Controlling Lighting with DMX Dimmers

[Peter]

There's a number of threads discussing DMX dimming, but you have to read them all to harvest all the information and there's probably a lot more out there that hasn't been posted!

I'm hoping this thread will herd all those ideas, experiences and advice into one place.

Since I've started reading this forum and it's brilliant by the way, I've certainly started to expand my own horizons and slowly moving away from everything must be Loxone and everything must be in an enclosure. For that I'm certainly grateful to the regular posters.

Anyway, whilst i was previously loather to use anything other than Loxone, I 'm now wondering why I would, especially when it comes to DMX drivers. A Loxone driver costs £68 with 4 channels whilst this one:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/DIN-808-8CH-DMX-PWM-Decoder-DC12-24V-input-3A-8CH-Max-24A-output/32618031723.html

costs £48 and has 8 channels (posted previously by the way by Seb i think)

I've also been thinking about dimming mains voltage in various areas, probably more than 4 rooms and I'm horrified at the cost of a Loxone Extension dimmer at nearly £400 (4 channels)

Why would I pay all that when DMX302 high voltage drivers can be used instead (3 channels) suggested by Duncan 

https://kutop.com/high-voltage-input-3-channels-triac-dmx-dimmer.html

Am I missing something?

Please feel free to add any other suggestions etc.

[David Lancini]

Nope, you're not missing anything really.

DMX is an old(ish) technology, that just works. The standard actually allows for 512 channels of control per "stream" of DMX, but for some reason Loxone even limit their DMX extension to 128 channels.

I'm from an entertainment industry background and we use DMX daily for control of lighting on shows. There's a wealth of choice, so just find something that works for your application.

David

[Andrew B]

I concur with David.  Using DMX, a widely used standard protocol, gives you a wealth of options both on the generating side and on the receiver side.  So if one day you replace the Loxone with something else, you can still retain your devices.  And because you can daisy-chain devices you get huge flexibility and configurability.  Once I realized this and saw the wide range of possibilities, it was really a no-brainer.

I applied the same principle to my wall switches too.  "Smart switches" are horrifyingly expensive and most lock you into a proprietary protocol (KNX doesn't but they are basically non-existent in North America).  So simple dry contact switches meant I could use a wide variety of I/O devices (I chose Elexol), and then leverage Ethernet to connect the cost-effective I/O device to the Loxone... instead of their very high cost-per-pin extensions.

[Rob_in]

Much as I find this group useful, you highlight one of the problems of a purely forum based system. IHMO it would be incredibly useful to have a Wiki to summarise information discussed here.

There is a German langauge Wiki here: http://www.loxwiki.eu/ but it doesn't really seem to have much information on third party products. I notice there is a request to setup English language space on the 'Rules' page but no follow up. I have created an account and sent the admin a message.

I'd love to see a simple table listing hardware experiences with Loxone. Ie. a section listing various DMX dimmers people have tried, links to the manufacturer, where to buy, approximate cost, brief description of user experience and picture. Naturally, being a Wiki there could be a page for each device to share more information if required. Naturally the list would hopefully expand beyond DMX, it's just an example.

Robin

[Rob_in]

Does anyone know the PWM frequency of this Ltech DIN-808 model? I have seen complaints about flicker with other drivers in this group so am interested to factor that into the selection process. I looked at their documentation (http://ltech-led.eu/en/dmx/1605-din-rail-dmx-decoder-8x3a.html) but it's not specified.

On Thursday, 8 December 2016 23:17:53 UTC+1, Peter wrote:

[Rob_in]

Well.... I wrote to the European Ltech distributor who told me:

The PWM frequency of al our DMX drivers are now  2KHz, currently updating it to 4Khz. 

[Duncan]

they did have a statement about upto 850hz on some of their dmx drivers on the world-wide web site

[Duncan]

until a couple of years ago, when they started to push their installers into 'loxone only' configurations, loxone used to recommend using dmx where lots of light dimming was required. over time they have removed their support for individuals and discouraged connecting hardware that reduces your purchases of loxone hardware, such as dimmers, io devices etc.

although its frustrating that the loxone dmx extension only does 128 devices, you can use 2 or more extensions if you have more devices. there is some logic to this however, as the dmx packet frame is variable in length, and the more devices you have the longer the frame takes to transmit - keeping to 128 devices allows dmx devices to be updated at a faster refresh rate and most installs with some rgbw strip wont be anywhere near the limit.

[njamessimpson]

Robin - fully agree, would be great to have a central point where people share successes for various components used to complement Loxone (DMX etc). Data exists as many people are kind enough to post their views but not centrally. Can we upload an excel spreadsheet or similar that people can add to?

[Joakim Arfvidsson]

Just saw this and restating what I mentioned in a different thread.

Best value dimmer bar none: http://www.shop.dmx4all.de/en/dmx4all-products/led-dimmer/dmx-led-constant-voltage-dimmer/DMX-LED-Dimmer-X9HR.html

244 Hz - 4 kHz, 10 A per channel, 9 channels. Control it using 2 dmx channels per output channel (good luck setting that up in Loxone, but I do think it's possible using some custom logic), or download a custom curve to it using their programming cable.

Note the 16 bit mode is only available for 244 Hz.

[RSin]

I know its been said in a few places that you can but has anyone implemented more than 1 dmx extension?

What is the maximum number of DMX channels people have had running reliably?

On Friday, 9 December 2016 10:31:46 UTC, Duncan wrote:

"...the loxone dmx extension only does 128 devices, you can use 2 or more extensions if you have more devices..."

[Joakim Arfvidsson]

I have 2 extensions. I use about 80 channels on each. Loxone limits you to the channel range 1-128, ie not the full 512 channels of DMX.

I have problems with reliability but I don't yet know why. The symptom is intermittent blinking of lights. It is not a power supply issue. Next I'm going to try and replace my cat5 with a shielded cable, and tighten up the connectors.

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[Duncan]

i have 2 dmx extensions - 1 is maxed out with all 128 channels being used, the other running around 110 channels.

i have used cheap aliexpress dmx splitters for both extensions with unscreened cat5 cabling which allows a larger branched structure, with branches in the house and extening into multiple areas of the garden and  have a completely reliable install.

[Joakim Arfvidsson]

So you've used active splitters? (ie they're receiving and re-broadcasting)

On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at 2:26 PM, Duncan <joanne...@gmail.com> wrote:

i have 2 dmx extensions - 1 is maxed out with all 128 channels being used, the other running around 110 channels.

i have used cheap aliexpress dmx splitters for both extensions with unscreened cat5 cabling which allows a larger branched structure, with branches in the house and extening into multiple areas of the garden and  have a completely reliable install.

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[Stuart]

I am looking to use Loxone for my new built house in the UK. I don't have much experience in terms of electrics and home automation, so I will have an electrician doing the installation work involving 240v.

Can someone help me please with the following questions based on using only warm white light?

1: If I was to buy 1 of these https://kutop.com/high-voltage-input-3-channels-triac-dmx-dimmer.html does this mean I can only connect 3 LED downlights to it, one on each channel? Or can I connect 3 individual lighting circuits to each channel?

2: How do I calculate the max wattage of LED bulb(s) I can have per channel?

3: What sort of downlights would you recommend that I use with the DMX dimmer?

4: Other than the Loxone equipment, the DMX controller and LED downlight(s) is there any other hardware that would be required?

[Skarsol]

1: One circuit per channel.

2: That dimmer says 220 watts at 220 volts per channel.

3: I'm not in the UK, so can't recommend here.

4: Assuming you're using Loxone for the switching, no.

[Kevp]

1. I'm sure I have read on here people having issues with reliability with those cheap dimmers. Have a look to see if you can find some better dmx triac dimmers.
Otherwise use the Loxone dimmers if you can afford them, They are expensive but I have never had any issues after using 25 of them and I think the saying you get what you pay for rings true.

2 & 3. Personally I think GU10's work best, get a cheap fire rated fitting and a decent bulb. You can buy a few different lights and test them and see which one you like the most.
Working out how many lights you can have is simple: Dimmer output wattage / Bulb wattage = Number of lights.

[Stuart]

Would something like this be better?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Channel-Dimmable-Voltage-100-240VAC-voltage/dp/B071WLG5W4/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?ie=UTF8&qid=1533219508&sr=8-1-spons&keywords=dmx%2Btriac%2Bdimmer&th=1

[Duncan]

just to point out, the name traic dimmer is incorrect - triacs are only used in leading edge dimmers that dont play nicely with led bulbs generally - the dmx302 is named incorrectly and uses mosfets rather than triacs and it is trailing edge so does work nicely with led bulbs

the 2 channel dimmer from amazon has a very poor dimming characteristic, and flickers a lot with all sorts of bulbs that otherwise dim easily with other dimmers - dont waste your money and time.

the chinese 3 channel dimmer dmx302 dim well, but have some reliability issues and seem to stop work often when the power is cut/restarted.

loxone dimmers work out at £105 per channel and take up a lot of space in your cabinet.

the cheapest way to get very good quality dimming that works with led mains dimmable bulbs, is reliable and compact is the knx dimmer Theben DM 8-2 T KNX

https://www.theben.de/en/dm-8-2-t-knx-4940285

these can be controlled directly from a miniserver with only a knx power supply

8 channels of 200w max per channel of led 240v lighting

6 din slots wide (loxone dimmer is 9 wide)

these are around £700 in the uk, but can be bought from germany for around £450, so around £56 per channel.

https://www.idealo.de/preisvergleich/OffersOfProduct/5552368_-dm-8-2-t-knx-theben.html

[John Verdicchio]

See https://www.gear4music.com/PA-DJ-and-Lighting/NJD-DPX12-4-12-Channel-DMX-Lighting-Dimmer-Pack/NSY

I have 2 of these running mainly dimmable GU1O LEDs. No flicker, no problems. £18/channel.

[RSinn]

You may have thought about it but don't just scattergun spots everywhere. If you can try and get to a lighting show. Also if you are good with software/CAD get a copy of dialux. You can build a model of your lighting. It helps to highlight any dark spots, or create them for mood.

Try using indirect light by hiding led strip in plastered alcoves that fire up that bounce down from the ceiling, much more pleasant light. Putting spots close to walls rather than in a grid gives a nice triangle of light down the wall or tilted onto a picture gives more purpose. If using led strip don't forget the extruded aluminium profile. This does 2 things: a heat sink and the frosted perspex diffuses the led dots into a bar of light (these dots are 'cheap looking' to the lighting designers). Buy from AliExpress, it's waaaaay cheaper than here.

If you want to get really fancy think about circadian rhythms (why your laptop/phone goes orange at night). So you have high Kelvins with bluer light in the morning to make you feel lively (high sun) moving to warmer whites in the evening (sun moving to sunset) to get your brain ready to sleep.

[Stuart]

Thank you for the help and advice.

[Joakim Arfvidsson]

Think about total lumens in the room. In my small bedrooms with white walls, 4000 lumens is perfect for when you need it bright. 

On Fri, Aug 3, 2018 at 6:35 AM, 'Stuart' via Loxone English <loxone-...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Thank you for the help and advice.

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[Simon Still]

On Thursday, 2 August 2018 13:01:09 UTC+1, Stuart wrote:

I am looking to use Loxone for my new built house in the UK. I don't have much experience in terms of electrics and home automation, so I will have an electrician doing the installation work involving 240v.

Can someone help me please with the following questions based on using only warm white light?

1: If I was to buy 1 of these https://kutop.com/high-voltage-input-3-channels-triac-dmx-dimmer.html does this mean I can only connect 3 LED downlights to it, one on each channel? Or can I connect 3 individual lighting circuits to each channel?

I fitted one of the DMX302 dimmers and would avoid using again.  It's coming up to 3 years old now and has been replaced once after failing.   

My experience of it - 

Channel 1 dimming a single LED GU10 bulb in an uplight that has noticable flicker.

Channel 2 controls is only used at full brightness for a 2 bulb outside circuit so flicker not  noticable.

Channel 3 has 3 GU10's over the dining table. Flicker not noticable.

Main issue is the flicker seems to cause premature bulb failures (or at least with the expensive Phillips bulbs i was using).  I've had 3 or 4 fail since install and replaced under warranty but the supplier was obviously not used to that failure rate and was asking what i was dimming them with.  

[RSinn]

Duncan, do you have a link to your reliable AliExpress dmx splitter? Thanks in advance.

[Duncan]

I used this manufacturer
https://m.aliexpress.com/item/1473875731.html?pid=808_0000_0101&spm=a2g0n.search-amp.list.1473875731

They have internal psu, Ethernet and bare wire connectors for the dmx

[Duncan]

Also this one
http://www.srslight.sk/DL/lighting/product/121/dsd6-din

Dim mounted, compact but more expensive and difficult to source

[RSinn]

Thanks 😁