Asme Section IX Thickness range qualification

[Isac Passaura]

Dear Experts,

I have some difficulty to interpret the requirements of ASME section IX

I have a  PQR Based on a dual process GTAW+SMAW ( 8 mm+17,4 mm) on an 25,4 mm butt weld.

Can I make a weld using only the GTAW process, base metal with a thickness of less than 5mm?

Are the image conditions correct?

Please give with details explanation regarding my above difficulty.

Thanks and Regards

Isac

[munee...@gmail.com]

Yes you can, 

Your 25.4 mm with gtaw and smaw can write 2t ranges from your PQR for what has been deposited individually.

you are going to write a WPS or below snap is ready WPS?

Check impact / PWHT requirements for what you qualified and what recommended in production joint.

Thanks.

Mohamed Muneeb Mahaboob.

--
https://materials-welding.blogspot.com/
https://www.linkedin.com/groups/122787
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Materials & Welding" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to materials-weld...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/materials-welding.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/materials-welding/c74dd763-9499-4097-b2cc-5cd52a84818d%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[George Dilintas]

No, you cannot, base metal thickness and deposited weld metal thickness are two different essential variables

--
https://materials-welding.blogspot.com/
https://www.linkedin.com/groups/122787
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Materials & Welding" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to materials-weld...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/materials-welding.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/materials-welding/c74dd763-9499-4097-b2cc-5cd52a84818d%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--

Dr. Georgios Dilintas,

Dipl. Ing. In Aeronautic and Space Engineering

Ph.D in Mechanics of Solids - Computational Mechanics

A.I.S, A.N.I, IRCA Lead Auditor

Welding, Stress Analysis, Corrosion, QA/QC, Failure Analysis, Risk Analysis

[Isac Passaura]

Thanks for the feedback

Yes, snap is ready WPS, follows attached.

But according to QW-451 because the coupon thickness is 25.4mm, the qualified range would be 5 to 2T, regardless of having deposited only 8mm with the GTAW process?

Thanks.

Isac

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to material...@googlegroups.com.

[Kannayeram Gnanapandithan]

For both process, Base metal thickness range is 5to50.8mm for combination or individual process BUT weld metal thickness is based on your deposited weldmetal thickness for each Process. There is restrictions on maximum side and no restrictions on minimum side. Conclusion. You can not weld base thickness less than 5mm. 

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to materials-weld...@googlegroups.com.

Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/materials-welding.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/materials-welding/973f737e-654a-43df-bf63-f84ed582caa9%40googlegroups.com.

[Mohd Nor Ahmad]

Dear Isac,

There are two type of thickness as per ASME IX i.e. base metal thickness, "T" and weld metal thickness, "t". WPS was qualified using 25.4 mm pipe (test specimen). The test specimen was welded by GTAW and SMAW welding process. The test specimen was welded by GTAW up to thickness of deposited 8mm and followed by SMAW  on the remaining thickness i.e. 16.5mm. So t for GTAW is 8mm and t for SMAW is 16.5mm. Therefore, the range thickness qualified as per QW-451 for base metal (T) and weld metal (t) as follows:

1. Base metal thickness, T: range of thickness qualified (for test specimen thickness of 19mm to 38mm) are 5 mm Min. to 2T (2 x 25.4 = 50.8mm) Max. However, if your WPS/PQR with impact test, the range base metal thickness qualified is T or 16mm, whichever is less as per QW-403,6. For test specimen thickness 25.4mm, T qualified is 16mm to 50.8mm only.

2. Weld metal thickness, t:

    a) weld metal thickness qualified for GTAW is 2t = 2 x 8 = 16mm. Max

    b) weld metal thickness qualified for SMAW is 2t = 2 x 16.5 = 33mm Max.

Your question: Can I make a weld using only the GTAW process, base metal with a thickness of less than 5mm? 

The answer is NO because the minimum base metal thickness qualified is less than 5mm either by GTAW or SMAW process.

However, there little bit difference on converting between imperial unit and metric unit. If we you calculate 3/16in. x 25.4 = 4.8mm but ASME IX use 5 mm. This depend on unit is used for your design/project.

Thanks & regards.

Mohd Nor

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to materials-weld...@googlegroups.com.

Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/materials-welding.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/materials-welding/973f737e-654a-43df-bf63-f84ed582caa9%40googlegroups.com.

[munee...@gmail.com]

Hi,

For your case less than 5 mm, i agree with Mr.Nor Ahmad, he has the explicit reply.

Thanks.

Mohamed Muneeb Mahaboob.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/materials-welding/145011575.3598594.1563426218112%40mail.yahoo.com.

[Bathula AnilKumar]

As per the WPS attached by you it is not specifying any impact testing, hence Supplementary essential variables need not be considered.

Hence clause number 403.6 need not be considered,

As per Note 2 from Table QW451.1

Please refer Clause no 200.4 which states “ QW-451 shall be used to determine the range of base metal thickness and maximum weld metal thickness qualified for each process, filler metal, or set of variables, and those limits shall be observed. “

As per it I feel that GTAW process is individually Qualified for 1.5mm to 16mm,

 

Thanks and regards

B. Anil Kumar

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/materials-welding/145011575.3598594.1563426218112%40mail.yahoo.com.

[Mohamed Muneeb]

There shall not be any feelings in your interpretation, You cannot as it said for coupon, I was seeing for that option and referred all interpretation, but no other choice, it's clearly said for coupon you cannot elude the fact.

Hence I agreed with his answer as explicit as there is no room for doubt.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/materials-welding/77812e12489b9d7479bd4feca6056d1a%40mail.gmail.com.

[Kannayeram Gnanapandithan]

There is no question on GTAW weldmetal because maximum only is restricted , there is no restriction on minimum,   THE QUESTION IS REGARDING BASE METAL THICKNESS,  LESS THAN 5MM , U CAN NOT USE THESE QUALIFIED PROCESS. 

THANKS & BEST REGARDS,

KG.PANDITHAN, BE, IWE,  CSWIP 3.1,

ISO 9712 Level 2 in VT,

ASNT-Level II in PT,MT,RT & UT,

LA ISO 9001-2015,

International Welding Engineer. 

CONSULTANT-WELDING & QUALITY

Mobile no: +919940739349

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/materials-welding/CANtRWKvVbheN8KrcW%2Bk%3DWcEbA-fEHzzvxWRmbu2yh0NnmtxBZQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[Mohd Nor Ahmad]

Dear all,

The range of base metal thickness as written in WPS i.e. 4.8mm to 50.8mm is misleading. Suppose base metal thickness qualified is 5mm to 50.8mm because the base metal thickness in metric unit (25.4 mm). If base metal thickness in imperial unit e.g 1 in. therefore the base metal qualified is 3/16 in to 2 in. The 4.8mm (= 3/16 x 25.4. Convert from mm to in) is exist in Table QW-451.1 of ASME IX.

Thanks & regards

Mohd Nor

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/materials-welding/CAJzm4eMVdHHWJ6SG08CghS3HArQLCAR53K9CSLnwRjwt9o6VyQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[munee...@gmail.com]

Hi,

QW-200.4 clearly states that for more than one WPS or process QW-451 shall be used for any T ot t, or even if you go with QW-200.4(b), 451 is constant.

Hence irrelavant of small t (deposition) your big T (thickness) superceeds small t, as per the material thickness selection wise which is followed by below,

*Thickness T of Test Coupon, Welded, in. (mm) 

*Range of Thickness T of Base Metal, Qualified, in. (mm) [Note (1)] and [Note (2)]

1) So as per my yellow highlight minimum thickness comes under Thickness (T) and range Thickness (T), in this case irrelavant to deposition or irrelavant of your process consideration or imagination or feelings, your written procedure gets knocked out and you are forced to write a procedure (per QW-451) ensuring 5 to 50.8mm (PQR-NON IMPACT) as a whole (T) in which what deposition (t) has been ensured in PQR shall be acts as 2t of Maximum Thickness t of Deposited Weld Metal, Qualified, in. (mm).

2) Whether it is process or deposition, there is no hide and seek or beating around the bush, as QW-200.4 clearly state comeback to QW-451. 

3) May your imperial system dances on any side saying mm or inches, still you are knocked out going below 5 as per 451 which is governed stipulating 5mm in the range  {3/4 (19) to less than 11/2 (38) 3/16 (5)}.

4) I would had agreed upon your written procedure if ASME ensured QW-451 on any Ts removing coupon to process based deposition (t) for combination, but unfortunately it is a big NO.

5) My all the above calculations are based upon your writings ''I have a  PQR Based on a dual process GTAW+SMAW ( 8 mm+17,4 mm) on an 25,4'' i doubt this is your coupon thickness not deposition? submit the PQR for full scrutiny, even if deposition your coupon thickness maybe in between in the ranges above 20 to 25 mm, in which your minimum is 5mm T to 2T max, whereas deposition 2t.

Concluding above all the facts what WPS you have written is unacceptable as per IX of ASME, with glitches and some information not available in your WPS, kindly notify the approver that he is approving unacceptable WPSs as a final party.

See below for better understanding.

Grade	P-No	F-No	Filler / Electrode	Process	Thickness	ASME
CS	P-No.1	6/4	ER70S-3 / E7018	GTAW+SMAW	5-20mm	B31.3
CS	P-No.1	6/4	ER70S-3 / E7018	GTAW+SMAW	1.5-19mm	B31.1
CS	P-No.1	6/4	ER70S-3 / E7018	GTAW+SMAW	5-20mm	B31.3
CS	P-No.1	6/4	ER70S-3 / E7018	GTAW+SMAW	5-30.16mm	B31.3
P11	P-No.4	6/4	ER80S-B2 / E8018-B2	GTAW+SMAW	5-13mm	B31.1
P11	P-No.4	6/4	ER80S-B2 / E8018-B2	GTAW+SMAW	5-36.52mm	B31.1
P22	P-No.5	6/4	ER90S-B3 / 9018-B3	GTAW+SMAW	5-60mm	B31.1
P91	P-No.15E	6/4	ER90S-B9 / E9015-B9	GTAW+SMAW	5-60mm	B31.1
P11 + CS	P4+P1	6/4	ER80S-B2 / E8018-B2	GTAW+SMAW	5-13mm	B31.1
P11 + CS	P4+P1	6/4	ER80S-B2 / E8018-B2	GTAW+SMAW	5-36.52mm	B31.1
P22+P11	P5A+P4	6/4	ER90S-B3 / 9018-B3	GTAW+SMAW	5-60mm	B31.1
P22+ CS	P5A+P1	6/4	ER90S-B3 / 9018-B3	GTAW+SMAW	5-60mm	B31.1
P91+P22	P-No.15E+P5A	6/4	ER90S-B9 / 9018-B9	GTAW+SMAW	5-60mm	B31.1

Yours

MOHAMED MUNEEB MAHABOOB

+91-786-700-444-6      TRZ - INDIA

''The best of you is the one who accept the fact even if any of you is on wrong side, when proofs are shown -

The universal best policy of a mankind in which heart accepts a thing oppsite to which mind does not want to''

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/materials-welding/591790594.4217784.1563520969585%40mail.yahoo.com.