Proposal: Host MicroProfile in Jakarta EE

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John Clingan

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Mar 19, 2025, 4:37:52 PMMar 19
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At yesterday's MicroProfile Steering Committee call, John and Emily presented "Proposal: Host MicroProfile in Jakarta EE". Before replying to this post, please review the meeting minutes to see what has been discussed. Please use this thread to continue the discussion. The proposal is at a high level, and some details would need to be worked out if this proposal moves forward.

However, for the proposal to move forward, we would need to have a vote.  We are not there yet because the details matter.

Let's discuss the details in this thread, which is dual-posted to the Google Group and the MicroProfile Working Group email alias.

For those that attended the meeting, please review the minutes for accuracy.

Thanks!

Reza Rahman

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Mar 19, 2025, 5:17:58 PMMar 19
to microp...@googlegroups.com, Edward Burns

This is a great direction and it is an easy +1 from Microsoft.

In terms of naming, things like Jakarta Health is a lot less of a mouthful than Jakarta MicroProfile Health. We do believe maintaining the MicroProfile brand and differentiation is important and valuable. For example, the resulting new Jakarta Profile could be called "Micro Profile". Similarly, associated sensible package names that would be clear to the community and customers could be: jakarta.microprofile.*. Unfortunately things like org.microprofile.* inside Jakarta EE may prove to be too confusing as it implies a separate domain.

From a Microsoft standpoint, we will do whatever we sensibly can to ensure this is not seen as a zero sum outcome dynamic for anyone and only a net gain for all.

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Anbu Sampath

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Mar 19, 2025, 6:33:25 PMMar 19
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Big +1 for unifying Microprofile and Jakarta EE. Here are come of my thoughts,

New Profile: Along with other Jakarta profiles, new profile can be called "Jakarta Micro" Profile.
Spec Name: Remove MicroProfile from the name, so keep it simple as Jakarta Config, Jakarta Health, etc
Jakarta namespace: Once and for all, rename to jakarta.* instead of org.microprofile.*, javax -> jakarta accepted, so this can possible as well with tools.
Release cadence: Micro(or core/web) profile can have 6 months(indicative) multiple release cadence between 2 year Jakarta releases. If unification targeted for Jakarta EE 12, next micro profile(optionally can have core/web profile increment as well)) release can be 12.1, 12.2, 12.3 etc, some specs can be remain untouched as well.

Reza Rahman

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Mar 19, 2025, 7:00:29 PMMar 19
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I certainly understand people wanting to hold onto javax. I did too. Honestly though, the impact was pretty manageable. Most customers we see don’t seem to struggle with it much. Given the far more limited use of MicroProfile, I genuinely believe the impact will be minimal or perhaps even negligible. The benefit is having a strong and uniform umbrella brand going forward while retaining some separation for MicroProfile via jakarta.microprofile.*.
 
From: Emily Jiang <emij...@googlemail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2025 6:51 PM
To: Microprofile WG discussions <micropr...@eclipse.org>
Cc: Reza Rahman <reza_...@mail.com>
Subject: Re: [microprofile-wg] Proposal: Host MicroProfile in Jakarta EE
 


On Wed, Mar 19, 2025 at 9:19 PM Reza Rahman via microprofile-wg <micropr...@eclipse.org> wrote:

This is a great direction and it is an easy +1 from Microsoft.

In terms of naming, things like Jakarta Health is a lot less of a mouthful than Jakarta MicroProfile Health. We do believe maintaining the MicroProfile brand and differentiation is important and valuable. For example, the resulting new Jakarta Profile could be called "Micro Profile". Similarly, associated sensible package names that would be clear to the community and customers could be: jakarta.microprofile.*. Unfortunately things like org.microprofile.* inside Jakarta EE may prove to be too confusing as it implies a separate domain.

Using any other namespace instead of org.eclipse.microprofile.* would cause unnecessary migration effort. People might still remember how hard the Eclipse Foundation tried to keep the javax namespace to avoid the migration effort. Right now, we have the pleasure to keep the microprofile namespace. Why should we throw away the luxury and force the MicroProfile customers to go through migration? As for the spec name, it is less important as it has not much application impact.
Thanks
Emily


From a Microsoft standpoint, we will do whatever we sensibly can to ensure this is not seen as a zero sum outcome dynamic for anyone and only a net gain for all.

On 3/19/2025 4:37 PM, John Clingan via microprofile-wg wrote:
At yesterday's MicroProfile Steering Committee call, John and Emily presented "Proposal: Host MicroProfile in Jakarta EE". Before replying to this post, please review the meeting minutes to see what has been discussed. Please use this thread to continue the discussion. The proposal is at a high level, and some details would need to be worked out if this proposal moves forward.

However, for the proposal to move forward, we would need to have a vote.  We are not there yet because the details matter.

Let's discuss the details in this thread, which is dual-posted to the Google Group and the MicroProfile Working Group email alias.

For those that attended the meeting, please review the minutes for accuracy.

Thanks! 
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Thanks
Emily

Emily Jiang

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Mar 19, 2025, 7:11:28 PMMar 19
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On Wed, Mar 19, 2025 at 11:00 PM Reza Rahman <m.reza...@gmail.com> wrote:
I certainly understand people wanting to hold onto javax. I did too. Honestly though, the impact was pretty manageable. Most customers we see don’t seem to struggle with it much. Given the far more limited use of MicroProfile, I genuinely believe the impact will be minimal or perhaps even negligible. The benefit is having a strong and uniform umbrella brand going forward while retaining some separation for MicroProfile via jakarta.microprofile.*.
 
Since we don't need to change namespace, why should we cause headaches to the MicroProfile customers?
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Reza Rahman

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Mar 19, 2025, 7:15:31 PMMar 19
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Ultimately branding is everything to be honest in terms of technology success in the market. I don’t think there is a good enough reason to dilute brands more than is really necessary.

From: 'Emily Jiang' via MicroProfile <microp...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2025 7:11 PM
To: microp...@googlegroups.com <microp...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [microprofile] Re: [microprofile-wg] Proposal: Host MicroProfile in Jakarta EE
 

Werner Keil

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Mar 20, 2025, 9:06:28 AMMar 20
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+1  unifying Microprofile and Jakarta EE.

About the new profile, I am also sympathetic towards a "Micro" Profile, but it may lead to confustion with the "Core" profile.
Besides, there are many specs in MP, not all could make sense as a mandatory requirement, so some "Mix & Match", quite like Spring might be a better option. 
In which case the "Micro Profile" could end up being a "Custom" layer on top of practically every Jakarta EE profile instead of a static profile with some mandatory specs.

Werner

Reza Rahman

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Mar 20, 2025, 9:19:15 AMMar 20
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To be honest in my view the Core Profile was created explicitly to try to align with MicroProfile. It could just be deprecated going forward as redundant.

From: microp...@googlegroups.com <microp...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Werner Keil <werne...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2025 9:06 AM
To: MicroProfile <microp...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [microprofile] Re: Proposal: Host MicroProfile in Jakarta EE
 
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Buhake Sindi

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Mar 20, 2025, 10:45:50 AMMar 20
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A suggestion,

We could think of Microprofile the same way as Spring has with Spring Cloud, i.e, provide libraries that might make it better for Jakarta EE developers to use when building cloud-native apps.




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Arjan Tijms

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Mar 20, 2025, 12:33:29 PMMar 20
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Hi everyone,

I'm a big +1 on unifying MicroProfile (MP) and Jakarta EE (EE). OmniFish has long advocated for this, and it seems like the best solution for everyone involved.

The most sensible way forward seems to be a Micro Profile alongside the Core and Web Profiles. I agree that the Core Profile, in reality, was never so much a "true" Core Profile, but more like a "MicroProfile alignment Profile."

Although there may be some theoretical confusion with Core and Micro, I think "Micro Profile" makes it clear enough that it's "micro" as in microservices, and not "micro" as in microkernel.

Thanks,
Arjan


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Arjan Tijms

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Mar 20, 2025, 12:39:55 PMMar 20
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Hi,

On Thu, 20 Mar 2025 at 00:11, 'Emily Jiang' via MicroProfile <microp...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Since we don't need to change namespace, why should we cause headaches to the MicroProfile customers?

The namespace might be a smaller concern compared to the bigger concerns of having one working group, though it's still important to think about.

IMHO, we should balance the potential pain of existing MicroProfile customers to migrate with the future pain of new customers starting to use Jakarta EE and having to learn about different namespaces.

Which group do we value more? Which pain is more problematic?

I agree there are no easy answers there, but it's good to take those questions into consideration.

Kind regards,
Arjan Tijms

 

Scott Stark

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Mar 20, 2025, 2:10:49 PMMar 20
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The Core Profile will not be redundant as it is the base profile in
terms of APIs for the Web Profile. Unless the Web Profile decides to
adopt all of the Micro Profile APIs, there is a need for separate
microservice oriented profile.
> To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/microprofile/SJ2PR20MB6215A39B278F049C76CD3938A8D82%40SJ2PR20MB6215.namprd20.prod.outlook.com.

Scott Stark

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Mar 20, 2025, 2:12:55 PMMar 20
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The javax-> jakarta was a forced move with no technical reason. It was
a huge waste of time and a pain point for customers and the entire
ecosystem. I don't want to see another forced move of namespaces.
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Reza Rahman

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Mar 20, 2025, 2:14:49 PMMar 20
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Does Web Profile really need to depend on Core Profile (in fact, does it
even do so today)? Or are all the current Jakarta EE profiles actually
just disjoint sets or can be made to be so easily?

Ed Burns

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Mar 21, 2025, 1:40:44 AMMar 21
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Since we are sharing views here, mine is that we not introduce a "Micro" profile, and just put Config in the Core profile.

Ed

Ed Burns

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Mar 21, 2025, 1:47:46 AMMar 21
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From my experience as release co-coordinator for EE 11 and 12, I am inclined to take a conservative approach. My main objective on this matter is to have Config in EE 12. Experience tells me that broadening the scope as has been discussed elsewhere on this thread (introducing a whole new profile, for example) decreases the odds of success.

Ed

From: microp...@googlegroups.com <microp...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Scott Stark <star...@gmail.com>
Date: Thursday, March 20, 2025 at 19:10
To: microp...@googlegroups.com <microp...@googlegroups.com>

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Ed Burns

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Mar 21, 2025, 1:50:15 AMMar 21
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From my experience as release co-coordinator for EE 11, I found it useful to be able to release Core profile separately from Web and Platform as a means to demonstrate progress to the community. So, from the perspective of release process, there does appear to be a dependency.

Ed

From: microp...@googlegroups.com <microp...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Reza Rahman <m.reza...@gmail.com>
Date: Thursday, March 20, 2025 at 19:14
To: microp...@googlegroups.com <microp...@googlegroups.com>

>>
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Emily Jiang

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Mar 21, 2025, 4:50:45 AMMar 21
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Ed,
The new MicroProfile or Micro Profile is to release the current MicroProfile specs as the specs might not be included in Web Profile or Platform.
Experience tells me that broadening the scope as has been discussed elsewhere on this thread (introducing a whole new profile, for example) decreases the odds of success.
I don't understand why having multiple profiles has anything to do with success. On the contrary, introducing a new profile has no impact on the other profiles, which is a way to keep the current release pattern.

From my experience as release co-coordinator for EE 11, I found it useful to be able to release Core profile separately from Web and Platform as a means to demonstrate progress to the community. So, from the perspective of release process, there does appear to be a dependency.

What dependency do you mean? Web Profile has the dependency on Core Profile. There has no extra dependencies introduced.
Thanks,
Emily

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Ed Burns

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Mar 21, 2025, 5:19:56 AMMar 21
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I meant that having Core, Web, and Platform decoupled from a releasability perspective is an asset.

Ed

From: 'Emily Jiang' via MicroProfile <microp...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, March 21, 2025 9:50:30 AM
To: microp...@googlegroups.com <microp...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: [microprofile] Re: Proposal: Host MicroProfile in Jakarta EE
 

Reza Rahman

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Mar 21, 2025, 9:24:41 AMMar 21
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Can someone kindly point out where the Web Profile references the Core Profile? I can’t seem to be able to find such a reference. I am aware the Core Profile happens to be a strict subset of the Web Profile, but that doesn’t actually constitute a dependency. Let’s remember, the Web Profile was created long before the Core Profile even existed. Similarly, if a new Micro Profile is introduced, it can actually be independent of the other profiles.

From: 'Ed Burns' via MicroProfile <microp...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, March 21, 2025 5:19 AM

John Clingan

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Mar 24, 2025, 6:44:19 PMMar 24
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Reza, that's a good point.  The Web Profile doesn't reference a Core Profile dependency, only individual "component" specifications.  The Core Profile was created to address MicroProfile dependencies. Under Jakarta EE, should Web Profile depend on Core Profile? What is the role of Core Profile if MicroProfile becomes a Profile in Jakarta EE?

Ed mentioned that releasing Core Profile shows progress. However, MicroProfile would prove that out too. A spec can be referenced by multiple Profiles. They are already included in the platform spec and the Web Profile and Core specs.

BTW, 

Reza Rahman

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Mar 24, 2025, 6:56:30 PMMar 24
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Is “showing progress” really sufficient enough reason to have yet another profile to maintain pretty much in the same domain space as arguably a more useful “Micro Profile”? I don’t think it’s an accident MicroProfile today has more adopters than Core Profile alone.

From: microp...@googlegroups.com <microp...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of John Clingan <jtcl...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, March 24, 2025 6:44 PM
To: MicroProfile <microp...@googlegroups.com>

Alasdair Nottingham

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Mar 24, 2025, 8:27:35 PMMar 24
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I think the discussion on whether Web Profile depends on Core Profile is a bit of a distraction, especially since everything in Core Profile is also in Web Profile. I do agree that it is a fair question to ask if we need both Core Profile and MicroProfile. If a decision is made to only take one forward then I would be in favour of taking MicroProfile forward over Core Profile. That said I think that is a discussion better to happen post any move so it happens in one place rather than in two.

Alasdair

Reza Rahman

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Apr 1, 2025, 5:11:17 PMApr 1
to microp...@googlegroups.com, Edward Burns

This is a follow-up to today's MicroProfile Community Call. In addition to the important points stated in the email I am responding to, Microsoft would like to add the following discussion points.

* As part of the process of moving MicroProfile to Jakarta EE, we would be very supportive of concrete recommendations for improving the vendor neutrality and openness of the Jakarta EE Working Group. For example, it is sensible to tentatively open the Jakarta EE Steering, Marketing, and Specification Committees to all observers as long as it does not prove to be too disruptive for decision makers with binding votes. Similarly, we would welcome a proposal to add one more voting Participant Member seat to the Steering Committee. Today eligible JUGs may join as Participant Members for free: https://www.eclipse.org/org/workinggroups/jakarta_ee_charter.php. Indeed, LJC is actually the elected Participant Member in the Steering Committee today: https://jakarta.ee/committees/steering/.

* It is important to properly evaluate if a small number of MicroProfile specifications should actually be incorporated as sub-specs of existing Jakarta EE specifications as opposed to net new specifications under Jakarta EE outright. For example, it may actually make the best sense to incorporate Rest Client into Jakarta REST and JWT Authentication into Jakarta Security. There is certainly some precedent for this. JPA was a sub-spec of EJB for a time. Similarly, Interceptors was essentially a sub-spec of CDI.  The incorporated APIs into a sub-spec could still retain the jakarta.microprofile.* namespace to maintain some reasonable level of branding continuity.

We understand a resolution will be tabled by IBM/Red Hat for vote by the MicroProfile Steering Committee as early as next week. We hope the resolution will take into account the input from Microsoft so far and we will very much look forward to strongly supporting it.

Michael Redlich

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Apr 1, 2025, 8:38:22 PMApr 1
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Folks:

My apologies for having taken so long to chime in on this matter, but this was a full month of Devnexus and JavaOne!

I first learned about this proposal from Tanja Obradovic at JavaOne two weeks ago.  My immediate reaction was a solid -1, but Tanja and I had a productive discussion about this. After having warmed up to the idea after our discussion, I read David’s email from March 24 in its entirety.

From David's email, I realized how much it would cost for JUGs to have voting privileges in the Jakarta EE Working Group. As I ultimately learned, the cost would be $25,000 for organizations with revenue less than $10,000,000. I don’t think there is any JUG that would be able to afford paying this every year.

The discussions at the last two MicroProfile Working Group meetings (March 25 and April 1) led to an awareness of challenges that would need to be resolved for this effort to be successful. It may sound easy on the surface, but apparently, it will be everything but easy.

While I understand the efficiencies from this merger that could ultimately be realized, here are some facts and some opinions based on my experience as having served in the MicroProfile Working Group since 2021:

[a] MicroProfile was created while Oracle dragged their feet with Java EE 8.
[b] The home-grown specifications (Config, Fault Tolerance, Health, Metrics, etc.) above and beyond the original three JSRs, provided a path for more easily developing cloud-native applications. This was something that wasn’t possible in Java EE/Jakarta EE at the time.
[c] I more recently learned that there were those who considered MicroProfile as a harvesting ground for specifications in the then-new Jakarta EE ecosystem. I'm not saying this is good, bad or indifferent. I suppose it was just surprising to me.

While the Garden State JUG doesn’t have binding voting privileges at this time, we would vote -1 on this proposal. But since it would appear inevitable that this proposal will ultimately pass, I move to propose the following from the Jakarta EE Working Group to consider:

[a] a more reasonable fee structure as a “paving the on-ramp” for JUGs to join.
[b] expand the participant membership (via vote as explained by Reza earlier today) from 1 to 2 members. The Garden State JUG would be willing to serve in this role.

Regardless of the outcome, the Garden State JUG remains committed to advocating for the MicroProfile and Jakarta EE ecosystems.

All the best,

Mike.

John Clingan

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Apr 21, 2025, 12:07:33 PMApr 21
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From here on out, please cc the microprofile-wg email alias.

Thanks!

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