Weld Crack at Root trough weld metal

[shiva]

We are using API 5L X65 grade material for sour environment. With
reference to our WPS we used (Ador electrodes) e 8010 for root and
8018 for hot fill pass.
We took NDT and its okay. But after 1 month 4 weld joints crack. We
checked the macro hardness for existing and cracked joint . There was
a high hardness eg 351, 329 on root and in weld metal cap side 280
above. Which is very high.

Can you please tell me for this material what type of electrodes to be
used? And why this occoured ?? And what may be possible reason for
this occourance?

Regards,
Y.C.Shiva,
QA/QC Engineer,
+974 6166465
Doha Qatar.

[Antonio Ruscitto]

The WPS was qualificated? was it OK? What´s kind messure value was took (Brinnel, Vickers)?
I make a WPS with first pass with E7010 and the hot pass with E8018 (Up), but maybe it better make with 100°C of preheat, and the time between first and second pass it more shorter possible after clen the fisrt pass.

Antonio Ruscitto

>>> shiva <luvsh...@gmail.com> 21/07/2009 10:33:36 am >>>

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[Antonio Ruscitto]

Sorry IŽm forget to ask you whatŽs the thicknes of pipe?

Antonio Ruscitto

>>> "Antonio  Ruscitto" <ARUS...@metrogas.com.ar> 21/07/2009 11:37:31 am >>>

The WPS was qualificated? was it OK? WhatŽs kind messure value was took (Brinnel, Vickers)?

[Minal Patel (Sorge's Welding)]

E 8010/E8018 is too brittle joints after welding, those are good if you want to obtain hard/brittle  surface on weld. 7010/7018 will be good for those material

<BR

[rupesy]

If this was for sour gas, you should have a qualified procedure that
also includes a hardness survey. Was NACE Mr0175 or NACE MR0103
specified? Regardless, the weld and HAZ at the root of the joint is
too high. For NACE MR0175, Vickers hardness limit is 250 for HAZ and
weld (or 237 Brinell or 22 Rockwell C) in contact with sour service
environment and for MR0103/RP0472 Vickers limit for HAZ is 250 and
weld is 200 Brinell.

Antonio has a good suggestion for high preheat and using 7010 for
root. Cap hardness limit is higher since it is not directly incontact
with sour environment so 8018 would most likely be acceptable. I don't
have experience with the API 5L X65 so I don't know what an as-welded
HAZ hardness survey looks like without a temperbead or some other
hardness reducing technique.

What Dia and thickness pipe? Some customers require all pipe in sour
service to be post weld heat treated.

Hope this helps.

[Yadav Shiva]

Yes the PQR & WPS Was Qualified. But  while doing PQR the hardness value in weld metal was 234HV  heighest, which was near to the accepted Maximum value of 248 HV.  thickness is 5.6mm and diameter 3"

[Luis Albanes]

I had about the same case in my actual project, and after many tests we found that the grinding after first pass with 6010 was too deep, leaving the weld very thin, make sure to check this   Luis Albanés --- El mar 21-jul-09, Antonio Ruscitto <ARUS...@metrogas.com.ar> escribió:

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[Ali Varmazyar]

Surry, I forget to talk about your service. if your service is sour then you
must consider Nace MR0175/ISO15156-2 requirements too.

Best Regards

A. Varmazyar

MSA -Welding Engineering Department
Msa,Arak,Markazi,IRAN - P.O. 148
Tel.: +988612172725~6
Fax: +988612172702

-----Original Message-----
From: material...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:material...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of shiva
Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 6:04 PM
To: Materials & Welding

[Ali Varmazyar]

E80XX are high level fillers for your material. You can used E70XX fillers.

Best Regards

A. Varmazyar

MSA -Welding Engineering Department
Msa,Arak,Markazi,IRAN - P.O. 148
Tel.: +988612172725~6
Fax: +988612172702

-----Original Message-----
From: material...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:material...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of shiva
Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 6:04 PM
To: Materials & Welding
Subject: [MW:2742] Weld Crack at Root trough weld metal

[Yadav Shiva]

Hi Varmazyar,
Yes we can use 6010 or 7018 at root.But i our
case , why it happened , why crack came ??
Regards,
YC.Shiva,
QA/QC Engg,
Doha Qatar,
+974 6166465.

[Sujeet Sangle]

Dear Shiva,

 

As said by Mr Ali , you must do all the NACE test HIC , SSCC .

 

This 8010 Electrodes are with high level of Hydrogen more then 15 ml / 100 gm .

 

The weld has cracked due to delay cracking .

 

Hope you have done the batch test of the consumable you are using for NACE tests ,

 

AS suggested you can use 7010 Electrode's after batch testing .

 

The other optin is also to go for 7016 down hand electrode .

 

Regards,

 

Sujeet Sangle

 

0091 9987781204

 

On 7/22/09, Ali Varmazyar <av-...@msa.ir> wrote:

[Yadav Shiva]

We had done all the test HIC, SSCC. and the electrode is < 5ml/100gm
deposited weld. We can use 6010 or 7010 electrode for root and 8018
for fill and cap . But Is there any solution where it went wrong??

[Yadav Shiva]

Dear all,
Can you please find any solution for Crack. all test
are okay except Hardness . Can you explain with technical reasons why
it has happened . ??

Dia of pipe 3"
thickness 5.6mm,
Sour service,
max hardnes required 248 HV,
tested value of crack weld - 351,329 root and in caping 286 HV.
Electrode root 8010,
fill and hot 8018.

[hamed]

Hi
I think we can not tell what is the exact reason for this crack .Because
many cases interfere in this matter. Such as :
1- Because the wrong process for backing of electrode it's possible to delay
cracking.
2- After root pass welder didn't do the second pass in the correct time &
the shrinkage causes the root crack.
3- Wrong grinding after root pass on the connection point could make the
small crack & because the shrinkage stress that crack propagated.
4- If the heat input became more than your WPS & cooling rate also high then
transformation of martensite phase is possible . This matter also could
cause the brittleness.
So my suggestion is you control these all items then sure you have not any
crack.

REGARDS

[Yadav Shiva]

Hi hamed,
In workmanship there is no problem , but i have a dought
on using 8010 electrode for root and No problem of using 8018 for
fill and hot pass. Since the material we are using is API 5L X65
Grade. Which is HSLA STEELS

Regards,
YC.Shiva,
QA/QC .

[PB HEGDE]

From the data you have given it seems that Preheating is reqd to be carried. For all such high strength weld, ii) some time it is better to carry post heating also. This way you can maintain lower hardness.

Regards

Hegde

-----Original Message-----
From: material...@googlegroups.com [mailto:material...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Yadav Shiva
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 10:20 AM
To: material...@googlegroups.com

[Ali Varmazyar]

Are you ensure that your electrodes are dry completely? any moisture makes
some cracks in your condition, pay attention to Hydrogen Induce Cracking.

[Geoff Rogers]

I have two recommendations when welding pipe for sour service:

1. Always use preheat. Preheat should be 100C minimum.

2. Use an E6010 electrode for root pass for all pipe grades X70 and less. The electrode is very ductile, soft (lower hardness) with less alloying, and easier to use. It is undermatched but that is really not an issue since so little of the root remains after grinding. It is also recommended to use an E8010 electrode for the hot pass (2nd pass).

Another option for the root pass is to use an E7016 electrode. There are a few good brands for pipe welding. I have a lot of experience with Kobelco and ESAB Europe.

An additional recommendation regarding pipe is it show be supplied with a max hardness of 200 HV10. You could accept 220 but that usually will require higher preheat. You can expect up to a 50 point increase in hardness for the HAZ depending on preheat and heat input control.

Geoff Rogers
Houston, TX

[Luis Albanes]

Hi, 7018 is not for first pass, 6010 does   Luis Albanés --- El mar 21-jul-09, Yadav Shiva <luvsh...@gmail.com> escribió:

De:: Yadav Shiva <luvsh...@gmail.com> Asunto: [MW:2760] Re: 2742] Weld Crack at Root trough weld metal A: material...@googlegroups.com Fecha: martes 21 de julio de 2009, 23:25

Hi Varmazyar,                      Yes we can use 6010 or 7018 at root.But i our case , why it happened , why crack came ?? Regards, YC.Shiva, QA/QC Engg, Doha Qatar, +974 6166465.

[franci...@indiatimes.com]

Pl check the preheat used and use 70 series electrodes for root and rest 80 series which will result in low hardness which will meet the nace requirements also. Hardness for root 248 HV and 275 HV for cap

Best Regards,
Francis Lobo

--
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[rajagopal kannan]

Hi,

Have you done PWHT. These materials normally releases the stress in HAZ after subjecting it to atleast 3 1/2 hours soaking.

Thanks and Regards,

K.RAJAGOPAL

[ARI]

Hi, E8010 has high dilution,, if you use E6010 electrodes, the dilution level can be kept minimum and ultimately you could acheive the required tensile/hardness values.

 

Regards,

 

Ari

 

[franci...@indiatimes.com]

Dear Friends,

For thickness 5.6 mm x 3 nb pipe it is not required to be PWHT ,
Weldability of X65 Material is well established , We use X65 materials even upto 50mm thick in subsea pipelines for sour service requirmetns, for pipe of your size I suggest  use GTAW using 70 Series consumable which meets all requirements X65 Material properties

Best Regards,
Francis lobo

[Yadav Shiva]

No PWHT Required for this material , thickness - 5.64mm , API 5L X65 Material.

On 7/23/09, rajagopal kannan <rajagopa...@gmail.com> wrote:

[hamed]

Dear Shiva
Although for this type of material E7010 for root & 7018 for hot & filling
pass are more common than the fillers that you applied in this joint but I
don't believe this matter was the reason of crack. I think some technical
matter caused this problem.

KIND REGARDS

[Ali Asghari]

hi Ari

why the dilution of E8010 is high?

regard advance

---

From: ARI <ari...@gmail.com>
To: material...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 6:28:29 PM
Subject: [MW:2788] Re: Weld Crack at Root trough weld metal

[kayvan alyari]

Dear Friend

 

If the welding rate is not important for you, It is recommended to use E7016-G electrode for root pass to avoid cold cracking. As you know, E8010 is an cellulosic electrode and shall not be used in sour services. It has the high risk of hydrogen cracking!

 

Yours truly

Keyvan

 

[Ayhan GEDUK]

Dear Sihva, We used pipeline in Oman the same material with Bohler Foxcel E-6010 (only root), hot pas fill and cap Bohler Foxcel85 E8010-P1 also the same electodes Baku-tibilisi- ceyhan pipeline. there was no any problem occured. you needed to be carry on preheat temperature min.50celcius degree and the time between root pass and hot pass.  Note that (when the root welding is started pipe cannot move any direction after the hot pass complete).  Best Regards, Ayhan GEDUK Turkey Mobile:+90 5358811933 --- On Mon, 17/8/09, kayvan alyari <k.al...@gmail.com> wrote:

---

New Email names for you!
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Hurry before someone else does!

[Chandra, Vasanthan (Lagos)]

 

Higher hardness is due to the fact that hard microstructure might have formed. This is due to insufficient Pre-Heat or low Interpass temperature. Avoid faster cooling for the high yield strength steels. (Check for CE. If higher, increase the Pre-Heat). Also check for heat input. If more heat input, crack may occur.

 

Regards,

Vasanth

---

From: material...@googlegroups.com [mailto:material...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of kayvan alyari
Sent: 17 August 2009 12:01
To: material...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [MW:2950] Re: Weld Crack at Root trough weld metal

 

Dear Friend

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[Nick Davies]

I fully agree, only 3.2mm dia low hydrogen electrodes should be used for the root pass, minimum pre heat should be 100 dec C max interpass temp should be 150 deg C maintained throughout the welding cycle, cellulosic electrodes should never be used on sour service,

 

 

Nick Davies

Quality Engineer

Damaq Ltd

[G.Alagarasan]

Hi

API 5L X 65 ..its high yield strength material , it require very ductile materila for root & followed by high strength materila .

you shall use either E 6010 and E 7010 for root pass followed by E 8010 P1...

Normally , Hobart or Lincoln ,Bohler brand electrodes are recommended for Pipelines as it has adequate ductility and toughness.

I have developed many procedures using E 6010 & E 7010-P1 and some case with root E 8010-P1 without any problem..

We tested as per API 1104,DNV including corrosion test like HIC ,SSIC.,CTOD ...All the results are acceptable.

I don't want to guess for reason for failure..

Cheers,
Alagu

On Mon, 17 Aug 2009 16:46:55 +0530 wrote

>Dear Friend

If the welding rate is not important for you, It is recommended to use E7016-G electrode for root pass to avoid cold cracking. As you know, E8010 is an cellulosic electrode and shall not be used in sour services. It has the high risk of hydrogen cracking!


Yours truly
Keyvan

On 7/21/09, shiva wrote:
We are using API 5L X65 grade material for sour environment. Withreference to our WPS we used (Ador electrodes) e 8010 for root and
8018 for hot fill pass.We took NDT and its okay. But after 1 month 4 weld joints crack. Wechecked the macro hardness for existing and cracked joint . There wasa high hardness eg 351, 329 on root and in weld metal cap side 280
above. Which is very high.Can you please tell me for this material what type of electrodes to beused? And why this occoured ?? And what may be possible reason forthis occourance?Regards,Y.C.Shiva,
QA/QC Engineer,+974 6166465Doha Qatar.

[hakan sitem]

Dear, i can suggest you to use a Special Basic electrode which can be use in One-Sided pipe welding on root passes. ESAB OK53.70 allows you to weld your sour gas line root passes, which has a X65 grade strength with LMA (Low moisture absorbtion). Here is attached DataSheet for this consumable. BR Hakan Welding Engineer   --- On Tue, 18/8/09, G.Alagarasan <galag...@rediffmail.com> wrote:

Get your preferred Email name! Now you can @ymail.com and @rocketmail.com.

[Patel Vivek]

Dear geoff,

we are here welding 25 mm plate with 5 Kj/mm heat Input.....

Pipe Grade :- API 5L X65....do you thnik it is easy to achieve 200 HV 10 in weld ID & Midthinkness of weld...

Regards,

Vivek