Does Matter Matter

[Toby Mills]

When you scroll through the huge list of home automation companies that are a member of the Matter alliance, the glaring omission is Loxone and I'm wondering what everyone thinks about this.

Matter is shaping up to be one of the most important developments in the home automation front and the fact that Loxone does not seem to be on board is certainly worrying to me.

Do others think this is a big deal?

Toby

[Simon Still]

No.  Not at first.  This is what matters for Loxone right now - https://library.loxone.com/ 

Matter is yet another 'one standard to rule them all' after a load of others have failed.  If it works Loxone can pick up on it (or bridge across to it) then  - or someone else will develop a bridge.  

https://www.wired.com/story/what-is-matter/

The first specification, or Matter 1.0, covers only certain categories of devices, including:

Light bulbs and switches
Smart plugs
Smart locks
Safety and security sensors
Media devices including TVs
Smart blinds and shades
Garage door controllers
Thermostats
HVAC controllers

[Rafael Millan]

I agree, right now Matter companies are riding the marketing wave. Most just sell devices. Loxone is an entire system and as such the long term viability is important. V1.0 is too early to consider as part of a professional installation.

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[Rob_in]

On Tuesday, 17 January 2023 at 01:28:23 UTC+1 mil...@np.co.nz wrote:

...I'm wondering what everyone thinks about this.

If it needs an internet connection to be configured or to work I'm not interested. So no, Matter doesn't matter to me :)

[BartVB]

Matter is a connectivity protocol using IPv6 (over Thread (zigbee like), wifi, UTP) between local devices. You can set them up with QR codes or Bluetooth-LE, no internet connection needed if you don't need remote access. If you want to control the devices remotely you would need some kind of hub or gateway between Matter and the outside world.

If you ask me; yes, Matter matters, but I don't think that Loxone cares. Their Config software is great, their integration with the rest of the world is mediocre at best. It's not even possible to properly control Hue lights from a Loxone miniserver, but that seems to be a strategic decision by Loxone. They want to keep things in their ecosystem (Loxone extensions, Loxone Tree devices) as much as possible and Matter definitely doesn't fit into that strategy.

So is Matter going to be a big thing in IoT/home automation? I think it will with all the large players backing it. But I don't expect Loxone to hop on board any time soon (if at all).

Bart

[g...@camleyphotographic.com]

Over IP… which means you either need a wifi connection, or a wired network.

 

Are there yet any low power alternative to the ESP8266 chip?

 

The current ESP8266 is a small wifi chip that is the basis of most inexpensive IoT devices. They will generally consume 1W. This is far too much for a battery device. It also mounts up when you have 10+ or 100+ devices in a home.

 

Best wishes, George

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[BartVB]

Almost everything that can communicate data can also transmit IP. The 'Thread' protocol is used as a medium for Matter (IP) and Thread is very Zigbee like. I.e. it's a wireless protocol that's made for battery powered devices.

So for Matter it's UTP, Wifi or Thread that's needed for connectivity.

Regarding ESP devices; the power usage strongly depends on usage, especially if you keep communication active the whole time. See for example:
https://www.instructables.com/ESP8266-Pro-Tips/

Approximately half a day on 3 AA batteries with Wifi enabled the whole time, 342 days when using sleep mode most of the time. 

[Jonathan Dixon]

On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 at 13:04, gck via Loxone English <loxone-...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Over IP… which means you either need a wifi connection, or a wired network.

 

... or Thread. (Originally created by Nest for the thermostat link to base station, bit of a surprising winner in the never ended wireless protocol wars).

Thread (IMS band, zigbee like)  should be lower power than wifi. But surely still higher lifetime overhead than KNX / tree. (both because wireless, and because needing battery install and maintenance)

 

Are there yet any low power alternative to the ESP8266 chip?

I don't know what Thread-native microcollers exist, but surely there will be many more launching soon.

The thing I see as missing is a PoE version of ESP8266. This should be possible at lower power and much smaller footprint than current offerings. 

"Matter over UTP" sounds like a placeholder proposal for now, details of making that work efficiently, interoperably, cost effectively and at scale in the industry will need some work, and that's where I think involvement of manufacturers of robust BMS solutions (rather than consumer gadgets) could offer a lot. (perhaps that work is already going on; I can't see their closed forums)

 

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[g...@camleyphotographic.com]

>> PoE version of ESP8266

 

That would be brilliant! Especially if the chip was a pound or so.

 

I tried to work out what goes on in POE and how the splitter works, and utterly failed. I bought a TP-Link POE splitter to try to work out how I could make a device that would deliver 24V . The TP-Link splitter only provides 5V to 12V, despite POE being around 48V.  I did not get anywhere and gave up.

 

I see that broadbandbuyer.com are selling TP-Link splitters for under £10, which is good. When I was researching a couple of years ago they were £25ish.

 

Best wishes, George

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[Simon Still]

And that seems completely sensible - Loxone really isn't a DIY/retrofit solution - their market is proper 'whole house' installs.  I'm somewhat surprised at the degree of integration they offered historically with third party hardware that would reduce the use of Loxone stuff in an install.  KNX being the case in point - which they've addressed by making KNX a separate  and expensive optional extra.  I think theres a lot of value in them integrating things that customers might logically add after their main install, but (and maybe Im in the minority here) but colour change lights are very much a 'just because you can doesn't mean you should' for me.  The only place I think coloured lights don't look tacky is in a garden.  

[Rob_in]

On Thursday, 19 January 2023 at 10:29:28 UTC+1 BartVB wrote:

...no internet connection needed...

... in theory. Let's see if anyone actually makes a device that just magically works just by powering it on when you get home.

 

...I don't think that Loxone cares. Their Config software is great...

That's a matter of opinion. You should see the number of bug reports I've raised. I wish there was a non-GUI alternative. I wish they had a better QA.

 

... their integration with the rest of the world is mediocre at best...

Agreed.

 

So is Matter going to be a big thing in IoT/home automation?

It will (erm... might if everyone plays nice) be great for people who think 'home automation' means being able to turn on their bedside lamp with a voice control of their phone ;)

Robin 

[Techdoctor]

No. 

I think this cartoon says it all  https://xkcd.com/927/

I remember when ZWave first hit the scene this was going to be the standard, and almost at the same time we had Zigbee saying the same thing

And who remembers PLCbus which was supposed to have agreements with  Philips, Microsoft, IBM, KPN, Nokia, Motorola, Hewlett Packard, Dell, Siemens and Intel plus a few others.