but also scalable, where MP actions are backed up by sound reasoning based on available choices  rules over anything else.   Bias to the core, yet this is only 1 opinion. :)   Since Proposal is a writing compromise from MP to Eclipse, might as well- add important data to Proposal about Kevin being the deserving temporary or full time lead, up to Committers later!  :)   Or is there some risk of Kevin getting drunk with power?  

  Kevin as a lead +1 in my book. Thank you for taking the lead on this Kevin, you are pretty amazing,  wise & also an unbiased professional with anything pertaining MP.   (I'm hopeful that this last sentence will be regarded as funny)  yes, I am smiling. 

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[Kevin Sutter]

I'm going to go have another beer....   ;)

Hola again Wayne, 

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[Andy Gumbrecht]

I've scanned through it and, when adjusted to include the issues / comments already made here, it looks good to me.

Andy.

[Andy Gumbrecht]

And I hope I get to join Kevin and the rest of you for a beer soon too!

On Wednesday, 19 October 2016 18:43:28 UTC+2, Kevin Sutter wrote:

[Kevin Sutter]

Trying to wade through all of the suggestions here...

I am fine with being listed as the sole project lead for this initial proposal.  With the intent of adding to or even replacing me with other project leads after we become a real Eclipse project.  Since this topic was mainly just between Amelia and Wayne, are there any seconds to this proposal?  Martijn and/or John C...  Need to hear from you at least since you are both currently listed as co-project leads.

The other topic is the list of committers...  I'm conflicted on what to do here.  To be honest, I thought our list of initial committers was already too big.  I started off much smaller and then added individuals as they spoke up.  Amelia, I have nothing against your suggested list of additional committers, but where do we draw the line?  Wayne, what's common practice here?  When I have been part of Apache proposals, the list of initial committers was deliberately keep constrained.  But, maybe things or times have changed...

Thanks, Kevin

[Kevin Sutter]

Andy,
Thanks for the review.  I still see the warning at the top of the proposal page where you are not recognized with an Eclipse Foundation Account. 

Committer Andy Gumbrecht must create an Eclipse Foundation Account.

I have been advised that all of these accounts must be cleaned up before submitting the proposal.  This might be one way to skinny down the committer list...  :-)

As a reminder, here are the ones that still need to be updated...

• Committer David Blevins must create an Eclipse Foundation Account.
• Committer Andy Gumbrecht must create an Eclipse Foundation Account.
• Committer Thiago Veronezi must create an Eclipse Foundation Account.
• Committer Jonathan S. Fisher must create an Eclipse Foundation Account.
• Committer Mark Little must create an Eclipse Foundation Account.

Thanks!
Kevin

[Martijn Verburg]

I gladly back out of a leadership role here :-).  The project needs to be lead by someone with a daily connection to Enterprise Java.  I think John would also make an excellent lead, perhaps the burden could be shared.

Cheers,
Martijn

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[Amelia Eiras]

To all, 

please see comments below: 

On Oct 26, 2016, at 8:44 AM, Martijn Verburg <martijn...@gmail.com> wrote:

I gladly back out of a leadership role here :-).  The project needs to be lead by someone with a daily connection to Enterprise Java.  I think John would also make an excellent lead, perhaps the burden could be shared.

Cheers,
Martijn

On 26 October 2016 at 16:40, Kevin Sutter <kwsu...@gmail.com> wrote:

Trying to wade through all of the suggestions here...

I am fine with being listed as the sole project lead for this initial proposal.  With the intent of adding to or even replacing me with other project leads after we become a real Eclipse project.  Since this topic was mainly just between Amelia and Wayne, are there any seconds to this proposal?  Martijn and/or John C...  Need to hear from you at least since you are both currently listed as co-project leads.

The other topic is the list of committers...  I'm conflicted on what to do here.  To be honest, I thought our list of initial committers was already too big.  PDF draft shared on Oct 19th lists 14 committers.   I started off much smaller and then added individuals as they spoke up.   what is the current count after feedback?  Amelia, I have nothing against your suggested list of additional committers, but where do we draw the line?     Wayne, what's common practice here?     When I have been part of Apache proposals, the list of initial committers was deliberately keep constrained.  But, maybe things or times have changed…

Wayne is there a limit on initial committers for a Eclipse proposal?

Active MP contributors comes up to less than 50 individuals. 

As of today, Oct 26th  MP site has 38 contributors listed via MP.io:  http://microprofile.io/contributors

About ~10 other contributors missing from MP.io  work  directly via Google MP Group,  which has a total of 505 readers.  

———

Aside from a few core individuals, MP was founded by 4 Vendors: IBM, RedHat, Payara & Tomitribe; 1 JUG: JJC with SouJava joining a bit later. 6 organized bodies. 

If there is a limit of number of Committers for proposal, I recommend current Proposal committers gets adjusted. 

Lets shift focus to fairness on who gets added as initial Committer to match whatever requirements there are on process.  

From Tomitribe there are 4 names listed in Proposal. Assuming there is a limit, PLEASE take out Thiago & Jonathan, change leaves David and Andy. 

Lets use those 2 spots for 2 individuals mentioned on previews feedback. 

I recommended Proposal uses equal number of seats for Vendors, JUGs behind MP creation.

Thanks to everyone for being this amazing while working openly on direct feedback on MP Proposal.  It is wonderful to see. More voices are welcomed! 

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[Otávio Gonçalves de Santana]

Hello Kevin.

Just left a SouJava member on this initial team.

Please, add me.

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[Werner Keil]

Hello,

As mentioned earlier, I am an existing Eclipse committer. Where the new Eclipse Contributor Agreement is beneficial (I spoke to Wayne about that by mail and briefly on Monday at ECE) I am happy to send it as soon as Eclipse staff is back from their conference week.

I am on the list of contributors like most others who followed the guideline, but especially through items like license headers or the best (Maven, Gradle, etc.) plugins to check them also help to get existing artifacts in the right shape. Based on experience with Eclipse projects or in JSR Expert Groups, etc.

So I have no problems with a committer or contributor listing, too.

Werner

Cheers,
Martijn

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[John Clingan]

Okie Dokie. Sign me up. Kinda miss being a benevolent dictator. It was an awesome rush, probably better than Kevin's case of beer.

More seriously, I'd be honored to be a (or the) Project Lead. As to the duration of project lead mentioned earlier, we can play that by ear. If it doesn't seriously impact my day job and others think I am doing a good job, then I'll hang around as lead. If my day job and other activities impact my ability to be project lead, or others think I should step down for whatever reason, then we'll rotate it to someone else. Or we can set up an annual (or bi-annual) rotating role.  I'm open to whatever the community thinks is best.

[Amelia Eiras]

pretty awesome honest follow up John! :) 

Amelia Eiras 

https://twitter.com/ameliaeiras

http://www.tomitribe.com

https://www.tomitribe.io

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[Wayne Beaton]

There is no theoretical limit to the number of committers.

I would, however, strongly recommend that you only include individuals who will actually be committing code to the project on an ongoing basis.

Wayne

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[Kevin Sutter]

The comments have really started to dwindle...  I'll post another version of the pdf shortly and then I'll be submitting the proposal for public review.  Then, it will be accessible to everyone.  Much easier to make and receive comments.  And, then we should be ready for the November Eclipse Board meeting.

But, one thing that still needs to be cleaned up are the committers that haven't accepted the Eclipse CLA yet...  I know from talking with Mark and Alasdair, there seems to be an issue on the Eclipse side of things to get this straightened out.  Please try to work with Eclipse to get your userid properly recognized by Eclipse.  Here is the list of delinquent accounts with the corresponding email that I used.  If a different email should be used, please let me know.  If these don't get resolved, I'll have to drop you from the initial committers list.  Thanks for your attention.

Committer David Blevins must create an Eclipse Foundation Account.

david....@gmail.com

Committer Andy Gumbrecht must create an Eclipse Foundation Account.

agumb...@tomitribe.com

Committer Thiago Veronezi must create an Eclipse Foundation Account.

tver...@tomitribe.com

Committer Jonathan S. Fisher must create an Eclipse Foundation Account.

jfi...@tomitribe.com

Committer Mark Little must create an Eclipse Foundation Account.

markc...@gmail.com

Thanks, Kevin

Cheers,
Martijn

Hola again Wayne, 

John

On Thursday, October 20, 2016 at 8:16:46 AM UTC-4, Kevin Sutter wrote: <blockquote

[Kevin Sutter]

Here's the latest version of the proposal...  Note, per the discussion here I removed Martijn from the Project Lead list.  I left myself and John as co-leads.  We will adjust this Project Leadership post-approval per the community's involvement.  The rest of the changes were pretty benign.

Thanks, Kevin

On Thursday, November 3, 2016 at 12:57:48 PM UTC-5, Kevin Sutter wrote:

The comments have really started to dwindle...  I'll post another version of the pdf shortly and then I'll be submitting the proposal for public review.  Then, it will be accessible to everyone.  Much easier to make and receive comments.  And, then we should be ready for the November Eclipse Board meeting.

But, one thing that still needs to be cleaned up are the committers that haven't accepted the Eclipse CLA yet...  I know from talking with Mark and Alasdair, there seems to be an issue on the Eclipse side of things to get this straightened out.  Please try to work with Eclipse to get your userid properly recognized by Eclipse.  Here is the list of delinquent accounts with the corresponding email that I used.  If a different email should be used, please let me know.  If these don't get resolved, I'll have to drop you from the initial committers list.  Thanks for your attention.

Committer David Blevins must create an Eclipse Foundation Account.

david.blevins@g...com

Committer Andy Gumbrecht must create an Eclipse Foundation Account.

agumbrecht@t...com

Committer Thiago Veronezi must create an Eclipse Foundation Account.

tveronezi@t...com

Committer Jonathan S. Fisher must create an Eclipse Foundation Account.

jfisher@t...com

Committer Mark Little must create an Eclipse Foundation Account.

markclittle@g...com

[Amelia Eiras]

Kevin, 

Let me just say how very amazing you are at leading MP proposal. Thank you! 

New draft reads stronger.

----- 

Reiterating previews feedback-  committers section  (thank YOU Wayne for answering our questions).  

1- Otavio Santana asked us to add him to the proposal commiters list as the representative of SouJava. 

2- Tomitribe representation needs to be adjusted.  See below:  

Copy/paste from email feedback Oct 26th:

AB: "From Tomitribe there are 4 names listed in Proposal. Assuming there is a limit, PLEASE take out Thiago & Jonathan, change leaves David and Andy. Those 2 spots ought to be used for 2  individuals mentioned on previews feedback. "  

-------

Using Wayne's feedback,  can MP proposal use equal number of seats for Vendors & JUGs behind it?  

</b

[Martijn Verburg]

Hi Kevin,

If you could add me as a committer also - thanks for pushing this forwards!

Cheers,
Martijn

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[Kevin Sutter]

Thanks, Amelia,

On Thursday, November 3, 2016 at 10:02:04 PM UTC-5, Amelia Eiras wrote:

1- Otavio Santana asked us to add him to the proposal commiters list as the representative of SouJava. 

I reached out to Otavio to get the proper email address and he indicated to hold off on including him at this time.  One reminder -- this proposal is not THE final answer.  During the review period and even after it's approved, we can continue to add additional committers.  When we're part of Eclipse, we'll have to follow the defined process. But, the committer list will continue to evolve.

2- Tomitribe representation needs to be adjusted.  See below:  

Copy/paste from email feedback Oct 26th:

AB: "From Tomitribe there are 4 names listed in Proposal. Assuming there is a limit, PLEASE take out Thiago & Jonathan, change leaves David and Andy. Those 2 spots ought to be used for 2  individuals mentioned on previews feedback. "  

 

I didn't make this change since there didn't seem to be defined limit.  I can still remove Thiago and Jonathan if your team thinks this is the proper change.  But, I really didn't feel a need to remove or limit the list of committers based on a Tomitribe "limit".  Your call though.
 

-------

Using Wayne's feedback,  can MP proposal use equal number of seats for Vendors & JUGs behind it?  

Aside from a few core individuals, MP was founded by 4 Vendors: IBM, RedHat, Payara & Tomitribe; 1 JUG: JJC with SouJava joining a bit later. 

6 organized bodies. 

 

Again, I'm not too hung up on getting an exact number per vendor or founding member.  I created the original list based on the activity of the members at that time.
 
Thanks again for your feedback!  And, your vote of confidence.  :-)
Kevin

  

On Thursday, November 3, 2016 at 11:24:04 AM UTC-7, Kevin Sutter wrote:

Here's the latest version of the proposal...  Note, per the discussion here I removed Martijn from the Project Lead list.  I left myself and John as co-leads.  We will adjust this Project Leadership post-approval per the community's involvement.  The rest of the changes were pretty benign.

Thanks, Kevin

On Thursday, November 3, 2016 at 12:57:48 PM UTC-5, Kevin Sutter wrote:

The comments have really started to dwindle...  I'll post another version of the pdf shortly and then I'll be submitting the proposal for public review.  Then, it will be accessible to everyone.  Much easier to make and receive comments.  And, then we should be ready for the November Eclipse Board meeting.

But, one thing that still needs to be cleaned up are the committers that haven't accepted the Eclipse CLA yet...  I know from talking with Mark and Alasdair, there seems to be an issue on the Eclipse side of things to get this straightened out.  Please try to work with Eclipse to get your userid properly recognized by Eclipse.  Here is the list of delinquent accounts with the corresponding email that I used.  If a different email should be used, please let me know.  If these don't get resolved, I'll have to drop you from the initial committers list.  Thanks for your attention.

Committer David Blevins must create an Eclipse Foundation Account.

david.blevins@g...com

Committer Andy Gumbrecht must create an Eclipse Foundation Account.

agumb...@t...com

Committer Thiago Veronezi must create an Eclipse Foundation Account.

tver...@t...com

Committer Jonathan S. Fisher must create an Eclipse Foundation Account.

jfi...@t...com

Committer Mark Little must create an Eclipse Foundation Account.

markc...@g...com

[Kevin Sutter]

Doh!  Of course...  I didn't realize you weren't listed on the list of committers.  Making that change right now.

Thanks,
Kevin

Cheers,
Martijn

agumb...@t...com

Committer Thiago Veronezi must create an Eclipse Foundation Account.

tver...@t...com

Committer Jonathan S. Fisher must create an Eclipse Foundation Account.

jfi...@t...com

Committer Mark Little must create an Eclipse Foundation Account.

markc...@g...com

</b

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[Amelia Eiras]

Ok, so there won’t add a limit to initial Committer  list. 

AND like Martijn & Otavio, active MP contributors can asked openly via this thread to be added to proposal list. 

That status sounds fantastic. 

——

Please leave in Jonathan & Thiago- those Tribers have been helping with website issues & PR mergers. 

To do: JSF, TV - need to create Eclipse accounts,  also David. is that correct Kevin? 

Mil gracias, 

Amelia Eiras 

https://twitter.com/ameliaeiras

http://www.tomitribe.com

https://www.tomitribe.io

[Kevin Sutter]

On Friday, November 4, 2016 at 11:41:32 AM UTC-5, Amelia Eiras wrote:

Please leave in Jonathan & Thiago- those Tribers have been helping with website issues & PR mergers. 

To do: JSF, TV - need to create Eclipse accounts,  also David. is that correct Kevin? 

Correct, Amelia.

I am in the process of requesting the proposal to be public.  We can correct the Eclipse accounts while it is in public review.

Thanks,
Kevin
 

[Werner Keil]

Not sure, where Otavio contributed directly to the MP repositories, unless he's also supposed to be listed as "Triber"?;-)

He did however facilitate Microprofile technology (REST, CDI, JSON-P) in a live demo we presented during a JSR 363 BOF at JavaOne:
https://github.com/JNOSQL/diana-demos/tree/master/diana-ee

I offered to demonstrate it at the upcoming Eclipse DemoCamp Darmstadt (hosted by SmartHome committers with a strong IoT emphasis)
https://wiki.eclipse.org/Eclipse_DemoCamp_Neon_2016/Darmstadt?mc_cid=9bb770c6f2&mc_eid=ab7d983b5d#Abstracts

And maybe after the Eclipse transition (or whenever Otavio feels it's appropriate) I already asked him about potentially adding this as a "Sensor Web" real life example for Microprofile.

Werner

[Kevin Sutter]

Just to keep everybody up-to-date...  I submitted the proposal to the Eclipse project management office.  They are in the process of checking on trademarks and other misc activities.  I also had to create and submit a short chart deck on why we wanted the Apache v2 license instead of the standard EPL.  This is standard procedure for any license usage other than EPL.  This alternate license request will be discussed at the next Eclipse board meeting in November.  I don't see any issues with getting this aspect approved by the board.

So, everything is moving along and I anticipate that we'll be accepted by the Eclipse Foundation by end of November.

We will then have to clean up our source code with the proper copyrights, ensure the license is specified correctly, etc.  But, one step at a time...

Thanks for your patience.
Kevin

[Kevin Sutter]

Oh yeah, and the proposal is public now...  I think anybody can see it now.  At least I can now see it without logging in (couldn't before)...
https://projects.eclipse.org/proposals/eclipse-microprofile

Thanks, Kevin

[Mark Little]

Thanks for driving this Kevin!

Sent from my iPhone

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[Martijn Verburg]

+1 - this is a great step forward for this initiative and I'm grateful that you're taking on the 'paperwork' load for us all.

Cheers,
Martijn

On 12 November 2016 at 22:44, Mark Little <markc...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks for driving this Kevin!

Sent from my iPhone

On 12 Nov 2016, at 21:40, Kevin Sutter <kwsu...@gmail.com> wrote:

Just to keep everybody up-to-date...  I submitted the proposal to the Eclipse project management office.  They are in the process of checking on trademarks and other misc activities.  I also had to create and submit a short chart deck on why we wanted the Apache v2 license instead of the standard EPL.  This is standard procedure for any license usage other than EPL.  This alternate license request will be discussed at the next Eclipse board meeting in November.  I don't see any issues with getting this aspect approved by the board.

So, everything is moving along and I anticipate that we'll be accepted by the Eclipse Foundation by end of November.

We will then have to clean up our source code with the proper copyrights, ensure the license is specified correctly, etc.  But, one step at a time...

Thanks for your patience.
Kevin

On Monday, November 7, 2016 at 7:01:11 AM UTC-6, Werner Keil wrote:

Not sure, where Otavio contributed directly to the MP repositories, unless he's also supposed to be listed as "Triber"?;-)

He did however facilitate Microprofile technology (REST, CDI, JSON-P) in a live demo we presented during a JSR 363 BOF at JavaOne:
https://github.com/JNOSQL/diana-demos/tree/master/diana-ee

I offered to demonstrate it at the upcoming Eclipse DemoCamp Darmstadt (hosted by SmartHome committers with a strong IoT emphasis)
https://wiki.eclipse.org/Eclipse_DemoCamp_Neon_2016/Darmstadt?mc_cid=9bb770c6f2&mc_eid=ab7d983b5d#Abstracts

And maybe after the Eclipse transition (or whenever Otavio feels it's appropriate) I already asked him about potentially adding this as a "Sensor Web" real life example for Microprofile.

Werner

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[David Blevins]

Thank you so greatly, Kevin, for driving.

Eclipse account created.

-David

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[David Blevins]

Kevin, used my @tomitribe.com address.

On the proposal and the Project Lead roles.  I did get feedback at Devoxx from a couple people reluctant to join the community viewing it as primarily a community focused on one or two vendors.  I assured them this is not the case and detailed we actually did a large amount of work on the website, logo, domain, getting us ready for launch, etc.  This seemed to help greatly.

I'd like to be listed as a lead as I think having a little guy there shows an overall stronger project.

[Kevin Sutter]

David,

I just updated the proposal to use your tomitribe.com address for the committer list.  It didn't immediately remove the warning at the top of the proposal, but maybe it provides eventual consistency...  :-)

As far as the leader roles...  I could add you, but doesn't it sound a little strange that some people are basing their view of the community on who the figurehead (my view, not Eclipse's) project leads are?  Wouldn't they be more interested in seeing who is driving the conversations, the samples, and the proposals?  That is a combination of vendors (big and small), java user communities, as well as individuals.  That's how I would evaluate a community rather than who the project leads are.  But, I guess that's just me...

And, if we really want to show community involvement instead of vendors, maybe we should change the project leads to be from the Java User Groups and/or Individuals?  This was all discussed previous to the proposal going public and it was decided (in this string of notes) that we would re-evaluate the project lead roles once we get past this creation of the Eclipse project.  Personally, I'd love to see Martijn (LJC) and Otavio (SouJava) take over the project lead roles after the project is created.  But, I'm not sure if their normal work activities would allow them the time to do this.

In any case, I can update the project leads and add David to the proposal, but since this is in contrast to our earlier discussions and decisions, I'd like to hear from the rest of the team.  And, not just tomitribe members...  :-)

Thanks,

Kevin

[David Blevins]

Lets retract and save discussion for more important things.

Forward we go! :)

-David

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[John Clingan]

+1!!

[Kevin Sutter]

For those of you wondering why your name is not bolded in the list of initial committers for the proposal, try this workaround...  Go to the main projects page (https://projects.eclipse.org/) and click on "log in" in the upper right hand corner.  Use your eclipse id to log in.  Assuming you can successfully log in, then your name should now be bolded on our MicroProfile proposal (https://projects.eclipse.org/proposals/eclipse-microprofile).  Enjoy!

Kevin

Cheers,
Martijn

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[jays...@gmail.com]

Good stuff and I'll be happy to contribute to it! Although a naive question:

I haven't used Eclipse in a while (like I said naive question:)) but as far as I know its an IDE/Toolset so what are we Microservicing here, the tool runtime or the output produced by it?

Jay

[Everson Ferreira da Cunha Junior]

Hi, Jay!

Let me try explain for you. Although Eclipse IDE is so much recognized as a product, the Eclipse is more than just a application. It's a opensource foundation that organize with its own structure the development of many other opensource projects. So, I have understand that the Microprofile project will be developed under the Eclipse Foundation structure. You should read more about in this link: https://www.eclipse.org/projects/dev_process/development_process.php.

Forgive me with my English. I'm learning.

[Ken Finnigan]

Kevin,

Any word on whether MicroProfile was accepted?

Thanks

Ken

[Kevin Sutter]

Sorry, Ken, for not posting.  Over the weekend, we found out that the Eclipse board meeting to discuss our Apache license requirement had to be canceled due to personal reasons of the board president.  So, until we get that resolved, we can't go ahead with the project creation.

I just found out that the Dec board meeting is scheduled for Dec 14 and our project creation review should happen very shortly after that.  Everything seems to be in place to get this all done yet this year!

Thanks for your patience,
Kevin

[Mike Milinkovich]

Hi everyone,

I am happy to report that this morning the Eclipse Foundation Board of Directors unanimously approved the Eclipse Microprofile project joining the Eclipse Foundation under the Apache License v2.0 (ALv2). So congrats, and welcome to the Eclipse community! It is now official, and I believe that the project will be created and provisioned shortly.

However, the Eclipse Foundation Board also made a request that the Microprofile team re-consider dual-licensing the project ALv2+EPL. We would offer assistance in gathering up any required permissions from prior contributors. The reasons behind this request are:

• To support the conventions of the Eclipse community and its license.
• To support the copying of code between projects within the Eclipse community.

There is no down-side to adopters in having this dual license in place. So on behalf of the Eclipse community, I would respectfully ask that you consider this request.

Thanks.

[Kevin Sutter]

Thank you, Mike!  Very good news!

We will need to consider this dual licensing request.  Some members of the community had very strong opinions on not going the dual license route, but that may have been specific to the EPL+BSD route.  We'll get back with you on that.

Thanks again,

Kevin

[John Clingan]

Thanks on the update Mike! This is an important milestone in the evolution of MicroProfile.

[Amelia Eiras]

Thank you all involved in proposal and bringing MP to this point, pretty exciting! 

Special thanks to Mike and Eclipse team for being formidable patient and answering so many questions. You guys are great!

Amelia Eiras 

https://twitter.com/ameliaeiras

http://www.tomitribe.com

https://www.tomitribe.io

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[agumb...@tomitribe.com]

+1 for dual ALv2 & EPL 1.0

agumb...@tomitribe.com

http://www.tomitribe.com

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[David Blevins]

Quickly following up to say we’re discussing this.  Dual license was discussed as a showstopper early on.

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David Blevins

http://twitter.com/dblevins
http://www.tomitribe.com

310-633-3852

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[Mike Milinkovich]

On Thursday, December 15, 2016 at 2:51:56 PM UTC-5, David Blevins wrote:

Quickly following up to say we’re discussing this.  Dual license was discussed as a showstopper early on.

David,

I do not recall ever discussing EPL + ALv2. 

But to repeat what I said: Microprofile is fully approved to proceed with the ALv2 only. That is done, so there is nothing preventing forward progress, nor is there a "show stopper" happening here.

In the Board discussion, no one could articulate a downside to dual licensing EPL+ALv2. And to be honest, I cannot think of a downside either. Based on that, I was asked to make the request for the team to re-consider. However, if there is one just say so here, or point me to any prior conversations where that's already been discussed. Regrettably I cannot claim to have read every post in this thread. 

But in any event, progress can be made on migrating the project to Eclipse while we are discussing this.

I hope that helps.

[John D. Ament]

I've pointed out the downsides to EPL in the past (at least I think I did).  In the case of a dual license its moot, since you pick the most permissive by default (which would be ALv2).

Some of what I see as troublesome about EPL:

- A download link to the source code for the redistribution under a commercial product is required (typically within notices) as per 3.b.iv

- If I fall under the Contributor mark, I personally have to defend it in a legal means (section 4).

- It does not protect trademarks

John

[Werner Keil]

Guess it would make it easier to interact with other Eclipse projects (e.g. IoT and many others) 

Couldn't particular modules or sub-projects (there isn't just one single project even if it may be accepted as a project right now) also decide this on a case-by case basis of they use dual-licensing or stick to ALv2 only?

[Mike Milinkovich]

On Friday, December 16, 2016 at 2:26:55 PM UTC-5, Werner Keil wrote:

Couldn't particular modules or sub-projects (there isn't just one single project even if it may be accepted as a project right now) also decide this on a case-by case basis of they use dual-licensing or stick to ALv2 only?

At the moment Microprofile is organized as one project. If things change in the future we can discuss options then. 

 

[Werner Keil]

Guess that means if they really remain that way, e.g. what Emily started for "config" would more or less be considered a "bundle" or module.
And all modules must use the same license I assume?

I am pretty sure, ownership of bundles/modules underneath larger projects is not always by the same person or company, so enough experience in other Eclipse projects exist on how to deal with that.

 

[Werner Keil]

Taking Nebula as example (because it's under the same TLD as MP) https://projects.eclipse.org/projects/technology.nebula, I guess it should be just as easy to add sub-modules a'la "NatTable" or an "Incubator" as it was there?

[David Blevins]

On Dec 15, 2016, at 3:24 PM, Mike Milinkovich <mike.mil...@eclipse.org> wrote:

On Thursday, December 15, 2016 at 2:51:56 PM UTC-5, David Blevins wrote:

Quickly following up to say we’re discussing this.  Dual license was discussed as a showstopper early on.

David,

I do not recall ever discussing EPL + ALv2. 

But to repeat what I said: Microprofile is fully approved to proceed with the ALv2 only. That is done, so there is nothing preventing forward progress

Happy new year, all.  Following up on this.

We discussed and would like to continue forward with ALv2 only.  We did discuss dual license on the MP list in the "DISCUSS: Software Foundation for Microprofile” thread prior to JavaOne and quite a bit at JavaOne prior to submitting the proposal.

There are complexities and continuous maintenance involved in dual licensing and we’d prefer not to introduce them.  Dual licensing makes you a universal donor, but it makes it twice as hard to pull code in always needing some kind of missing grant, ALv2 or EPL.  It also gives the impression people can pick the license they need, when in fact we’ll have a significant quantity of ALv2 dependencies.  Additionally the Microservices world is overwhelmingly ALv2 with things like the Netflix Hystrix, Kubernetes, Docker and significant quantities of our own OS investments.

These aren’t all the reasons and the meta concern is it being a distraction while we really need to be focusing on other things.  

We appreciate the board support of ALv2.  We have considered as requested.  We’d like to keep things as they are move forward into 2017 with continued strong momentum.

-David

[Mike Milinkovich]

David, et al,

Thank you for your consideration, and we of course accept your final decision.

We will proceed with provisioning the Eclipse Microprofile project. 

Welcome to the Eclipse community everyone!

[Kevin Sutter]

Thanks, Mike!

[John Clingan]

Hurray! :-)

[Andy Gumbrecht]

Great, this means we can ditch the EPL discussion and carry on marching.

Andy.

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