Miniserver Gen 2 benefits

[Simon Still]

I'm starting to see more things I want to do that are Gen 2 only 

- Siri

- wireless blind integration 

are there any other benefits of the Gen 2 that I can help use sell myself it?  Looks like it's' an £800+ upgrade cost if I can sell on the Gen 1 unit so quite an expense.

[Ewan Tait]

The features that I've seen that are Gen 2 only are:

- Secure remote connection to the Miniserver

- Siri

- Home Connect

- Miele@Home

- Hunter Douglas Powerview

I use the first two (with the secure connection easier than using a VPN).

The Miniserver is also more powerful.

Cheers,

Ewan

 

[Scott F]

I'm not sure how it is £800 + as Loxone are selling them for £729 inclusive of VAT when buying direct although that is still not cheap. Anyone selling them for more is just marking them up for extra profit. I had this discussion with Loxone when they had the spell where they stopped selling direct and they told me they would never remove the pricing from their website even if you could not buy it direct so that the end customers always knew what the true cost of the hardware should be. I didn't realise how much they had gone up in price in the last couple of years. I think I paid £585 including VAT for mine a couple of years ago so that is 25% increase already. I know they are available cheaper in europe so i guess we have covid, Russia and Brexit to blame for the high prices now. I guess if you are not using the digital output contacts on your current one you could go with the miniserver compact and save a bit. I think the Apple Homekit support is a big selling point if you are into the whole Apple ecosystem and want to use the apple Homekit app instead of the loxone one for day to day control.

[Rob_in]

On Tuesday, 17 January 2023 at 10:27:34 UTC+1 Simon Still wrote:

I'm starting to see more things I want to do that are Gen 2 only 

While I can kindof see the advantage of sticking with a single vendor (Loxone) for ease of use, as soon as you stray from that vendor all bets are off IMHO.

That is to say if anyone is looking at upgrading to a Gen 2 purely for 3rd party integrations then I don't see the advantage over any number of other solutions.

Take voice assistants for example - Siri, Google Assistant, etc. You can integrate these via a Raspberry Pi or similar which is much, much cheaper than a Miniserver and also far more powerful than even the MS Gen 2.

Just my 2c.

Robin

[Simon Still]

Over £800 because I use the Analogue outputs that are omitted from the Gen2 (so need a 252+VAT AO extension as well).  

I'd not clocked that the HomeKit meant you could use the HomeKit app.  Limit of 149 "objects" and a lot of set up.  would be interested to know if anyone thought it was actually a better interface? I guess it means you can have 'scenes' that include HomeKit stuff you can't integrate directly into Loxone in some way but it feels more likely to be an additional interface rather than a replacement.  

[Simon Still]

I'm looking at wireless blinds and we've already got (manual) Luxaflex so the Hunter Douglas Powerview is the appeal. I really don't want to add a RPi to the support and maintenance.  

[Jonathan Dixon]

Few  more benefit of gen2 MS:

- supports HTTPS/TLS outgoing connections

- tends to get new features sooner, or less buggy (e.g. the Energy Flow monitor had bugs on gen1 when first released)

--- as this is where Loxone's development effort is surely focused going forward, I expect over time we'll only see this functionality & finesse gap grow.

If/when I upgrade, fwiw, rather than sell the gen1 I'd consider keeping it and segment the installation across them both. I'd use Gen2 for heavier weight UI/metrics work and external cloud integrations, and keep the gen1 for KNX, Analog ins, and running enough logic for keeping a bunch of lights working even if the gen2 died. I've never done a multi-miniserver install though, so the reality of the failover support may not meet my expectations on this! 

Also FWIW - I take the other point about using non-vendor specific RhPi or NUC alternatives. I have some of that now, and honestly find it the least enjoyable part of maintaining my installation. In reality, even though my roof window, ASHP, security camera and traccar integrations are all implemented in an open platform, if I ever abandoned Loxone it would be a giant upheaval to rewrite all the automation/control logic for those things (never mind every light, switch and motion sensor in the house) that "future proofing" my install now by doing a few nice-to-have enablers live outside of the Loxone universe feels a misplaced priority for me, personally.

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[Simon Still]

On Wednesday, 18 January 2023 at 10:52:11 UTC Joth wrote:

If/when I upgrade, fwiw, rather than sell the gen1 I'd consider keeping it and segment the installation across them both. I'd use Gen2 for heavier weight UI/metrics work and external cloud integrations, and keep the gen1 for KNX, Analog ins, and running enough logic for keeping a bunch of lights working even if the gen2 died. I've never done a multi-miniserver install though, so the reality of the failover support may not meet my expectations on this! 

I'd forgotten that was an option.  If your'e using KNX then it's no contest - the knx extension is almost as much as the miniserver cost you (they're £640 inc VAT), and actually I'd be unlikely to be able to sell the Gen 1 for more than the AO extension is going to cost.   

But I don't use KNX, I don't think I'm in any way limited by processing power of the gen 1 (I do minimal logging etc) so a dual install just feels like it would add complexity for little benefit.  I can't see that any splitting of control between the 2 servers would give redundancy that would be useful (half the lights in the house not working is only helpful if it's half in each room). (Ah - power supply and back up**).  The miniserver compact might have made sense if it was a lot cheaper than the full unit, but it isn't and I need all the inputs and outputs on the full unit.  (I could use the built in Air on the compact but I've located my air base remotely from the miniserver to give best reception across the house) .

* https://shop.loxone.com/enuk/power-supply-backup.html Wow.  missed this launch, potentially really useful but not something I can see you'd use as an upgrade.  Expensive, but would make senes if you ran all your lighting off it . Though you'd potentially end up with some *long* 24v cable runs compared to locating power supplies closer to the things they run,. 

[Simon Still]

On Wednesday, 18 January 2023 at 10:52:11 UTC Joth wrote:

Also FWIW - I take the other point about using non-vendor specific RhPi or NUC alternatives. I have some of that now, and honestly find it the least enjoyable part of maintaining my installation. In reality, even though my roof window, ASHP, security camera and traccar integrations are all implemented in an open platform, if I ever abandoned Loxone it would be a giant upheaval to rewrite all the automation/control logic for those things (never mind every light, switch and motion sensor in the house) that "future proofing" my install now by doing a few nice-to-have enablers live outside of the Loxone universe feels a misplaced priority for me, personally.

The answer to all integration issues seems to be 'hack it together using an Rpi".  that's great if you're a daily Linux user but for those of us who aren't it's a steep learning curve.  

I've used Linux for various things over the years, but never enough that it's easy or natural -  every time it's a long process of trying to remember commands, looking them up, laboriously typing and checking inputs  and struggling to  work out why some obscure incantation has failed. 

[Rob_in]

On Wednesday, 18 January 2023 at 11:21:43 UTC+1 Simon Still wrote:

I really don't want to add a RPi to the support and maintenance.

Gotta say, no harder than using Loxone. I find it easier in many ways.

Robin

[Simon Still]

maybe I have a linux mind block  but it's really not.  

[g...@camleyphotographic.com]

I agree. Linux is never easy. Unless, you have an install device and never, ever change it, then it might be okay. Even then, when it goes wrong and you have to reinstall it you need to remember how to configure it, have a backup, or start all over again.

 

Uptime and stability is really outstanding from the miniserver. Imho that is its primary advantage over any form of self-installed linux solution.  I guess the decentralised KNX might have an advantage over a centralised Loxone installation in this aspect.

 

I am no linux novice. I have a cluster of virtual servers hosted by a pair of VMWare ESXi servers: if one server fails then the load automatically transfers to the other. To keep this setup with an uptime comparable to the miniserver is a major exercise. And even then, there are many bits that can, and sometimes do, go wrong, or system updates that need some manual assistance to apply.

 

Compare the simple activity of getting an external temperature: coming directly from an external probe connected to the miniserver, with coming via an external api from a third party website coming via loxberry weather; or, a third party service coming in via MQTT. Both great alternatives, but each of those extra links adds in another set of dependencies.

 

And when your device controls your heating and lights, you really do not want any downtime. Of course, people’s attitudes to maintenance and downtime will vary.

 

Best wishes, George

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[Rob_in]

On Thursday, 19 January 2023 at 13:55:02 UTC+1 g...@camleyphotographic.com wrote:

I agree. Linux is never easy. Unless, you have an install device and never, ever change it, then it might be okay. Even then, when it goes wrong and you have to reinstall it you need to remember how to configure it, have a backup, or start all over again.

Funnily enough that sounds pretty much like my Windows experience.

Every time I boot a VM to use Loxone Config it bleeps a million times about updates and other nonsense... I simply do not understand how people can put up with Windows.

But each to their own and all that.

I have a cluster of virtual servers hosted by a pair of VMWare ESXi servers: if one server fails then the load automatically transfers to the other.

Can you install a pair of Miniservers and have them run in redundant fail-over like this?

To keep this setup with an uptime comparable to the miniserver is a major exercise.

One may argue that if keeping your cluster going smoothly is a 'major exercise' then you are doing it wrong ;)

And even then, there are many bits that can, and sometimes do, go wrong, or system updates that need some manual assistance to apply.

Just like a Loxone Miniserver. Pretty sure we've all been bitten by their updates numerous times.

 And when your device controls your heating and lights, you really do not want any downtime.

This is very true. Which is why I despair at Loxone's software QA process :(

When you have a Miniserver die it's not nice. Luckily only happened to us once... so far.

A Raspberry Pi is so cheap you can afford to have one (or more!) sitting there as a spare. You can also cluster them for fault tolerance (as you pointed out). I am sorely tempted to add KNX/DMX/Modbus I/O to a Pi (which can all be done very cheaply) so one can be used in an emergency if our Miniserver dies. But if I do that what would be the point of keeping the Miniserver?

The cost of Loxone's software development and support (such as it is) must be built into the price of a Miniserver. This seems unfair to people who might be interested in having a second Miniserver just sitting on a shelf as a spare. In that scenario you want to buy 2 x hardware devices + 1 x software license not 2 x (hardware device + software license).

Sorry... not much of this is relevant to why a Gen 2 device upgrade is worthwhile <:o) 

Robin

[Simon Still]

On Friday, 20 January 2023 at 11:14:28 UTC Rob_in wrote:

On Thursday, 19 January 2023 at 13:55:02 UTC+1 g...@camleyphotographic.com wrote:

Funnily enough that sounds pretty much like my Windows experience.

Every time I boot a VM to use Loxone Config it bleeps a million times about updates and other nonsense... I simply do not understand how people can put up with Windows.

Same here.  I do think that's just the nature of having an OS you boot rarely - a couple of months of updates get compressed into the one time you want to use it.   

This is very true. Which is why I despair at Loxone's software QA process :(=

In 8 years of Loxone use I've yet to have any software bugs that have caused an issue with my installation in use.  Documentation has always been a bit patchy and is likely to get worse in some ways ('old' function blocks will still be in use in many installs).  

 

When you have a Miniserver die it's not nice. Luckily only happened to us once... so far.

That's is the issue with centralised Home Automation but true of any.  

[Rob_in]

On Wednesday, 25 January 2023 at 12:01:36 UTC+1 Simon Still wrote:

> When you have a Miniserver die it's not nice. Luckily only happened to us once... so far.

That's is the issue with centralised Home Automation but true of any.  

Yes and no. If one implemented a system that ran on a Raspberry Pi they could easily afford to have a spare device sitting there ready for use in a failure. They could even automate fail-over if necessary as discussed.

A Loxone Miniserver is too expensive to have one just sitting there as a spare. Well, for me at least.

Robin