CS with Duplex SS (S31803) clad vessel PWHT?

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Materials & Welding

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Jul 11, 2020, 6:42:52 AM7/11/20
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ASME Sec VIII div1
SA516 Gr 70 - 51mm thickness+S31803 clad

any experience on duplex clad vessel PWHT?

pgos...@rogers.com

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Jul 11, 2020, 11:23:04 AM7/11/20
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Hi,

Discussions on the identical issues had taken place in this forum few years ago. I’m’ reposting the discussion and the provided answers. It would be helpful to get the drawing or the tech specs so as to provide meaningful answers.

Thanks.

 

P.Goswami.P.Eng, IWE.

Independent  & Consulting Welding & Metallurgical Specialist

Aramco Approved Designated Project Welding Engineer(DPWR)

Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/pradip-goswami-2999855/

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[MW-10900-- Duplex Claded Eqipt PWHT.pdf

Materials & Welding

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Jul 11, 2020, 12:14:04 PM7/11/20
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its in design stage,  process data  states as solid S31803 -42mm thick(with an option to use CS+clad), however use of clad plate might be difficult due to PWHT, as the thickness of backer plate will be >50mm.

pgos...@rogers.com

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Jul 12, 2020, 12:03:25 AM7/12/20
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Hi ,

A switch to complete duplex stainless teel construction will offer at least
15-20% reduction in thickness and weight .Duplex may be slightly more
expensive that conventional 304/304L(see the data sheet as attached).The
same holds good when there’s comparison between duplex clad vs solid duplex
construction. However cost is not the only factor in choosing DSS as the
material f construction. It’s more of technical.

Duplex (31803) clad carbon steel of > 50mm wall thickness has to subjected
to PWHT , which is commonly stress relieving . A PWHT range of 600-620 Deg C
is highly embrittling range for 31803 DSS due formation of various
intermetallic phases. See the attachment for detailed illustrations. PWHT at
lower temperature range 400-500 Deg C also causes embrittlement. Thus a
choice of DSS31803 clad+ CS backing vessels would be highly problematic .
If DSS is the only material of construction , then advice would be to go
for full thickness DSS construction.

The question is what’s the process design and fluid involved ? Why Duplex
SS is chosen as the material of construction. If one is going for 31803
clad +CS Backing design then the purpose of DSS is for corrosion resistance
only. There’re many materials to choose from. If equivalent pitting &
crevice corrosion resistance as well as chloride stress corrosion
resistance is needed then a switch to 254 /654 SMO as the clad on Carbon
Steel would also be a good option.



If DSS clad is the only option then a simulation test at the mill is a
must, before the final decision. The critical parameters to be evaluated :
hardness, impact, % El, all required corrosion test results for the plates.

Thanks.



P.Goswami.P.Eng, IWE.

Email:pgos...@rogers.com,pradip....@gmail.com

Cell/Whasapp:1-905-9793232







From: Materials & Welding <material...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: July 11, 2020 12:14 PM
To: Materials & Welding <material...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [MW:31133] Re: 31131] CS with Duplex SS (S31803) clad vessel PWHT?



its in design stage, process data states as solid S31803 -42mm thick(with
an option to use CS+clad), however use of clad plate might be difficult due
to PWHT, as the thickness of backer plate will be >50mm.



On Saturday, 11 July 2020 at 20:53:04 UTC+5:30 pgos...@rogers.com
<mailto:pgos...@rogers.com> wrote:

Hi,

Discussions on the identical issues had taken place in this forum few years
ago. I’m’ reposting the discussion and the provided answers. It would be
helpful to get the drawing or the tech specs so as to provide meaningful
answers.

Thanks.



P.Goswami.P.Eng, IWE.

Independent & Consulting Welding & Metallurgical Specialist

Aramco Approved Designated Project Welding Engineer(DPWR)

Linkedin: <https://www.linkedin.com/in/pradip-goswami-2999855/>
https://www.linkedin.com/in/pradip-goswami-2999855/

Email:pgos...@rogers.com,pradip....@gmail.com

Cell/Whasapp:1-905-9793232 <tel:(905)%20979-3232>



From: Materials & Welding <material...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: July 11, 2020 6:43 AM
To: Materials & Welding <material...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [MW:31131] CS with Duplex SS (S31803) clad vessel PWHT?



ASME Sec VIII div1

SA516 Gr 70 - 51mm thickness+S31803 clad



any experience on duplex clad vessel PWHT?



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Pages from 4 A Primer for DUPLEX Corrosion Solutions presentation.pdf

manish kulkarni

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Jul 12, 2020, 10:54:06 AM7/12/20
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Instead of DSS.   Think of inconnel clad. 


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Zeghanu Gigi

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Jul 12, 2020, 10:54:29 AM7/12/20
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Hi,

Stress relief temperature at 650 ◦C induced sigma phase precipitation in between delta ferrite and austenite (δ/γ) grain boundaries, resulting in the loss of corrosion resistance in the weld metal.  Post Weld Heat Treatment (PWHT) to solution annealing temperature had shown no weight loss. The ferrite count determination in the region of weld metal cladding increased at hydrogen relief and decreased at stress relief temperatures due to slow cooling, which is more favorable to austenite formation. The amount of ferrite in the weld metals is significantly reduced with the increment of solution anneal temperature to 1050 ◦C because of sufficient time for the formation of austenite and giving optimum equilibrium fraction in the welds.

Thanks

Gigi


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Customer Care

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Jul 12, 2020, 10:54:38 AM7/12/20
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Hi,

You can realize the dissimilar welding (CS 516 Gr.70) + Cladding (S31803) with PWHT following these steps:

-As the base metal of CS have 51 mm of thickness, apply preheating about 175 °C and maintain it during the welding.   Use filler for CS type E/7018 (depending welding process).

 

-Buttering the CS with austenitic filler metal (e.g., E/309L) and remove clad S31803 with grinding, 2” side and side of the weld joint. Realize localized PWHT over the weld metal and HAZ only, about 625 °C during one and half hours.

             - Weld the S31803 clad using duplex filler like E/2209.

 

Ramon Briceno

Senior Metallurgical Engineer / Oil & Gas

 

 

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From: Materials & Welding
Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2020 6:42 AM
To: Materials & Welding
Subject: [MW:31131] CS with Duplex SS (S31803) clad vessel PWHT?

 

ASME Sec VIII div1

SA516 Gr 70 - 51mm thickness+S31803 clad

 

any experience on duplex clad vessel PWHT?

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Ramin Kondori

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Jul 14, 2020, 11:50:34 PM7/14/20
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PWHT of duplex clad vessel...?!!!


Ramin  Kondori
Sr. QA/QC & Welding Engineer
-----------------------------------------------------------
PG-Dip. in Welding Engineering (IWE  AT  0070)
BSc. in Civil Engineering (IUT)
BGAS Painting Inspector
ASNT Level I&II
                        
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Sourav Bohrays

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Jul 16, 2020, 11:39:35 PM7/16/20
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no problem boss go for it today i did the same no problm i did mpt from outside of vessel after pwht and lpt from inside at weld ,check fe number no problem

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/materials-welding/BL0PR03MB42430F71AF631FA12E6C9631AA630%40BL0PR03MB4243.namprd03.prod.outlook.com.

pgos...@rogers.com

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Jul 18, 2020, 12:01:04 AM7/18/20
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A few questions on this interesting  topic  as well as  on the suggestions imparted as below.

 

  • How  do you perform local PWHT on a fully fabricated pressure vessel? If that’s the case , every weld joint (L-Seam, C-Seam, Nozzle Welds ) has to be individually wrapped by heating coils. Is that possible  after fabrication of entire vessel?
  • Restoration of Duplex clad is usually done after barrier layer by 309L.  2209 electrode/filler  may be used  also right from the first layer for restoration of clad.  
  • PWHT of 51 mm thick Duplex clad vessel would encompass the following PWHT cycle easily:-
  1. Ambient to 300 Deg C-Unlimited heating, 300 Deg C /Hr. Hold at 300 Deg c for uniform equalization of  temperature
  2. From 300 Deg C to 600 Deg C – ROH 40-50 Deg C /Hr- would involve- easily 4 hrs of heating cycle
  3. Soak 2 600-620 Deg C- for 2 hrs easily

Hence depending on the size of the vessel, a heating cycle of 7-8 hrs easily would be required between 300- Deg C  to 600 Deg C. Same would be case for cooling . Hence a PWHT .stress relief temperature @ 600 Deg C  could be quite harmful. Typically 300-700 Deg C is the formation range of various intermetallic phases for Duplex S.S.

 

It would be nice to know the decision taken by the originator of this query , for education of all concerned.

 

Thanks.

P.Goswami.P.Eng, IWE.

Independent  & Consulting Welding & Metallurgical Specialist

Duplex-2205-PWHT Issues.pdf

pgos...@rogers.com

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Jul 18, 2020, 11:33:45 PM7/18/20
to Sourav Bohrays, material...@googlegroups.com

Hello Sourav,

 

I’m not sure what you’re trying to convey. However what you’re writing does not make any sense at all.

Pressure vessels are not cookie cutters, they’re serious and dangerous equipment.  You can’t just weld, put inside the furnace and attach a few thermocouples…….. and be done…

I’m attached to this forum for last 10 years and have initiated and contributed many in-depth  technical issues.

If you’re interested to know something, let me know. I’ll gladly  help you.

Thanks.

 

P.Goswami.P.Eng, IWE.

Independent  & Consulting Welding & Metallurgical Specialist

Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/pradip-goswami-2999855/

Email:pgos...@rogers.com,pradip....@gmail.com

Cell/Whasapp:1-905-9793232

 

From: Sourav Bohrays <sourav...@gmail.com>
Sent: July 18, 2020 7:53 AM
To: material...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [MW:31152] CS with Duplex SS (S31803) clad vessel PWHT?

 

i am not getting why you are sooo afraid of cladding with cs .you have to do nothing especial for this simply put your job in  close furnance and attached weld but remember if u are attaching thermocouple inside of vessel also than dont weld it at ss plate ,attach it at weld.i i did firing in furnace not inside the remember if its not clad than i have a option of inside firing of vessel

 

Sourav Bohrays

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Jul 19, 2020, 4:54:15 AM7/19/20
to material...@googlegroups.com
i am not getting why you are sooo afraid of cladding with cs .you have to do nothing especial for this simply put your job in  close furnance and attached weld but remember if u are attaching thermocouple inside of vessel also than dont weld it at ss plate ,attach it at weld.i i did firing in furnace not inside the remember if its not clad than i have a option of inside firing of vessel

On Sat, 18 Jul 2020, 8:01 am , <pgos...@rogers.com> wrote:
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/materials-welding/!%26!AAAAAAAAAAAuAAAAAAAAABVPzeizzeRJsiPziIE5jXQBAMO2jhD3dRHOtM0AqgC7tuYAAAAAAA4AABAAAACMA%2BVkArTCRJUPEAxMCRVJAQAAAAA%3D%40rogers.com.

Umar Rashid Makrani

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Jul 19, 2020, 5:12:53 AM7/19/20
to Materials & Welding
Respected Sir,
We value your various inputs on our queries and many of us are much thankful for this. No doubt your professionalism is useful for the welding community. Your supports to all of us on various cases was unprecedented. 
There may be time when we might not been convinced to your answer, we should rather repeat the queries or present the counter arguments in a better respectful way with a proper technical/scientific clarifications. The respect is due to all the community heroes like you.
Yes we agree that pressure vessels are not the cookies and deserve respect too, we don't want to repeat the Bhopal nor even a single unrecorded injury.
Thank you very much to all the experienced mentors of the group and we expect that we will be forgiven for any unprofessional comment we may make out of our ignorance.
Best regards,


On Sunday, July 19, 2020 at 6:33:45 AM UTC+3, pgos...@rogers.com wrote:

Hello Sourav,

 

I’m not sure what you’re trying to convey. However what you’re writing does not make any sense at all.

Pressure vessels are not cookie cutters, they’re serious and dangerous equipment.  You can’t just weld, put inside the furnace and attach a few thermocouples…….. and be done…

I’m attached to this forum for last 10 years and have initiated and contributed many in-depth  technical issues.

If you’re interested to know something, let me know. I’ll gladly  help you.

Thanks.

 

P.Goswami.P.Eng, IWE.

Independent  & Consulting Welding & Metallurgical Specialist

Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/pradip-goswami-2999855/

Cell/Whasapp:1-905-9793232

 

From: Sourav Bohrays <sourav...@gmail.com>
Sent: July 18, 2020 7:53 AM
To: material...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [MW:31152] CS with Duplex SS (S31803) clad vessel PWHT?

 

i am not getting why you are sooo afraid of cladding with cs .you have to do nothing especial for this simply put your job in  close furnance and attached weld but remember if u are attaching thermocouple inside of vessel also than dont weld it at ss plate ,attach it at weld.i i did firing in furnace not inside the remember if its not clad than i have a option of inside firing of vessel

 

On Sat, 18 Jul 2020, 8:01 am , <pgos...@rogers.com> wrote:

A few questions on this interesting  topic  as well as  on the suggestions imparted as below.

 

  • How  do you perform local PWHT on a fully fabricated pressure vessel? If that’s the case , every weld joint (L-Seam, C-Seam, Nozzle Welds ) has to be individually wrapped by heating coils. Is that possible  after fabrication of entire vessel?
  • Restoration of Duplex clad is usually done after barrier layer by 309L.  2209 electrode/filler  may be used  also right from the first layer for restoration of clad.  
  • PWHT of 51 mm thick Duplex clad vessel would encompass the following PWHT cycle easily:-
  1. Ambient to 300 Deg C-Unlimited heating, 300 Deg C /Hr. Hold at 300 Deg c for uniform equalization of  temperature
  2. From 300 Deg C to 600 Deg C – ROH 40-50 Deg C /Hr- would involve- easily 4 hrs of heating cycle
  3. Soak 2 600-620 Deg C- for 2 hrs easily

Hence depending on the size of the vessel, a heating cycle of 7-8 hrs easily would be required between 300- Deg C  to 600 Deg C. Same would be case for cooling . Hence a PWHT .stress relief temperature @ 600 Deg C  could be quite harmful. Typically 300-700 Deg C is the formation range of various intermetallic phases for Duplex S.S.

 

It would be nice to know the decision taken by the originator of this query , for education of all concerned.

 

Thanks.

P.Goswami.P.Eng, IWE.

Independent  & Consulting Welding & Metallurgical Specialist

Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/pradip-goswami-2999855/

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to material...@googlegroups.com.

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Ramin Kondori

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Jul 20, 2020, 10:59:30 AM7/20/20
to material...@googlegroups.com
Applying conventional PWHT on this case is a very dangerous thing to do.
This is a design issue. The designers must know these issues.

2205 (2209) Duplex stainless steel (overlay) will not tolerate any prolonged exposure above 600F without forming detrimental secondary phases. It is not a risk, it is guaranteed to destroy the corrosion resistance (and impact toughness) of DSS. Yet, you can prepare a test coupon and simulate everything and send it for laboratory tests to see for yourself. 

You have to forget about PWHT or go for a sold DSS vessel.
There are not many other alternatives which can completely fix this issue for you.   

Regards
Ramin  Kondori
Sr. QA/QC & Welding Engineer
-----------------------------------------------------------
PG-Dip. in Welding Engineering (IWE  AT  0070)
BSc. in Civil Engineering (IUT)
BGAS Painting Inspector
ASNT Level I&II
                        
IIW-Logo-Colour-small

On Sun, Jul 19, 2020 at 1:42 PM Umar Rashid Makrani <firoz....@gmail.com> wrote:
Respected Sir,
We value your various inputs on our queries and many of us are much thankful for this. No doubt your professionalism is useful for the welding community. Your supports to all of us on various cases was unprecedented. 
There may be time when we might not been convinced to your answer, we should rather repeat the queries or present the counter arguments in a better respectful way with a proper technical/scientific clarifications. The respect is due to all the community heroes like you.
Yes we agree that pressure vessels are not the cookies and deserve respect too, we don't want to repeat the Bhopal nor even a single unrecorded injury.
Thank you very much to all the experienced mentors of the group and we expect that we will be forgiven for any unprofessional comment we may make out of our ignorance.
Best regards,

On Sunday, July 19, 2020 at 6:33:45 AM UTC+3, pgos...@rogers.com wrote:

Hello Sourav,

 

I’m not sure what you’re trying to convey. However what you’re writing does not make any sense at all.

Pressure vessels are not cookie cutters, they’re serious and dangerous equipment.  You can’t just weld, put inside the furnace and attach a few thermocouples…….. and be done…

I’m attached to this forum for last 10 years and have initiated and contributed many in-depth  technical issues.

If you’re interested to know something, let me know. I’ll gladly  help you.

Thanks.

 

P.Goswami.P.Eng, IWE.

Independent  & Consulting Welding & Metallurgical Specialist

Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/pradip-goswami-2999855/

Cell/Whasapp:1-905-9793232

 

From: Sourav Bohrays <sourav...@gmail.com>
Sent: July 18, 2020 7:53 AM
To: material...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [MW:31152] CS with Duplex SS (S31803) clad vessel PWHT?

 

i am not getting why you are sooo afraid of cladding with cs .you have to do nothing especial for this simply put your job in  close furnance and attached weld but remember if u are attaching thermocouple inside of vessel also than dont weld it at ss plate ,attach it at weld.i i did firing in furnace not inside the remember if its not clad than i have a option of inside firing of vessel

 

On Sat, 18 Jul 2020, 8:01 am , <pgos...@rogers.com> wrote:

A few questions on this interesting  topic  as well as  on the suggestions imparted as below.

 

  • How  do you perform local PWHT on a fully fabricated pressure vessel? If that’s the case , every weld joint (L-Seam, C-Seam, Nozzle Welds ) has to be individually wrapped by heating coils. Is that possible  after fabrication of entire vessel?
  • Restoration of Duplex clad is usually done after barrier layer by 309L.  2209 electrode/filler  may be used  also right from the first layer for restoration of clad.  
  • PWHT of 51 mm thick Duplex clad vessel would encompass the following PWHT cycle easily:-
  1. Ambient to 300 Deg C-Unlimited heating, 300 Deg C /Hr. Hold at 300 Deg c for uniform equalization of  temperature
  2. From 300 Deg C to 600 Deg C – ROH 40-50 Deg C /Hr- would involve- easily 4 hrs of heating cycle
  3. Soak 2 600-620 Deg C- for 2 hrs easily

Hence depending on the size of the vessel, a heating cycle of 7-8 hrs easily would be required between 300- Deg C  to 600 Deg C. Same would be case for cooling . Hence a PWHT .stress relief temperature @ 600 Deg C  could be quite harmful. Typically 300-700 Deg C is the formation range of various intermetallic phases for Duplex S.S.

 

It would be nice to know the decision taken by the originator of this query , for education of all concerned.

 

Thanks.

P.Goswami.P.Eng, IWE.

Independent  & Consulting Welding & Metallurgical Specialist

Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/pradip-goswami-2999855/

 

Virus-free. www.avg.com

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to materials-weld...@googlegroups.com.
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Sourav Bohrays

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Jul 21, 2020, 11:50:12 PM7/21/20
to pgos...@rogers.com, material...@googlegroups.com
i dont need your any guidance already i have equipment of this kind regularly doing this kind of equipment its better for you to do. numbers of years never matters its better you refer ucl of asme sec 8 div1 edition 2019 ..

Raghuram Bathula

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Jul 22, 2020, 12:39:46 AM7/22/20
to Materials-Welding
Dear Sourav
THIS KIND OF PERSONAL MESSAGES ARE NOT TOLERATED AND NOT ACCEPTABLE.
if you so are confident on PWHT of subject combination, and in case if you want to really share the knowledge, please share the details for our interest, if you have data  for subject material combination
cladding data, heat treatment , procedures qualifications, and test results (corrosion, impact)  etc.
if you have access to in service data of this equipment, it would be interesting to know their performance as well (how many years they are into service?)

br
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