ER70S-2 and ER70S-6 (GTAW Process)

[K K]

Dear All,

My PQR is qualified with ER70S-2.

Can I use ( Mention) ER70S-6 in WPS.

Regards

Kiran

[Rajagopal Kannan]

Hi Kiran,

You cannot, as ER70S-6, does not fall under any A no.

Thanks and Best Regards,

K.Rajagopal

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[Revdiwala Darshan]

If impact is not applicable than you can use.

Regards,

Darshan

[Kannayeram Gnanapandithan]

Code doesn't restrict but u will not get it in cut to length. Hardness will also increase due to more Mn, Si. It is better to add ER 70S3

[HENNING John]

Yes you can.  However, if your WPS states that the filler metal per essential variable QW-404.5, will meet the Table QW-422 A-No. 1 chemistry limits, you will have to note that the Mn and Si must be 1.60 and 1.0 or less respectively.  You need to do incorporate this restriction as the SFA classification permits ER70-S6 to exceed the A-No. 1 limits

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[Revdiwala Darshan]

Please refer QW-404.12 (f) for code restriction.

Regards,

Darshan

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[pradip kumar Sil]

Yes You can, Both "F" no are same

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[George Dilintas]

you cannot. No A number matches composition of ER7-S-6 becuase of Mn, You need a new PQR

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Dr. Georgios Dilintas,

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A.I.S, A.N.I, IRCA Lead Auditor

Welding, Stress Analysis, Corrosion, QA/QC, Failure Analysis, Risk Analysis

[nithind...@gmail.com]

Dear All,

Request you to go through the query properly before you reply. Also do not reply if u are not clear about it. Else it will lead to confusion. 

A no is essential variable for WPS/PQR.  Irrelevant of impact requirements. A no of ER 70S-2 and ER 70S-6 will never match. Hence you need to go for new PQR. 

Sent from my iPhone

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[Zeghanu Gigi]

John Henning explained very clear:

Yes you can.  However, if your WPS states that the filler metal per essential variable QW-404.5, will meet the Table QW-422 A-No. 1 chemistry limits, you will have to note that the Mn and Si must be 1.60 and 1.0 or less respectively.  You need to do incorporate this restriction as the SFA classification permits ER70-S6 to exceed the A-No. 1 limits

Confirmation on the AWS forum.Please check.

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[munee...@gmail.com]

Folks,

Thats great discussion, only two gents explained very neatly (John Henning & Zeghanu Gigi), however lets see explicit comparisons as per below items,

1) you cannot evade or elude QW-404.5 when you qualify your WPS per ASME IX in which QW-442 must follow with regards to ferrous metals.

2) SFA 5.18,  all F-Nos are classified as F6, that doesnt mean that you can pull the trigger for all fillers, why? refer Item 3 and 4 for simple ex between sujected fillers ER-70S-2 vs ER-70S-6.

3) ER-70S-2 (Mn 1.40 Max & Si 0.70 Max) Vs ER-70S-6 (Mn 1.85 Max & Si 1.15 Max)

4) Vs QW-442 (A-No-1) Mn 1.60 Max & Si 1.0 Max.

Concluding that if you have qualified PQR ER-70s-2 and you want to use ER-70s-6 which exceeds 1.60 Mn & Si 1.00 above then you are deemed to qualify a new PQR as it exceeds A-no 1 requirements, however if composition falls below item no 4 with in A-No-1, then you can use without any doubt.

Moreover SA has approved ER70s-6 for sour service with restrictions and mandates change in A-no1 to 2 with requalification for sour as for non sour not mandated 100% requalification irrelavant of ASME IX QW-404.5 (b) but with review and further acceptance.

So for the folks saying simply yes without a reason or simply no without a reason or no with reason is disagreed on the basis of my explanation / proof / references.

Hence ER70s-6 can be used as per above consequences , you can accept the facts or deny but dont cling on your perception or level of understanding.

 

Regards,

Mohamed Muneeb Mahaboob,

+628-5959-11-3441

+91-786-700-444-6

TPI-BV.

''Sculpt the art you know - come what may''  

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[Kannayeram Gnanapandithan]

Since u r using 100% Argon, Deoxidation will not take place due to shielding and not much reduction in Mn & Si to match Ano 1 as per ASME IX. If u  use active gas , u can. 

So u can not write in WPS for 70S6

THANKS & BEST REGARDS,

KG.PANDITHAN, BE, IWE,  CSWIP 3.1,

ISO 9712 Level 2 in VT,

ASNT-Level II in PT,MT,RT & UT,

LA ISO 9001-2015,

International Welding Engineer. 

CONSULTANT-WELDING & QUALITY

Mobile no: +919940739349

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[munee...@gmail.com]

For Reference purpose only:

Final Approval with SA with comments approved code B

Regards,

Mohamed Muneeb Mahaboob.

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[HENNING John]

Enough already.  Assuming that only ASME Section IX applies;  i.e. you are designing and fabricating per ASME I, VIII, B31.1 etc.

 

OK, just for grins, let’s take a look at GTAW Essential variable QW-404.5, “A change in A-Number”, at least in part. 

 

“QW-404.5 (Applicable only to ferrous metals.) A change in the chemical composition of the weld deposit from one A‐Number to any other A‐Number in Table QW-442. Qualification with A‐No. 1 shall qualify for A‐No. 2 and vice versa. The weld metal chemical composition may be deter-mined by any of the following:

(a) For all welding processes —from the chemical analysis of the weld deposit taken from the procedure qualification test coupon.

(b) For SMAW, GTAW, LBW, and PAW — from the chemical analysis of the weld deposit prepared according to the filler metal specification, or from the chemical composition as reported either in the filler metal specification or the manufacturer’s or supplier’s certificate of compliance.  . . . “

 

The A-Number may be assigned by the filler metal specification BUT it is not necessary to.  The A-Number can also be determined on the basis of the actual weld deposit chemistry.  Hence, if you specify that your ER70S-6 must comply with the A-Number 1 chemistry limits (and you actually do so) then absolutely, yes, you may substitute the ER70S-6 for ER70S-2.

 

This clearly is wholly separate from any other specifications applied by the customer which may impose additional limits on variables not controlled by ASME.

 

Enjoy.

 

From: material...@googlegroups.com [mailto:material...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Kannayeram Gnanapandithan

Sent: Friday, June 07, 2019 3:42 AM
To: materials-welding

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[George Dilintas]

ER70S-6 chemical composition does not allow A-No allocation. 

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[MW]

just to update

ASME Boiler & Pressure Vessel Code 2023 Edition Significant changes include:
-Added an optional supplemental “A” designator to indicate that an ER70S-6A electrode or R70S-6A rod has met the chemical composition requirements of A-No. 1 (SFA-5.18/SFA-5.18M).
-Added optional supplemental designators to indicate ranges of shielding gases for which an electrode meets the requirements for classification, including any optional, supplemental designators. This resolves major issues previously associated with determining the A-No. for these filler metals.

[Kannayeram Gnanapandithan]

it means  need not test weldmetal again while doing PQR. 

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[Raghuram Bathula]

yes for new PQR's when use ER70S-6A

[Vishwas Keskar Welding Manager WELDING]

You can write ER70S-6 with a note in WPS that :

Mn content shall not exceed 1.6 % 

Si content shall not exceed 1.0 % 

Thanks

VIshwas - IWE 

[Pham Thanh Tinh]

You can write ER-70S-6 with a note in WPS for Non Sour service. 

Vào Th 4, 16 thg 8, 2023 vào lúc 11:52 Vishwas Keskar Welding Manager WELDING <vvkes...@gmail.com> đã viết:

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Best & Regard

Pham Thanh Tinh

QC Manager

China National Chemical Engineering Third Co.LTD

South Ghawar Gas Separation Plant & Associated Facilities Project

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Mobile phone +966. 556802308 

[sridhar cn]

Due to triple deoxidizers present in the filler, the ER70S-2 wire is much more suited to weld on rusted surfaces 

compared to ER70S-6. Rust, which is an iron oxide, will react very fast with Ti, Zr, or Al to form their oxides, such 

as TiO₂ or ZrO₂ or Al₂O₃ thus the Mn will be saved. Mn provides strength and toughness to the weldment. So, 

any loss of Mn from the weld deposit will actually reduce the strength of the weld metal.

 

Loss of silicon will make the weld pool sluggish and can result in a poor weld bead appearance. There is no 

difference between ER 70S-6 and ER 70S-2 based on the mechanical properties, as both have 70ksi Tensile 

strength and 58 Ksi Yield strength. Both wires provide equal minimum specified tensile strength, yield strength, 

ductility, and toughness values.

  

ER 70S-6 is a solid TIG rod that is used for general-purpose welding. It can be used on MS, CS and LA  steels.

ER 70S-2 is available in 0.80 to 3.20 mm sizes, whereas ER 70S0-6 is available mostly in 0.80 to 2.00 mm sizes. 

Make a mock-up weld and see whether it meets X-ray qualified welds and check the mechanical properties prior 

to any further action.

 

C Sridhar.

  

[Kannayeram Gnanapandithan]

generally 70S2 is not being used in GMAW eventhough it calls for both process, Any reasons?

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[Kannayeram Gnanapandithan]

Any advantage in writing chemistry in WPS, how it will help welders. 

[Sudalai Kannan]

Dear, We can use ER70S-6 instead of ER70S-2, but we need to specify * in the WPS (*Mn content shall not exceed 1.6 % and

Si content shall not exceed 1.0 %) to limit the A number as per QW-442.

 As per Table QW-442, ESAB OK Tigrod 12.61 contains Mn & Si values within limits, while OK Tigrod 12.64 contains more Mn & Si.

Thanks & Regards,

Sudalai. M

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[sridhar cn]

ER70S-2 filler wire is mainly used for single-pass welding of killed, semi-killed, and rimmed steels. 

The addition of deoxidizer allows the filler metal to be used for welding steel with rust or dirt on the 

surface, which may damage the weld quality, depending on the surface conditions. It is widely used 

for high-quality and high-toughness GTAW welds and is well suited for single-side welding without 

the need for root gas protection on the reverse side of the joint. .

ER70S-6 filler wire is suitable for both single-pass and multi-pass welding. They are particularly suitable 

for sheet metal where smooth weld passes are expected and for sheet steel with moderate amounts 

of rust or hot rolled scale. These wires allow for higher current ranges when welding with a CO2 

shielded gas or a mixture of argon, carbon dioxide, and oxygen or argon and carbon dioxide. Typically, 

the base material used is the same as ER70S-2. Well suited for single-side welding without the need for 

root gas protection on the reverse side of the joint.

Further, with the addition of deoxidizers in ER 70S-2, the cost of the wire is three times higher than 

ER70S-6 filler wires.

Sridhar.

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[Kannayeram Gnanapandithan]

Why generally ER &70S2 not recommended for GMAW even though classified in same Specification.

THANKS & BEST REGARDS,

KG.PANDITHAN, BE, IWE,  CSWIP 3.1,

ISO 9712 Level 2 in VT,

ASNT-Level II in PT,MT,RT & UT,

LA ISO 9001-2015,

International Welding Engineer. 

CONSULTANT-WELDING & QUALITY

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[Jay Poojary]

Dear Experts,

I think, it can be used, since nothing is restricting as per ASME section IX.

Thank you,

Jay Poojary 

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