S100 Vario and Hawk Settings

[David Anisman]

Here is a link to a folder containing photos of my S100 vario, indicator settings and sounds. This includes both the TE and Hawk settings.

I am still running firmware version 9.05 beta from last spring.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/5ae28RKnYfTC4RjA9

The ASW27 install was easy. The hardest part was replacing the 302 temperature probe in the nose with the S100's probe (same routing and location).

Leveling is a key step. But also straightforward - unless one encounters an offset issue with the firmware. I did not encounter any leveling issues with the 9.05 beta firmware.

Following the instructions in the ASW27 manual - and some basic trigonometry - I raised the tail boom to 3 degrees down from level - measuring with the iPhone's leveling app - at a point ~2500 mm back from the wing's leading edge at the root.

One thing that I wondered when I looked at my settings was the choice of Relative for the Vario (climb) mode. Both TE and Hawk share the same choice in each Vario (climb) and SC (cruise) modes. I was puzzled by that choice then I saw that's what the manual recommends doing when using Hawk. I don't know the reason for this recommendation. I'm not sure that's what I want. I'll try Vario instead next flight.

For the SC mode the manual recommends Netto when using Hawk. But I prefer Relative.

Feel free to add your own install experience and settings to this thread to assist others find potential issues with their installations.

David

[Morgan Hall]

My V8 is on its way back from Slovenia after needing to return for calibration.  

I installed a borrowed V8 and leveled the glider.  I reset the wind variance to the manual recommended .11.  It's dumb to me that the default on installing Hawk is .20, but the recommended value is .11. I flew Wednesday in a different glider with the variance set at .20 because I hadn't checked it after installing the demo license.  I did not like that setting in jumbled convergence air.

Anyhow, with the V8 leveled and the wind variance at .11 I found the Hawk very good in Saturday's blue convergence conditions. Vario indications were still optimistic over my achieved climb, but only by 1-2kts. Sounds set at 400-1100 gives me appropriate audio feedback to my achieved climb. Gust filtering compared to the red TE needle was dramatic and working well. Even on a few thermals that the gusts "felt" real in the seat of the pants and sent the TE needle swinging, the blue needle and the altimeter remained steady.  

I flew past one thermal and was able to watch the winds swing in real time pointing at the thermal.  Turned with the winds and followed them straight to the core and 5kts. That's impressive. 

My V8 should be back on Tuesday and then next time at the glider I will swap it out and level once again.  Overall the round trip to Slovenia with the repair is coming in at about 2 weeks  total time and costing about $300.  $150 of that is shipping by having LX send a DHL label and schedule a pickup.

Morgan

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[David Anisman]

Morgan, what setting are you using for the vario needle in climb mode (they call it Vario mode)?

The last 3 flights I tried different settings.

Mainly, changed the needle setting in climb mode (Vario) from Relative to Vario. For some unclear reason the manual recommends Relative for this but to me it doesn't make sense (although I did fly it like that in 2022). Changing to Vario I observed even less variance between the Hawk reading and the true climb rate to the point that I don't really consider it a factor at the moment (notice that this is a qualitative observation anyways as we are trying to roughly compare two values that are being integrated over different time frames in a different way). To me it just makes more sense for Hawk to deduct from its vertical wind estimate a calculated polar-derived sink rate based on actual real-time flying conditions rather than a polar-derived fixed value (min sink rate). And for TE it is simply the direct value.

If anyone knows what the reasoning is for the manual's recommendation please share.

All other settings will stay the same for now, as I didn't notice any material improvement otherwise.

Next I will try flying with just the Hawk needle (dropping the TE). Relative in cruise, Vario for climb.

David

C6

[Philip Lee]

In rev. 52 of the 90xx manual, I see

8.7.6 Graphical display
It is recommended to set following display options, when using HAWK system.
In Setup>Graphics>Indicator set both needles to be visible. Set blue needle for HAWK values and red needle for TEK values. Set vario needle type to vario or relative and SC needle type to netto or relative.

However, I can see the use case for relativ mode for vario based on the way HAWK is calculating the traditional vario output. See table under 8.7.3. HAWK directly calculates netto. In order to arrive at the achieved climb rate, it subtracts off the estimated sink rate at the given IAS and bank. This means two things. First, it may be different that what the TEK vario says, since the TEK measures climb rate directly. Second, it means the needle is going to move whenever you change bank or airspeed. If you're trying to center the thermal, you do not want this.

I wish it was possible to set the HAWK needle to relative and have the TEK needle in vario mode at the same time. That would mean I'd see my optimal climb rate on the HAWK without any disturbance from changing bank/speed, and I'd see the actual climb rate (plus gusts and other crap) on the TEK needle.

-Philip

[Morgan Hall]

David, I use vario for climbing and Relative for cruising.  This is what earlier versions of the manual recommended and was how I was set for the TEK prior to installing Hawk. 

With my V8 back from Slovenia with new memory, it definitely works better.  So a misaligned ahrs is something to fix if that ever happens. 

But I still see inconsistency in Hawk performance at times. Not just inconsistent reporting against the TEK.  I can fairly easily ignore that now that I have tuned the audio down, but in jumbled weak convergence thermals I’ve had the Hawk very excited about the lift and indicating up to half scale deflection and yet achieved climb is nearly zero without seeing hawk values in the extreme negative.  

I have had this happen probably 5 times now.  Where I am working a thermal low (1000-1500agl) and really only using the audio with the occasional glance at the needle.  After a few turns and chasing the core the average annunciation starts calling out averages and it is like .1 or .2kts.  

The interesting bit is that the TEK needle is swinging fairly wildly in these cases.  From several kts positive to several negative.  So I think it is picking up the right average behavior of the thermal, but due to integration and response time it is just out of sync with what your butt feels. 

I think the last time I was experiencing this I tried restarting Hawk, but that didn’t really make much of a difference.  

Maybe I have experienced the scenario Philip outlined of chasing a core with bank angle changes resulting in corresponding changes to the vario output and I am just in a negative feedback loop.  These have all been cases of not very good thermals, but of course there are times when you find yourself low and needing a climb and taking what you can get even if for just a couple hundred feet and usually that is where you really need things to work.  

I’m sure it doesn’t help that I’m flying two different gliders with massively different characteristics. Discus A versus a Duo.  And I need to make sure I’ve kept the settings updated on both. So that is another point of inconsistency to manage. 

Morgan 

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[David Anisman]

Thanks for your comment.

This is the section in the S100 manual I was referring to (highlight mine). Only the recommendation for SC appears in the 90XX manual as far as I can tell. I'm currently not following either one of these recommendations (and neither is Morgan).

The use case you mention is interesting. I think that with enough development, Hawk has the potential to better TEK in every way. Furthering your line of thought, there is nothing to prevent the display of two needles which are both Hawk-based but one is Vario and the second Relative. My impression so far is that it is has been easier for me to find cores and center thermals with Hawk than with TEK, due to fade and surges in the TEK needle possibly induced by air turbulence in the thermal prompting the pilot to enter incorrect control inputs.

David

[David Anisman]

Morgan, have you noticed the same behavior in both the gliders you fly?

Considering the wild swings in the TEK needle there may be something else going on as well. I don't think you have a backup vario in your panels anymore to compare it with.

Chasing a thermal core with bank angle changes should not cause this, as that's exactly what we have been doing for decades with our TE varios.

I have noticed that TEK tends to fade and surge more than Hawk (and around it). Hawk seems to be more stable and more consistent with the normal inertia of the glider and butt feel. So I am assuming that what I thought was normal before with TE, now looks more like the effects of gusts inside the thermal. Previously there was just nothing to compare it to. TEK feels definitely noisier and laggy. Hawk feels like a filtered TEK but without the lag.

I do still have a Borgelt backup in the panel, so can do some comparisons to see if I see anything unusual there.

David