Welding of Dissimilar Thickness & Dissimilar P number

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Vijay Katkar

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Sep 20, 2016, 1:42:09 AM9/20/16
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Dear Expert,

Need your guidance,

I have PQR with P1 to P43 with 10 mm thickness,

Can i use this PQR for Joint with 10 mm (P1) & 45 mm (P43) under following clause?

Clause no QW 202.4.



Thank you 

Vijay Katkar   

George Dilintas

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Sep 20, 2016, 6:18:43 AM9/20/16
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Yes you do, provided all other parameters are within approval range

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Pravin Nimbalkar

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Sep 21, 2016, 9:44:54 AM9/21/16
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Yes you can!
"Quite interesting question"

Mhaskar Aly

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Sep 27, 2016, 2:13:16 AM9/27/16
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I think NO... as the joint is dissimilar thk but not similar P numbers.....in our case P numbers are P1 & P43
Inline image 1

please advise...

Aly


On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 5:28 PM, Pravin Nimbalkar <pravin.n...@gmail.com> wrote:
Yes you can!
"Quite interesting question"
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George Dilintas

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Sep 27, 2016, 3:56:00 AM9/27/16
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It is possible for all P nos if the thickness of the thinner metal is within the range of QW-451. In case of Pno 1, if the coupon was thicker or equal of 38 mm, there is no limitation for the thickness of the thicker metal. Otherwise the thicker metal has to be within the limits of QW 451.
The no limitation on the thickness of the thicker metal in case the coupon was 6mm or greater, applies in the case of Ni, Ti, and Zr alloys

2016-09-20 8:17 GMT+03:00 Vijay Katkar <katkar....@gmail.com>:

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Vijay Katkar

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Sep 27, 2016, 3:56:00 AM9/27/16
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I feel that ,It is not specified as similar P no combination.
So we can use this


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Prasad

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May 27, 2020, 11:22:23 AM5/27/20
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Dear Expert need your opinion.

I have WPS/PQR of dissimilar metal GTAW (F11 to SS316L) with Inconel Filler for high temperature application. Inconel filler selected according to API 582 guidelines..but our end user is not accepting Inconel filler because it doesn't have Moly content which is present in base metal.

Any document or write to prove correctness of Inconel filler?

José Juan Jiménez Alejandro

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May 27, 2020, 11:29:33 PM5/27/20
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Libre de virus. www.avast.com

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Amitabh Bhattacharya

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May 27, 2020, 11:29:35 PM5/27/20
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 You can discuss with your client of weld metal chemistry after depositing to required GTAW thickness to verify 'Mo" content. 
 
 But the best way to go with API RP-582 recemendation and convince your client that weld joint  need high temperature oxidation resistant weld metal rather pitting resistant which alloying with 'Mo" would provide . Dissimilar weld joints are mostly accepted based on  application requirement.But again client's discretion. ER309LMo should have been better choice even Alloy 625 to begin with.
Regards
Amitabh

wilfred kojo

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May 31, 2020, 10:32:14 PM5/31/20
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For high temperature service, 309L is not the best filler. The different in CTE (coefficient of thermal expansion) between low alloy steel and stainless steel is high. During thermal cycling, the difference in CTE create shear stress at the weld interface between stainless steel weld metal and the low alloy steel. Again, during welding there is diffusion of carbon from the heat affected zone of low alloy steel to the stainless steel weld metal due to high affinity of carbon to chromium (carbon diffuses from region of low chromium content to region of high chromium content) creating region in the HAZ with low carbon and low creep strength. The shear stress and the region of low creep strength lead to early failure in service. This is the reason while nickel base filler metal often preferred and recommended.

Kannayeram Gnanapandithan

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Jun 1, 2020, 7:32:08 AM6/1/20
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In addition, sigma phase will form. This is not suitable for temperature above 370°C

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wilfred kojo

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Jun 1, 2020, 10:52:10 AM6/1/20
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Again, welding with ENiCrMo-3 or ERNiCrMo-3 is also not a good choice due high tendency of forming brittle phases – see attached.

If the client insist using filler metal with molybdenum, then your best choice is INCO A (ENiCrFe -2 ) with Mo content of between 0.5 – 2.5 – see attached also.  

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

Filler for P22 Steels to Stainless steel.pdf

Raghuram Bathula

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Jun 1, 2020, 11:32:47 AM6/1/20
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can you please give this book reference
Thanks

Kannayeram Gnanapandithan

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Jun 1, 2020, 11:00:49 PM6/1/20
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Best is NiCr3 or NiCrFe3 or NiCrFe2

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wilfred kojo

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Jun 1, 2020, 11:00:49 PM6/1/20
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Technical Report by EPRI titled - 
Best Practice Guideline for the Manufacture and Construction of Grade 91 steel to Austenitic stainless steel Dissimilar weld metal. 

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Materials & Welding

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Jun 1, 2020, 11:15:04 PM6/1/20
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On Mon, 1 Jun 2020 at 22:24, Zeghanu Gigi <xxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:


The answer to your problem is delicate/complex.
Just  I would like to remind you that the main problem ,in my opinion ,is to solve Type IV Cracking for DMW.
There  are lot of documents related this subject on internet ,especially from Bhadeshia Professor. My advice is to try to study and understand the phenomena ,then you can try to get decision regarding filler metal suitable for this kind of welded joints.Even you have no time try to organize your program accordingly.
Keep in mind that the codes and standards are guide,never replace engineering experience.

After study possible to decide to don't weld direct ferritic creep resistant steel (F11) to Austenitic Stainless Steel 316L ,especially at elevated temperature.Buttering solution.....My opinion is that no Mo is the key of this problem.

I will send you tomorrow some documents related these very old but still actual problem.

Regards

Gigi

On Tuesday, September 20, 2016 at 11:12:09 AM UTC+5:30, vijay Katkar wrote:

Kannayeram Gnanapandithan

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Jun 2, 2020, 2:24:45 AM6/2/20
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As Mr. Wilfred said, when weld metal of NiCrMo3 is exposed to high temperature with longer period, second hardening is taking place. Ref EPRI on Cr-Mo steel

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Zeghanu Gigi

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Jun 2, 2020, 4:27:09 AM6/2/20
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Gents,

Below other experts opinion.....

The operating experience of direct (without buttering layer) ferritic/austenitic junction revealed poor performance in power plants. The use of direct joint between ferritic steel and austenitic stainless steel has led to several problems in service like thermally induced cyclic stresses resulting from the difference in coefficients of thermal expansion between the ferritic and austenitic steels (difference in coefficient of thermal expansion of these two materials is ~30–40%)  Earlier, ER 308L and 309L were used to join these materials but resulted in premature failures due to carbon migration (formation of the soft zone between Cr-Mo and ER308/309) and sigma phase formation. Nickel based consumables (Inconel 82 and Inconel 182) possible to offers the best compromise between these materials because it significantly retards carbon migration and gives improved thermal stability.



prasad loke

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Jun 12, 2020, 3:41:36 AM6/12/20
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Thanks a lot dear all for valuable guidance on this topic...still i feel my basic query is unanswered .. WPS/PQR of dissimilar metal GTAW without buttering (F11 to SS316L) with Inconel Filler(ER NiCr-3 , SFA5.14) is correct or wrong ? if it is wrong just because of absence of  Moly content in filler , can i make new wps with another filler  (e.g.with Moly  content ERNiCrMo-3  from same SFA 5.14  with support of existing PQR ? OR I need to go ahead with new  WPS/PQR  with new filler ?

Thanks
Prasad
 

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Kannayeram Gnanapandithan

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Jun 12, 2020, 6:20:46 AM6/12/20
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U can do for material thickness less than 13mm directly by Inconel 82/182. 

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james gerald

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Jun 12, 2020, 6:20:46 AM6/12/20
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MY view as below.

1.Welding using GTAW process (F11 to SS 316L) with Inconel Filler (ER NiCr3, SFA 5.14)Alloy 600 is Acceptable.
2. Buttering is normally required when Buttered member F11 is subjected to PWHT and the remaining Joint is not.
3. 2-3% Mo in 316L gives better PREN but remember F11 side also subjected to same Fluid and no wrong in using ERNiCr3 and is also the recommended Filler wire for high temperatures

Thanks & Regards

J.Gerald Jayakumar




wilfred kojo

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Jun 12, 2020, 12:03:27 PM6/12/20
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Dear Gents,
1. PQR using NiCr-3 is acceptable and preferred for high temperature service.
2. NiCrMo-3 filler has high tendency to form brittle phase at high temperature but if client insist you can use NiCrMo-3 filler metal without qualifying new PQR sine NiCr-3 and NiCrMo-3 belong to the same F-No - 43 (ASME IX table QW-432) documenting all your conversation with client for future reference with respect to their preference for NiCrMo-3. 

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