PWHT

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zhy3...@gmail.com

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Sep 14, 2016, 11:00:48 PM9/14/16
to Materials & Welding
Dear sir
good day 
pls hlep us confirm whether we need apply PWHT for every girth weld according to your experience.
pipe ：API 5 L X60 HIC resistant pipe
welding method: CRC automatic
pipeline diameter and thickness:20inch 0.4inch(10MM)
medium：sour condensate 
pressure:960psi
pipeline distance：164km between two gas plant in saudi （safaniya plant to berris gas plant)
client：saudi aramco

CNPC daqing saudi 
QAQC


pgoswami

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Sep 14, 2016, 11:40:13 PM9/14/16
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Hello, ZHY370137,

 

I’m not sure why you’re asking this question is general forum, when your contract is bound by your clients’ specifications and project requirements. Aramco has very comprehensive specifications for almost everything. If Aramco SAES-W-012 is applicable for your project you need to what’s needed as per this spec.

 

What’s  the design code, of the pipeline B-31.4 or 31.8? And what’re the Aramco specifications applicable?

 

Usually for sour service hardness control is “mandatory” to mitigate the HIC. One of the effective ways to ensure hardness control is PWHT, unless vendor is able to prove otherwise.

 

Appreciate your response.

 

Thanks.

 

 

 

Pradip Goswami, P.Eng,IWE

Welding & Metallurgical Engineering Specialist ,
Ontario,Canada.
ca.linkedin.com/pub/pradip-goswami/5/985/299

pgos...@quickclic.net

pradip....@gmail.com

 

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水海岩

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Sep 15, 2016, 2:28:25 AM9/15/16
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Dear pgoswami:

Thank you for your reply!

PIPELINE design code is B-31.4/31.8 , Aramco specifications is SAES-W-012 and design office  is SNC- lavalin
the pipeline is LSPB contract and  in bidding phase, but design discription about PHWT just  is acoording to standard and spc  .
But we just find  hardness control for sour services in the above document (girth weld and HAZ hardness is more than 250 HV10)
According to my experiences, girth weld and HAZ hardness of X60 mterial is lower than 250 HV10 without PWHT.(EVEN like this ,in other country iraq or iran ,we need apply PWHT for girth weld because feed design requirment)
So pls help us confirm whether girth weld and HAZ Apply PWHT or just control hardness,because it is the first bid  in the saudi aramco.

thank you 

CNPC daqing saudi 

QAQC

 

 

From: materials-welding@googlegroups.com [mailto:materials-welding@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of zhy3...@gmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2016 10:59 AM
To: Materials & Welding
Subject: [MW:25392] PWHT

 

Dear sir

good day 

pls hlep us confirm whether we need apply PWHT for every girth weld according to your experience.

pipe ：API 5 L X60 HIC resistant pipe

welding method: CRC automatic

pipeline diameter and thickness:20inch 0.4inch(10MM)

medium：sour condensate 

pressure:960psi

pipeline distance：164km between two gas plant in saudi （safaniya plant to berris gas plant)

client：saudi aramco

 

CNPC daqing saudi 

QAQC

 

 

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Alan Denney

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Sep 15, 2016, 5:59:23 AM9/15/16
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·         Check the project client specifications to see if PWHT is mandatory. It is unlikely.

·         The international standard pipeline design/installation codes would not require PWHT for a pipeline of this diameter and wall thickness.

·         The main reason why you may need to apply PWHT is to meet the required hardness limit which the client specification will inevitably require. That is to say if you fail to meet the specified maximum hardness during welding procedure qualification then PWHT would be one way of changing that situation, but not the best way for production reasons. Alternatively your welding engineer should know how to manage this issue by other means, avoiding PWHT, for example by applying more preheat, controlling the sequence of weld passes or by increasing the thermal input during welding.

·         The reason for the hardness limit is to avoid sulphide stress corrosion cracking caused by the H2S in the sour condensate. Contrary to what others have said hardness control does not affect hydrogen induced cracking susceptibility, which will occur if the linepipe is susceptible to it and there is H2S in the product. You have to have pipe which has been shown not to be susceptible to HIC.

 

Alan Denney

AKD Materials Consulting Ltd

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Ahmed Husain

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Sep 16, 2016, 2:33:49 AM9/16/16
to material...@googlegroups.com, 水海岩
Hi everyone,

As per Aramco specifications such as W-011 and W-012, only hardness is mandatory for sour services,  normally on sampling basis ( 10%). Regarding PWHT, it is either required based on construction code or some specific services such as caustic or amines which are clearly stated in both the aramco standards, not for all sour services.

Regards
Ahmed 


On Thu, 15 Sep, 2016 at 9:28 am, 水海岩
Dear pgoswami:

Thank you for your reply!

PIPELINE design code is B-31.4/31.8 , Aramco specifications is SAES-W-012 and design office  is SNC- lavalin
the pipeline is LSPB contract and  in bidding phase, but design discription about PHWT just  is acoording to standard and spc  .
But we just find  hardness control for sour services in the above document (girth weld and HAZ hardness is more than 250 HV10)
According to my experiences, girth weld and HAZ hardness of X60 mterial is lower than 250 HV10 without PWHT.(EVEN like this ,in other country iraq or iran ,we need apply PWHT for girth weld because feed design requirment)
So pls help us confirm whether girth weld and HAZ Apply PWHT or just control hardness,because it is the first bid  in the saudi aramco.

thank you 

CNPC daqing saudi 

QAQC

 


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Anup N K E

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Sep 16, 2016, 10:44:48 PM9/16/16
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As per B 31.4 and B 31.8 , PWHT is not required up to a wall thickness of 32 mm. Refer section  434.8.9 of B 31.4

Hardness testing to be on your PQR test coupons ( without PWHT) and the limit is 250 VHN for sour service application . ( para 7.5.1 of SAES - W- 12 ). This is required for your WPS to get CSD approval ( for sour service) .

Regards,

Anup N K E

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pgoswami

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Sep 17, 2016, 3:38:41 PM9/17/16
to material...@googlegroups.com, zhy3...@gmail.com

Hi Zhy,

 

There’re many potential areas of pitfalls with many ifs and buts, the interpretations are a bit twisted. However it’s worth taking a look.

 

Aramco Spec SAE W-012-2013 mandates:-

 

 

7.5 Welding Procedure Qualification Hardness Testing—This is required on the PQR .

7.5.1 Hardness testing of the welding procedure qualification is required for sour service applications and for girth welds of all offshore pipelines. The maximum allowable hardness for sour service is VHN 250.

 

 

13 Production Weld Hardness testing—when required?? If so what’s the criteria?

13.1 Hardness testing according to ASTM A833 of production welds is only required if specified by CSD or if PWHT is applied due to service requirement. If specified, the maximum hardness for PNo. 1 material is 225 BHN for non-sour service and 200 BHN for sour service.

 

 

12 Post weld Heat Treatment

12.1 The requirement for post weld heat treatment (PWHT) shall be determined by ASME B31.4 or ASME B31.8, as appropriate.

 

12.6 For applications where PWHT is required by the service conditions or where hardness limits are specified: ---

a) Any reductions in the PWHT temperature or alternative temperatures below the normal holding temperatures listed in ASME SEC VIII are not permitted.

b) The minimum PWHT soak time shall be 1 hour.

c) If hardness limits are specified, the soak time for production welds shall not be less than 80% of the PQR soak time

 

 

ASME B-31.8 Requirements:

B823.2 Requirements for Qualification of Procedures and Welders on Sour Gas Piping Systems:-

B823.2.4 Hardness Control. The hardness of all weld zones including weld metal and heat-affected zones on welding qualification test specimens shall meet the hardness requirements for the alloys welded as specified in NACE MR0175/ISO 15156. For most common pipe alloys, the maximum allowable hardness is HRC22. It is the user’s responsibility to ensure the welding qualification specimen is metallurgically representative of full-scale pipeline welds.

 

B825 STRESS RELIEVING –CARBON STEEL: The chemistry of the steel and welding procedure shall be controlled to limit the hardness of the weldment as required by para. B823.2.4. when the effectiveness of such controls is questionable, consideration shall be given to stress relieving welds in sour gas service. In general, temper bead welding, peening procedures, or low-temperature post weld heat treatment does not provide the equivalent protection from service cracking as does a full thermal stress relief.

 

To summarize:-

 

v    Aramco spec restricts the hardness  for sour service (Clause 7.5.1.)

v    PWHT is s requirement weher hardness restrictions are mandated(Clause 12.6)

v    B-31.8 ,mandates hardness control ,which is difficult maintain under  field welding condictions, many variables,( pipe C.A, welding  conditons,effectiveness of field hardness testing). The alternative is  PWHT is all the above control fails in service.

 

 

Iwould interpret that PWHT should be an integral part of your FEED  package for piping codes on B-31.8  for sour service requirements, based on the above rationales

 

For piping designed to B-31.4 PWHT is not a requirement unless the wall thickness exceeds 11/4 inch (32 mm)(Clause 434.8.9 Stress Relieving). However Armco Specification would call for an adopting PWHT due to hardness control where the service is sour.

 

 

I would say getting the clarification before hand  from Aramco’s PMT or CSD would be beneficial for your organization.

 

Thanks.

 

 

Pradip Goswami, P.Eng,IWE
Welding & Metallurgical Engineering Specialist ,

Ontario,Canada.
ca.linkedin.com/pub/pradip-goswami/5/985/299

pgos...@quickclic.net

pradip....@gmail.com

 

Dear pgoswami:

 

Medium：sour condensate 

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ASME B-31.8-B-31.4-vs Aramco-SAE W-012-2013.pdf

Ahmed Eissa

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Sep 27, 2016, 2:13:36 AM9/27/16
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Regarding the belowmentioned
I need to confirm that HIC is not controlled by hardness control but by steel chemistry 

All shall be reminded that wet sour service induce 

Sulfide stress cracking
Hydrogen induced cracking 
Stress oriented hydrogen induced cracking 
Hydrogen blistering 

Nace MR 0175 or nace MR 0103 only control ssc, please read these code introduction /preface 

Ahmed eissa 
Materials and Corrosion Engineer 


On Thu, 15 Sep, 2016 at 5:38 am, pgoswami

George Dilintas

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Sep 27, 2016, 3:56:50 AM9/27/16
to Meghanadh K
It is controlled by the crystalline structure and more specifically:
  1. by the diffusion of atomic hydrogen
  2. by the capability to sustain the pressure of molecular hydrogen by plastic transformation
The increase of hardness is an indication of low ductility and thus less possibility of plastic transformation of the grains

From: materials-welding@googlegroups.com [mailto:materials-welding@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of zhy3...@gmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2016 10:59 AM
To: Materials & Welding
Subject: [MW:25392] PWHT

 

Dear sir

good day 

pls hlep us confirm whether we need apply PWHT for every girth weld according to your experience.

pipe ：API 5 L X60 HIC resistant pipe

welding method: CRC automatic

pipeline diameter and thickness:20inch 0.4inch(10MM)

medium：sour condensate 

pressure:960psi

pipeline distance：164km between two gas plant in saudi （safaniya plant to berris gas plant)

client：saudi aramco

 

CNPC daqing saudi 

QAQC

 

 

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Ph.D in Mechanics of Solids - Computational Mechanics
A.I.S, A.N.I, IRCA Lead Auditor
Welding, Stress Analysis, Corrosion, QA/QC, Failure Analysis, Risk Analysis

Alan Denney

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Sep 27, 2016, 11:25:31 AM9/27/16
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There is a danger that the discussion is getting confused. Confirming what Ahmed Eissa wrote:

 

Hydrogen induced cracking (HIC) – using this term strictly in relation to the behaviour of carbon and carbon-manganese controlled rolled steels to crack where the process fluids contain relatively small quantities of hydrogen sulphide (and not the many other types of cracking related to hydrogen in steels) is unrelated to hardness. It is due to the presence of elongated manganese sulphide inclusions in the steel (type II manganese sulphide inclusions) which provide sites for the accumulation of atomic hydrogen which then form molecular hydrogen which fractures the steel, causing cracking or blistering.

 

Sulphide stress corrosion cracking of steels is again due to hydrogen sulphide and the factors are the concentration of hydrogen sulphide (partial pressure thereof) the pH of the solution and the susceptibility of the material, commonly assessed by its hardness. NACE MR0175 relates to this type of cracking.

 

Alan Denney

AKD Materials Consulting Ltd

From: material...@googlegroups.com [mailto:material...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of zhy3...@gmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2016 10:59 AM
To: Materials & Welding
Subject: [MW:25392] PWHT

 

Dear sir

good day 

pls hlep us confirm whether we need apply PWHT for every girth weld according to your experience.

pipe ：API 5 L X60 HIC resistant pipe

welding method: CRC automatic

pipeline diameter and thickness:20inch 0.4inch(10MM)

medium：sour condensate 

pressure:960psi

pipeline distance：164km between two gas plant in saudi （safaniya plant to berris gas plant)

client：saudi aramco

 

CNPC daqing saudi 

QAQC

 

 

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Dipl. Ing. In Aeronautic and Space Engineering

Ph.D in Mechanics of Solids - Computational Mechanics

A.I.S, A.N.I, IRCA Lead Auditor

Welding, Stress Analysis, Corrosion, QA/QC, Failure Analysis, Risk Analysis

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Kannayeram Gnanapandithan

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Sep 28, 2016, 6:26:01 AM9/28/16
to materials-welding

Txs Alan, what about HICC, does it occur only in weldments


On 27-Sep-2016 8:55 pm, "Alan Denney" <al...@denney1.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

There is a danger that the discussion is getting confused. Confirming what Ahmed Eissa wrote:

 

Hydrogen induced cracking (HIC) – using this term strictly in relation to the behaviour of carbon and carbon-manganese controlled rolled steels to crack where the process fluids contain relatively small quantities of hydrogen sulphide (and not the many other types of cracking related to hydrogen in steels) is unrelated to hardness. It is due to the presence of elongated manganese sulphide inclusions in the steel (type II manganese sulphide inclusions) which provide sites for the accumulation of atomic hydrogen which then form molecular hydrogen which fractures the steel, causing cracking or blistering.

 

Sulphide stress corrosion cracking of steels is again due to hydrogen sulphide and the factors are the concentration of hydrogen sulphide (partial pressure thereof) the pH of the solution and the susceptibility of the material, commonly assessed by its hardness. NACE MR0175 relates to this type of cracking.

 

Alan Denney

AKD Materials Consulting Ltd

From: materials-welding@googlegroups.com [mailto:materials-welding@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of zhy3...@gmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2016 10:59 AM
To: Materials & Welding
Subject: [MW:25392] PWHT

 

Dear sir

good day 

pls hlep us confirm whether we need apply PWHT for every girth weld according to your experience.

pipe ：API 5 L X60 HIC resistant pipe

welding method: CRC automatic

pipeline diameter and thickness:20inch 0.4inch(10MM)

medium：sour condensate 

pressure:960psi

pipeline distance：164km between two gas plant in saudi （safaniya plant to berris gas plant)

client：saudi aramco

 

CNPC daqing saudi 

QAQC

 

 

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Dipl. Ing. In Aeronautic and Space Engineering

Ph.D in Mechanics of Solids - Computational Mechanics

A.I.S, A.N.I, IRCA Lead Auditor

Welding, Stress Analysis, Corrosion, QA/QC, Failure Analysis, Risk Analysis

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Alan Denney

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Sep 28, 2016, 7:37:41 AM9/28/16
to material...@googlegroups.com

 

Alan Denney

AKD Materials Consulting Ltd

From: material...@googlegroups.com [mailto:material...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Kannayeram Gnanapandithan
Sent: 27 September 2016 16:32
To: materials-welding <material...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: RE: [MW:25462] RE: 25392] PWHT

 

Txs Alan, what about HICC, does it occur only in weldments

On 27-Sep-2016 8:55 pm, "Alan Denney" <al...@denney1.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

There is a danger that the discussion is getting confused. Confirming what Ahmed Eissa wrote:

 

Hydrogen induced cracking (HIC) – using this term strictly in relation to the behaviour of carbon and carbon-manganese controlled rolled steels to crack where the process fluids contain relatively small quantities of hydrogen sulphide (and not the many other types of cracking related to hydrogen in steels) is unrelated to hardness. It is due to the presence of elongated manganese sulphide inclusions in the steel (type II manganese sulphide inclusions) which provide sites for the accumulation of atomic hydrogen which then form molecular hydrogen which fractures the steel, causing cracking or blistering.

 

Sulphide stress corrosion cracking of steels is again due to hydrogen sulphide and the factors are the concentration of hydrogen sulphide (partial pressure thereof) the pH of the solution and the susceptibility of the material, commonly assessed by its hardness. NACE MR0175 relates to this type of cracking.

 

Alan Denney

AKD Materials Consulting Ltd

From: material...@googlegroups.com [mailto:material...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of zhy3...@gmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2016 10:59 AM
To: Materials & Welding
Subject: [MW:25392] PWHT

 

Dear sir

good day 

pls hlep us confirm whether we need apply PWHT for every girth weld according to your experience.

pipe ：API 5 L X60 HIC resistant pipe

welding method: CRC automatic

pipeline diameter and thickness:20inch 0.4inch(10MM)

medium：sour condensate 

pressure:960psi

pipeline distance：164km between two gas plant in saudi （safaniya plant to berris gas plant)

client：saudi aramco

 

CNPC daqing saudi 

QAQC

 

 

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Dr. Georgios Dilintas,

Dipl. Ing. In Aeronautic and Space Engineering

Ph.D in Mechanics of Solids - Computational Mechanics

A.I.S, A.N.I, IRCA Lead Auditor

Welding, Stress Analysis, Corrosion, QA/QC, Failure Analysis, Risk Analysis

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