Bees are still not doing well - post 2024.

[Greg V]

Pretty much the nucs are just not growing for me and keep dwindling down.
This is very unusual for the mid-summer.

I start a clean new nucleus unit, no brood, do Oxalic dribble too, and it still just depopulates - at some point it is so depopulated it is no longer self-sustainable. Pretty much a lone queen is running about, very few bees, un-attended/dying brood, or no brood (because no bees left to care for the brood). 

It happens more often than not. Even last summer (which ended badly) I could not keep up with the explosive growth. But this summer I cannot provide the queens enough support crew - the bees just disappear. What is the heck going on? Even the few overwintered queens are affected by the same crud that I can see.

I now started thinking of potentially contaminated combs by some systemic insecticides maybe from the last season. Trying to purge the old combs out of rotation...

I know many people keep to themselves and it is fine.
But it would be good to know if we have a wide-spread issue or not.

Anyone in the are seeing the same? Is it just me?
Continuation of the 2024 die-off where no one provided any clear answers?

[Scott Mckay]

All my nucs have been doing great this year. Fortunately, I don’t have any commercial farming nearby.

If I had to guess, your bees might be collecting pollen from crops treated with neonicotinoids, which can cause developmental issues in the larvae. You could try giving your nucs pollen patties to discourage them from foraging contaminated sources. It might help—even if just a little.

Good luck!

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[Greg V]

On-line friend pointed me to Randy O' recent post - Randy O., in fact, observes similar things to what I observe too (pasted below) - see the "dwindling phenomenon". 

Something is still going on and the upcoming winter will not be pretty I recon.
-------------------------------

Subject: Re: Update on US bee mortality findings From: Randy Oliver <[log in to unmask]> Reply To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology <[log in to unmask]> Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2025 09:46:09 -0700 Content-Type: text/plain Parts/Attachments: text/plain (19 lines)

*>*Was the cause of the increased loss discovered? We all expected high losses due to amitraz resistance. But the dwindling phenomenon that many of us experienced was something different. I'm currently seeing it again in a few hives -- no mites, no nosema. I'm arranging to send some bee samples for metagenomic analysis to see whether we can identify the culprit. Randy Oliver Grass Valley, CA 530 277 4450 ScientificBeekeeping.com

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[J.R. Migs]

I've read about the development of genetically modified flowering plants internally producing pesticides.  Mono crops are also being similarly modified (so I've heard).  Unlike sprays which fade in effectiveness, these keep killing whatever touches them.  For all I know, which is almost nothing, this is a hoax on the level of chemtrails... but would love to know if it is a possible factor.  

John Miglautsch <><

Jo...@MigMar.com

262-369-3900

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[Betsy True]

Just checked my hives and they’re both doing ok, lots of eggs & brood. I haven’t been splitting tho. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 6, 2025, at 11:55 AM, J.R. Migs <jrm...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Joseph Bessetti]

I’m not seeing anything that resembles this.

Joe

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 6, 2025, at 10:17 AM, Greg V <voro...@gmail.com> wrote:

 Pretty much the nucs are just not growing for me and keep dwindling down.

--

[Jack Rademacher]

I’m in an area without much farming nearby (Driftless area) and I have already had 3 hives dwindle to nothing. Also, my larger hives are not producing honey like they have in the past. 

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[H. Adam Steinberg]

I’m up near Lodi, have one hive with three deeps (all full), and 5 supers (pretty much all full already). There are so many bees that they hang outside the hive at night even though the top is propped open.

And then, I just picked up a massive swarm in Middleton - and they are doing great.

I am surrounded by farm fields where they spray regularly. And I have a lake on one side. Doesn’t seem to be any problems here.

I work with our area farmers all the time, and what might be happening is one farmer near you is (or did the past) trying something different, whereas all of the other farmers are doing what they normally do. Or, perhaps a local farmer accidentally contaminated their normal chemicals with something else (that is harming your bees), or they sprayed something incorrectly when they shouldn’t have. Farmers are just regular people, and they too make mistakes and try out new things.

Adam

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[Greg V]

I would not necessarily point at the farms in this case.

This is not helpful even though it is a common theme.

One must realize that the "recreational"/residential pesticides are just as serious if not worse.

They are NOT regulated, just as potent and are sufficient to inflict enough damage.

In fact, the suburbia could be more polluted than the farms.
Some people disallow even a signal dandelion or a single mosquito on their properties - that is the reality.

Actually, I already contacted the City of Fitchburg just about that - someone (I assume the City) has been systematically going around and destroying all Sweet Clover patches in my area - both mechanically and chemically.
They posted a pesticide warning even behind my yard and destroyed a nice Clover patch I was so happy to have. 

Well - all torned up and sprayed with herbicides.

At other places along the running trails, the Clover patches wilted - a clear sign of chemical applications.

While the herbicides have no direct intent of killing the insects - does anyone know of the indirect impact on insects through the forage/pollen/nectar?

Would you want to have heavily used forage plants to be spayed with systemic herbicide in the middle of the bloom?

Who knows how much of the chemical ends up in the bees, hives, the honey/pollen?

Then we end up with the non-lethal concentration of that crud all over with unclear effect (and the never solved CCD-like things) - we are included in the food chain also, btw.

I am pretty annoyed right now.

G.

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[Greg V]

It is not good to hear, Jack.

But at least it is good that you confirm something very similar to what I am seeing - so the issue is not isolated to me only.

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[Greg V]

It is not necessarily about the splitting.

It is just more pronounced in the splits because they already start small.

I feel the issue is more about all and any locally overwintered colonies that got either infected or poisoned at very low levels starting last year - and now the same issue continue on.

Freshly caught swarms are doing well for me too.

But keep in mind - most freshly caught swarms are likely to have been recently imported (before they swarmed and got new owners).

They have not been exposed to our local phenomenon long enough yet.

But they will be - give it time.

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[Betsy True]

I had my hives dwindle last year. This year’s hives are both swarms. Seems to be fitting a pattern. 

Dwindling is a common issue for me. Would like to know why. 

On Aug 7, 2025, at 10:09 AM, Greg V <voro...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Greg V]

Yep. I agree with you, Mary.

Here is publicly known information of how bad is the residential pollution - it is worse than the farms (from quick google search):

Pesticides
Homeowners use between 70 million and 90 million pounds of pesticides annually on their lawns.
Herbicides (weed killers) account for the highest usage, with over 90 million pounds applied on lawns and gardens per year.
Suburban lawns and gardens receive a higher rate of pesticide applications per acre (3.2-9.8 lbs) than agricultural lands (2.7 lbs per acre on average).

On Thu, Aug 7, 2025 at 1:31 PM MARY FLANAGAN <mary.f...@comcast.net> wrote:

I have not responded because I have my hives (4) in Racine. Your post supports the issue I think I have: last year my neighbor treated heavily with herbicides. The drift took out my clover / bee balm patch. For the first time in four years, I had winter attrition. Also, my hives are not producing even close to as well as in past years. 

 

It's all anecdotal, I can't prove anything, but in my mind there is a connection.

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[Joseph Bessetti]

It is always hard to figure out things of this sort, but a couple thoughts: 1) Greg, are you seeing the same thing at different apiaries where the bees have different foraging zones? 2) What is similar for this season and last season, but was different for the prior years when you did not have this wasting phenomona? Here I’m wondering about management practices, treatments, feeds, weather, etc.

It is easy to speculate about pesticides, as they are everywhere. But because they are everywhere, you would expect other people in similar environment to be affected too. It’s is good that you asked what others are seeing, but your number of hives and two seasons in a row is hard to align with many other beekeepers.  Plus, what could have changed so dramatically between 2023 and 2024 in pesticide use? I have doubts that the answer lies here.

Do your bees have high mite loads? I recall that you had blamed mites for your high losses last year. 

Joe

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 7, 2025, at 1:59 PM, Greg V <voro...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[J.R. Migs]

How about this as a possible contributing factor?  Distance to cell towers.  https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=1070592141853130&set=a.502823238630026

John Miglautsch <><

Jo...@MigMar.com

262-369-3900

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[H. Adam Steinberg]

For those without Facebook, here are all of the relevant studies:

1. Authors conclusion of this study: 

   In summary, our findings support the notion that EMF can have direct negative impacts on pollination service by honeybees, with detrimental consequences on the seed output of insect-pollinated plant species and indirect negative impacts on plant community (abundance and richness)… ...Honeybees use electric fields for intraspecific (within hive) and interspecific (plant-pollinator) communication (9) and are able to detect the anthropogenic EMF, and their capacity for orientation, navigation, and foraging is being impaired, which would ultimately affect their health and survival (9, 28, 45).

   "Electromagnetic fields disrupt the pollination service by honeybees" - This 2023 study provides evidence of detrimental impacts of EMF from high-voltage towers on honeybee physiology, behavior, and pollination services, showing stress protein increases and impaired foraging near active towers.
   Link: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10181175/

2. Authors conclusion of this study: 

   The EMRs may harm the health of honey bee in the long run;

   however, the immediate and direct impact is yet need

   intensive research to draw a firm conclusion.”

   "Effect of electromagnetic radiation of cell phone tower on foraging behavior of Asiatic honey bee, Apis cerana" (2017) - This research studied Apis cerana colonies at varying distances from cell towers and found reduced foraging activity, brood area, honey stores, and queen egg-laying rates closer to the towers.
   Link: https://www.entomoljournal.com/archives/?year=2017&vol=5&issue=3&ArticleId=1986

3. Author’s conclusion of the study:

   ...our results indicated that exposure to RF-EMFs at a frequency of 900 MHz in field conditions may cause oxidative stress in certain developmental stages of honey bees. Most of the significant changes occurred in the second week of the exposure at the location with the highest electric field level, and there was no linear relationship between field level and effect in any of the developmental stages.

   "Oxidative Stress Response of Honey Bee Colonies (Apis mellifera L.) during Long-Term Exposure at a Frequency of 900 MHz under Field Conditions" (2024) - This study examined oxidative stress markers in honey bees after prolonged exposure to RF-EMF from base station antennas.
   Link: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11122567/

4. Author’s conclusion:

   ...existing studies show both negative and non-negative impacts of radiation.

   "Colony Collapse Disorder (CCD) in Honey Bees Caused by EMF Radiation" (2018) - Discusses the impact of cell phone towers and mobile handsets on honey bee colony health and behavior, including stress responses and colony development disruptions.
   Link: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6563664/

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[Greg V]

OK.

I have about 10 non-overlapping locations where the 2024/2025 results were very similar across most locations.

I do not count mites - instead I depend on strategic and low-intensity treatments and massive propagation - this typically resulted in at least 50% winter survival in the past, which is fine with me.

Surely, some colonies had high counts just by observation - those typically self-terminate at the end of summer or early fall.

Much less typical is for a successfully overwintered colony to just dwindle down and die off in June.

Pretty much it boils to the following:
- the colony dwindling issue - which is usually related to the mites and is more common in September/October with the seasonal mite and virus build-up
- in summer 2025 I observe this dwindling issue happening starting in June/July (very early!) - where ALL overwintered colonies and the splits made from the overwintered colonies are impacted

- so it seems to me this has to do with some toxicity and/or infection accumulated during the 2024 season that spilled over into the 2025 season

Why is the toxicity more likely?

Because it makes sense for the low-level toxicity intake to sip back into the spring brood from contaminated combs/bee bread and thus be more impactful as the colonies started spring development.

Why is the infection less likely?

Because it does not make as much sense - to me -  that the successfully overwintered bees somehow were more healthy than their spring and early summer descendants

On Thu, Aug 7, 2025 at 3:46 PM Joseph Bessetti <jbes...@hotmail.com> wrote:

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[Greg V]

I would not worry about cell towers - just another tangent that makes good news feed fodder to keep the audience occupied.

None of my bees are near the cell towers - at least for some miles for sure.

One needs to be virtually right under the tower to speak about it - well, no one will let you place the hives under a tower for obvious reasons anyway.

The elephant in the room always has been and remains to be - toxicity, parasites, and infections in various configurations.

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[Paul Zelenski]

Generally the second year is the time the mites are most destructive. It is extremely common for people to have hives that survive their first winter and then succumb to mites in the second summer without ever making it to late summer. If you are making splits that raise their own queens, the brood break should be some protection against mites, but if you’re splitting with a queen, the mite levels would remain high. 

Obviously toxicity is also a possibility, although in my experience bees seldom use last years pollen once they are bringing in new pollen, so it would inilely for them to recontsminate themaelves with the old pollen collected the year before. Obviously if the same source of toxicity were reapplied both years, it would be a good explanation. 

I used to see all queens in one do my yards site down in early August. Then I found out the field 10’ away was spraying the soybeans with insecticides by plane. I’m sure my hives were getting sprayed. 

On Aug 8, 2025, at 18:24, Greg V <voro...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Greg V]

In my case I only do brood-less splits anymore - at which point also I apply Oxalic acid.

Pretty much, brood-break + Oxalic over it is a very effective control.

Well, not this summer.

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[Joseph Bessetti]

Without any mite monitoring at all, and with last winter's high losses which you attributed to mites, and with a strategy that you say is "very effective control" but obviously didn't work out last year, and with hives in poor condition this year... I think you might want to do some mite checks.  It's easy to do, and if mites are high it gives you something to look more closely at.

The other thing that I recall from what you've shared over the last 4-5 years is that 3-4 years ago you obtained quite a few queens from Trevor (VSH) and you've been splitting those but not necessarily doing any selection for continued VSH expression.  I would be concerned that your success 3-4 years ago could be attributable to VSH rather than "very effective control" that you attribute to your oxalic acid treatments but never really confirmed.  After multiple splits of that stock and out-mating to the local population there is probably little VSH expression left, and your OA treatments aren't enough to keep the mites in check.  That's where my head would be right now anyway.  Perhaps there are details I'm not aware of.

Varroa is the #1 cause of colony losses, and in general, varroa, disease, and poor nutrition should generally be where we start our troubleshooting.  Rule out the high probability stuff first.  

Joe

---

From: mad...@googlegroups.com <mad...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Greg V <voro...@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, August 8, 2025 1:30 PM
To: mad...@googlegroups.com <mad...@googlegroups.com>
Cc: MARY FLANAGAN <mary.f...@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [madbees] Bees are still not doing well - post 2024.

 

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[Paul Zelenski]

Well said, Joe. 

On Aug 8, 2025, at 21:53, Joseph Bessetti <jbes...@hotmail.com> wrote:



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[John Thompson]

Any thoughts about accumulated toxicity in the combs being a possible contributor? 

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[Joseph Bessetti]

I’m not sure what would be in these combs that isn’t in everyone else’s combs. In the absence of synthetic mite treatments, and combs all less than ten years old, this wouldnt be high on my list of suspects.

Joe

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 8, 2025, at 4:51 PM, John Thompson <johntho...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Koelsch]

Greg, 

IMO it may be weather-related. The effects of excessive precipitation which persisted across spring right up to the heat wave we experienced two weeks ago should not be underestimated. 

We know that too much rain can suppress blooms, reduce pollen and nectar availability, with overcast skies reducing foraging. Perhaps a colony response to this is diminished egg laying/hesitation to expand?

I have four different apiaries across the state and typically see apparent regional influences. Yet this year I can pretty confidently state that the excessive rain we’ve experienced has negatively impacted my hives. 

Hoping for a warm, dry autumn. Who knew that after years of drought, too much rain could be a bad thing?

Best of luck, 

Kyle Koelsch 

On Wed, Aug 6, 2025 at 1:22 PM 'Betsy True' via madbees <mad...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

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[MARY FLANAGAN]

I have not responded because I have my hives (4) in Racine. Your post supports the issue I think I have: last year my neighbor treated heavily with herbicides. The drift took out my clover / bee balm patch. For the first time in four years, I had winter attrition. Also, my hives are not producing even close to as well as in past years. 

 

It's all anecdotal, I can't prove anything, but in my mind there is a connection.

On 08/07/2025 10:01 AM CDT Greg V <voro...@gmail.com> wrote:

 

 

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[trex raptor]

I agree with all of Joe's recommendations. I believe they are good places to start and easy to check off the list. I want to add two more things to the list. The first is that we had a cold May and then have been blasted with hot weather since the beginning of June continuously. My experience with using OA dribbling or vaping in hot conditions is that it is very hard on the bees and it's common to see a drop in colony population and production as a result. The second is having a reduced entrance on the colony during high heat. Typically I don't fully open colony entrances until late July. This season we followed our typical protocol and almost cooked a whole yard of bees by keeping the reducers in. Colony health and productivity were set back as a result. Once the entrance reducers were removed and the colonies could properly thermal regulate themselves, things began to return to normal after two weeks. Thankfully we caught the error this year by mid July. I imagine your mini nucs with a 3/4 hole would be roasting this season, even in the shade.

Trevor 

Lloyd St Bees 

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[Andrew Berna]

If you are questioning the toxicity of the comb it would be helpful to know how many seasons it has had brood in it as well as treatment types…

On this note though I have been removing very old brood comb from dead outs. 

Andrew Berna

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[Jack Rademacher]

I don’t disagree that weather is a contributor. Last year I harvested 73 gallons of honey. This year I’m hoping to get just a few gallons unless they really kick it in the butt for the golden rod flow but the golden rod flow is running late also. 

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[Greg V]

OK, I was double-checking my statements by actually dissecting the collapsed colonies.

Zero mites found after hand inspecting ALL capped brood from the collapsed colonies.

I stand by what I said - the mite control side was sufficiently effective.

This is not my first year beekeeping. :)

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[Joseph Bessetti]

Looking at this frame, I'd suspect that this colony was starving.  There are other frames in the hive of course.  Any stores?

Joe

---

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[Joseph Bessetti]

Are all of the affected colonies in Styrofoam coolers?  

Perhaps the heat this summer has been causing the styrofoam to outgas, leading to some toxicity.

Joe

---

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[Greg V]

This is a brood frame that I pulled for testing.

There are supply frames of course also.

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[Greg V]

No particular difference - wood or foam.

I have kept bees in foam for three years consistently with good results already - until 2024/2025.

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[Margaret Krome]

The potential for off-gassing is a worthwhile question to examine, for sure.  Just one data point, I know, but the hive I have in styrofoam is the most productive of all of my hives.
It would be good to hear from others.

mk

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Margaret Krome
Sustainable Agriculture Policy Consultant

(608) 628-2503

[Joseph Bessetti]

Greg, are 100% of your colonies affected?  If not, what is different about the ones that aren’t? 

Joe

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 23, 2025, at 7:12 AM, Margaret Krome <margare...@gmail.com> wrote:



The potential for off-gassing is a worthwhile question to examine, for sure.  Just one data point, I know, but the hive I have in styrofoam is the most productive of all of my hives.
It would be good to hear from others.

mk

On Thu, Aug 21, 2025 at 1:46 PM Joseph Bessetti <jbes...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Are all of the affected colonies in Styrofoam coolers?  

Perhaps the heat this summer has been causing the styrofoam to outgas, leading to some toxicity.

Joe

---

From: mad...@googlegroups.com <mad...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Greg V <voro...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2025 8:20 AM
To: mad...@googlegroups.com <mad...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [madbees] Bees are still not doing well - post 2024.

 

OK, I was double-checking my statements by actually dissecting the collapsed colonies.

Zero mites found after hand inspecting ALL capped brood from the collapsed colonies.

I stand by what I said - the mite control side was sufficiently effective.

This is not my first year beekeeping. :)

<20250819_211854.jpg>

<20250813_195835.jpg>

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[Joseph Bessetti]

I might also ask, how frequently are you spraying them with oxalic acid? It looks like you may have counted out brood from 100 cells and found zero mites. How many times are you hives treated per month to achieve this?

Joe

---

From: mad...@googlegroups.com <mad...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Greg V <voro...@gmail.com>

Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2025 8:20 AM
To: mad...@googlegroups.com <mad...@googlegroups.com>

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[Greg V]

What you see was dribbled *once* - upon creating a brood-less split.

Every new split (or a caught swarm) I dribble with OA exactly once - while they are brood-less.

Like I have been stating and I repeat the same - this is a very effective clean restart BUT not all bees can maintain this status afterwards.

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/madbees/CY5P221MB0928B291C870CB231ED5DBE3AE3BA%40CY5P221MB0928.NAMP221.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM.

[Greg V]

Most all overwintered colonies and their descendants by now have perished (one exception remaining).

Freshly caught swarms have done well initially, as expected - but as the summer closes this may be gradually changing for the worse.

One logical explanation is that the freshly homed swarms have been in contact with the same used combs which I kept in rotation - a function of duration of contact comes into play.

Like I have been saying, the mite situations are not an immediate concern.

Not it.

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[Paul Zelenski]

How old is that comb? The stuff in the picture looked very well used. I think many might have rotated that out by now. 

On Aug 28, 2025, at 9:06 AM, Greg V <voro...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Joseph Bessetti]

On the expectation that Greg has never used any of the "hard" miticides, it is hard for me to believe that the combs are the source of this problem unless it is something Greg specifically uses in his hives that other people do not or, as I suggested previously, the wax is absorbing something from the immediate local environment (i.e. off-gassing from Styrofoam).   The Styrofoam can be ruled out if there are other hives in the apiaries that are not in Styrofoam coolers and don't have combs that were previously exposed to Styrofoam.  

To my knowledge, no one else is experiencing the kind of massive collapse that is being described here.  His hives are spread out across enough locations that I have trouble believing that it could be from exposure to agricultural, lawncare, or other chemicals in the environment.

That basically leaves us with what Greg is putting in his hives. 

I inquired about the oxalic acid (OA) because the evidence suggests a declining adult bee population consistent with reduced adult lifespan.  Overdose of overuse of OA will do this.  

Were all of these hives fed syrup?  It would seem unusual for the adults to be impacted and the capped developing brood not, but if all the hives were fed, I'd have to consider it.

Joe

---

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Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2025 10:05 AM
To: mad...@googlegroups.com <mad...@googlegroups.com>
Cc: mad...@googlegroups.com <mad...@googlegroups.com>

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[Betsy True]

Reporting might be the issue here. Wesley, the queen supplier had significant dieback last winter anltho I’m not sure anbout establishing nucs this year. Another beekeeper has had similar failure to establish nucs (not divulging names). 

On Aug 28, 2025, at 11:09 AM, Joseph Bessetti <jbes...@hotmail.com> wrote:



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[Joseph Bessetti]

I would carefully differentiate someone else’s winter die off from Greg’s summer die off. When this kind of thing happens in summer it is quite unusual.  

Also, based on the capped brood in Greg’s image, I would say that they were quite well established, with mated queens, capped brood, etc.  Not sure about your other source, if they had trouble getting queens mated for example, I’d put that in a different category.

I’m not trying to be argumentative. I’d really like this to get sorted, so I’m looking at the information that has been shared and trying to see what it could align with. So far, we have rapid, unsustainable adult bee attrition post-queen establishment across multiple foraging locations mid-summer, not associated with Varroa infestation, seemingly isolated to one beekeeper.  If there are others seeing the same thing now it could be really helpful for them to share what they are seeing.  Could be as simple as a bad batch of wood bleach that might connect them up.

Joe

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 28, 2025, at 1:04 PM, 'Betsy True' via madbees <mad...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

 Reporting might be the issue here. Wesley, the queen supplier had significant dieback last winter anltho I’m not sure anbout establishing nucs this year. Another beekeeper has had similar failure to establish nucs (not divulging names). 

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/madbees/28C20587-1603-4DCA-9D0D-D061C35B3C2B%40wisc.edu.

[Jeanne Hansen]

No one is mentioning viruses.  They do mutate rapidly, and aren't confined to winter-kill.  When everything else is correctly in place, it could be viruses.  Sadly, none of us have the laboratories to test for viruses.

JEANNE

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Jeanne Hansen

824 Jacobson Ave

Madison,WI

608-244-5094

[Jeanne Hansen]

I do the same thing as Greg - Whenever I make a split, (or capture a swarm) I dribble once with oxalic acid while the hive is broodless.  When broodless, ALL the mites are phoretic (not hidden in cells), so the mite treatment is the most effective.

Joe asked  "It looks like you may have counted out brood from 100 cells and found zero mites. How many times are you hives treated per month to achieve this?"

When I first started keeping bees, I tested for mite religiously, all summer.  I found that there were no mites, no mites, no mites, right up until September.  What they say is true:  The bees build up faster than the mites.  Yes, there are mites in the hive, but always less than 1%, because the bee population is increasing so fast.

It is when the queens start to cut back on egg laying, AND when mites enter the hive riding bees from collapsing colonies, that the mite load begins to climb, namely during August and September.

Greg's colony under discussion died in July.  He is correct to claim it wasn't a mite problem.

Jeanne

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[Margaret Krome]

I don't have data or substance to add here, but I do want to underline the value of exactly this kind of careful teasing out of the variables that are at play to get at what one or ones are the likeliest culprits.  

Greg's inquisitive beekeeping has always interested and inspired me a lot, and I once again admire his scientific urge to bring forward a problem.  I similarly appreciate Joe's scientific sorting through possible variables, eliminating them one by one.  To be clear, Joe, I don't see your questions as being argumentative.  It's an excellent example of gathering data from the group as a whole to help sort through this (and I hope in the future, other) questions.

mk

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[Joseph Bessetti]

My rationale for asking the question has nothing to do with mite levels, even though I posed it that way.  I want to know how many times these colonies have been exposed to oxalic acid since they were established. OA treatment reduces adult bee lifespan. The single treatment though should have been fine. 

The mite population build-up in second year colonies is often quite different than for newly established packages.  It used to be the norm that quite few first year colonies started from packages would survive winter even without treatment. That aligns with testing for mites and often not seeing many until quite late in the season. However, in a colony’s second year the mite population would rise rapidly and one might start to see a lot of deformed wings in June. As early as July the colony might stop raising brood, and not long after that they will typically get robbed out. 

I presume that Greg’s colonies are largely splits from his overwintered stock. He had previously expressed challenges with mites and collapse of some colonies late last fall. It is not unreasonable to ask about mite levels mid-summer when colonies are struggling to thrive. I expected that Greg had this under control, as he did, but with mites broadly being the primary cause of colony loss, it is important to know for sure and check that off the list.

I write that it “used to be the norm” because the club apiary’s experience with packages has not played out that way.  My own mite testing of colonies established in May and sampled in July produced infestation rates of 1-3%. By late August many of these same colonies were in excess of 5-8%. These were late packages, yet mite levels were measurable just two months later. 

Joe

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 29, 2025, at 8:08 AM, Jeanne Hansen <jeanneh...@gmail.com> wrote:



I do the same thing as Greg - Whenever I make a split, (or capture a swarm) I dribble once with oxalic acid while the hive is broodless.  When broodless, ALL the mites are phoretic (not hidden in cells), so the mite treatment is the most effective.

Joe asked  "It looks like you may have counted out brood from 100 cells and found zero mites. How many times are you hives treated per month to achieve this?"

When I first started keeping bees, I tested for mite religiously, all summer.  I found that there were no mites, no mites, no mites, right up until September.  What they say is true:  The bees build up faster than the mites.  Yes, there are mites in the hive, but always less than 1%, because the bee population is increasing so fast.

It is when the queens start to cut back on egg laying, AND when mites enter the hive riding bees from collapsing colonies, that the mite load begins to climb, namely during August and September.

Greg's colony under discussion died in July.  He is correct to claim it wasn't a mite problem.

Jeanne

On Thu, Aug 28, 2025 at 8:56 AM Greg V <voro...@gmail.com> wrote:

What you see was dribbled *once* - upon creating a brood-less split.

Every new split (or a caught swarm) I dribble with OA exactly once - while they are brood-less.

Like I have been stating and I repeat the same - this is a very effective clean restart BUT not all bees can maintain this status afterwards.

On Thu, Aug 28, 2025 at 8:10 AM Joseph Bessetti <jbes...@hotmail.com> wrote:

I might also ask, how frequently are you spraying them with oxalic acid? It looks like you may have counted out brood from 100 cells and found zero mites. How many times are you hives treated per month to achieve this?

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/madbees/CY5P221MB0928B291C870CB231ED5DBE3AE3BA%40CY5P221MB0928.NAMP221.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM.

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608-244-5094

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[J.R. Migs]

Thanks Joe

John Miglautsch <><

Jo...@MigMar.com

262-369-3900

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[Greg V]

The pictured comb was no older than 3 years (most likely 2 years).

This is because my mini-colony project expanded to an appreciable scale 3 years ago.

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[Greg V]

If any off-gassing takes place - the most impacted cases would have been in the brand new Styrofoam boxes - this never happened.

As a matter of fact, my most successful seasons in Styrofoam boxes were based on new boxes.

The mass die offs took place in the seasoned and propolised Styrofoam boxes.

I would discount the off-gassing as a non-issue.

As far as the Oxalic drip - I also discount it. I have been using the Oxalic drip based on the vegetable glycerine for at least three years now (NO sugar).

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[Greg V]

Yes - this is exactly why I started the talk - trying to gauge how wide-spread IS the issue.

This is for the benefit of everyone.

But if people don't report the issue - we'll never know.

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[Greg V]

Indeed.

I NEVER had such early/mid summer die offs.

Late summer/fall die offs are more typical and generally attributed to the mites.

Not this case.

One other possibility maybe - for nuc creation I widely used the resources from my previous season dead-outs.

Specifically - last year bee-bread is part of this picture.

Low level toxicity of the bee bread maybe even a higher consideration than the comb contamination.

I even tried to approach the local WU Entomology department last year proposing to look at testing for the local pollen toxicity.

They ignored me. I did not insist.

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[Greg V]

OK, the viruses ...

My question to this is - how is it that the colonies overwinter and start proper spring development, AND then all of a sudden start dwindling and dying off in spring and summer?

Is it some sort of long-playing, dormant virus - that decided to wake up a few months later for some reason? 

Or do we now have viruses that survive on old combs? 

Dormant, out of live organism survival is not very common for viruses, to my knowledge - for the viral infection to be transmitted via old combs after several months of cold storage.

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[Greg V]

Greg's colony under discussion died in July.  He is correct to claim it wasn't a mite problem.

Jeanne

------------------------------------

Yes - I did several post-mortem inspections to factually state - found no mites. 

This question can be closed.

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[Greg V]

Just wanted to state that the deformed wing (DW) manifestation I have not seen for years (virtually I only see 2-3 bees for the entire season if that).

As far as my own observations go - the classic DW has not been an issue for several years, for me.

However, the non-visually obvious mutations of the DW virus could very well be present.

Or any other novel virus, for that matter.

As I mentioned already - Randy Oliver submitted samples of his own strangely collapsing colonies this summer (with zero mites) - stay tuned for what he reports back. 

I hope for the public results soon now.

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[Joseph Bessetti]

Absent varroa, the viruses aren’t generally an issue at all, at least not on the scale that you are having problems.  

Joe

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 2, 2025, at 11:33 AM, Greg V <voro...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Joseph Bessetti]

If the off-gassing is slow and chemicals build up in the wax, then it will present as toxicity from older combs that have been exposed longer.  This is the same mode as agricultural pesticide build-up in wax.

I’m not saying that’s it. I just don’t think you can rule it out yet from what I understand so far.

Given the lack of other beekeepers having anything resembling what you are experiencing, I think you really should be focused on the things you are doing that are different, even if you can’t yet explain it.

Joe

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 2, 2025, at 11:17 AM, Greg V <voro...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Greg V]

Never know.

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[Greg V]

I googled a bit - it seems that a possibility of virus transmission via the combs is not ruled out at all.

[Greg V]

The foam hives have been a staple in Europe for many decades now (same Styrofoam, just of different compression rates).

Now days you can purchase them in the US also, more and more common.

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[Greg V]

Though, indeed, by now the combs in my foam hives have built up the longest exposure (potential is always there).

[Joseph Bessetti]

My own research has suggested that there isn’t much that off-gasses out of styrofoam.  

My other line of thought is nutrition. Big colonies vs. micro.  We’ve had very different rain patterns these last two summers, but both can stress bees for pollen. Big colonies will generally ratchet back brood rearing in a pollen dearth, but new starts act like they’ve just swarmed out at the perfect time.  If there isn’t any bee bread in your declined colonies they could have been protein starved - which will substantially shorten the lives of adult bees, and I think it could cause what you’ve observed.

Joe

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 3, 2025, at 1:22 PM, Greg V <voro...@gmail.com> wrote:



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