Changing heating to a radiator manifold with 24v actuators

[Chris Bartlett]

Hi all,

Back on my heating project now its getting colder….

I have a large cottage with a large extension. The extension has UFH and the rest of the cottage has nine rads. They are all served from 22mm coper into a cascade of simple  push-fit manifolds to 10mm plastic pipe. Originally that was how it was installed, and was a right pain because there was one single thermostat for the whole house and as its quite open plan, the UFH would set the temp at the location of the thermostat so we had to wind it way up to get any heat to the rads and then try to balance the heat with the rad valves. I installed the Honeywell Evo home system which made it better - except it a) eats batteries like the Duracell bunny and b) with a single zone valve means that when any rad wants heat, they still all get heat up to the valve.

So I was going to replace it (discussed it hear some time back) and was going to use Loxone Air actuators and install at least one additional zone valve for upstairs/downstairs. With the temp sensors in the light switches (Faradite - bloody marvellous btw) it should be much better. However, now I’m thinking if I’m going to go to the bother of draining and re plumbing to put in an extra zone valve, I might as well replace all the push-fit converter manifolds to a dedicated radiator manifold like this  (https://www.multipipe.co.uk/product/multipipe-wall-hung-stainless-steel-radiator-manifold/) .Then I can  put actuators on each radiator circuit. This means a) no batteries, b) tidier looking rads, c) no heat in pipes that doesn’t need it and d) much better control overall.

Anyone done this or have any reasons why this would be dumb? What do I need to put at the rads - simple valves to be able to isolate or possibly nothing?

Hope someone can help - 

Chris

[Simon Still]

That seems a smart way to do it.  Smart radiator valves have always seemed a  bodge - a terrible place to have your thermostat, rely on batteries, and prone to stickign/breaking. 

Manifold approach looks good.  Probably worth looking into running a non-Loxone actuator and controlling via relays/DMX 

[Chris Bartlett]

Thanks Simon,

I had wondered about using non-loxone actuators as the price is pretty high compared to non Loxone ones. Does anyone have any options about good non-loxone actuators to use? I have an ‘extension’ extension so do have a number of free relay outputs I could use to drive 240V actuators and the manifold will be right next to my loxone cab so reasonably simple wiring. Alternatively - would 24 volt be a better idea? 

Also - is there anything ’special’ about the loxone actuators in a loxone system compared to some third-party 24v or 240 v actuator?

Cheers

Chris

[Scrivs 78 (scrivs78)]

Hi,

Due to the reliability issues I had heard about the Loxone ones I went with 240v actuators from underfloor heating company, seem ok but this is the first season. I have 5 and the UFH pump all  controled via Loxone tree nanos as my cabinet is a long way from the manifold. 

Regards

Andrew

On 8 Nov 2023, at 11:40, Chris Bartlett <ch...@dahu.co.uk> wrote:

Thanks Simon,

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[Steve Joyner]

I have all my rads and towel rails on manifolds using 240v actuators (heatmiser branded ones ).  These are controlled via loxone via modbus relays - using one of these 8Ch. WaveShare Modbus relay units per manifold   https://www.waveshare.com/modbus-rtu-relay.htm

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[Simon Still]

I can't believe there is anything special about the Loxone ones, other than that have tree or air built in.  I suspect most others are 240v but my preference is to use 24v when I can as it's safer and easier. 

I get the impression actuators have a fairly high failure rate (we hear about the Loxone ones on here but a friend had a few big brand ones fail fairly quickly on their UFH install).  Most are just open or shut but I think there are some 1-10v ones around so you can vary the flow rate (and get the optimum return temperature if your supply temp is fixed) and I've seen one that has 'smarts' built into it to do that automatically.

Also Rad valves.  I'd do with nothing but not sure if you can.  With a manifold set up it kind of makes sense to do all the isolation there.

[Jonathan Dixon]

I believe the Loxone actuators are proportional rather than on/off. I've never used them though due to the failure rates. 

Some actuators are faster response time, most take ~minutes to open close. This is generally not an issue but for my use case I wish I had faster responding ones: I use a manifold to feed Fan coil units for cooling. When the heat pump starts or finishes reheating the hot water tank, a slug of hot water washes into the fan coil and results in hot rather than cool air making it to the bedroom; I shut off the actuator based on the pipe flow temperature but it's not fast enough.

Salus autobalancing actuators use servos rather than hot wax so respond faster. (and autobalance, which makes sense for UFH manifold but not for my use case)

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[Peter]

I've used two Emmeti T2 Wall Hung Radiator manifolds , one for the ground floor and one for upstairs. The Ground floor is fitted with 240v actuators driven by DMX.

The upstairs was originally fitted with Loxone Tree actuators which I have since replaced with a 24v version, again DMX driven. Not really sure why I went for 240v downstairs now, but chose 24v following advice from this group.

I replaced the Loxone actuators for two reasons: Firstly, due to the well documented structural failures, although to be fair, after two broke, I experienced no further problems. Secondly, as you probably know the Loxone product is proportional, but for the life of me I couldn't understand why you'd want a valve open just a few percent and effectively working against the boiler. (And yes, I do understand that the Climate Controller 'Switch on Threshold' will prevent the boiler from short cycling). 

Incidentally I now have five Loxone Tree actuators to dispose of - but will open another thread.

[Techdoctor]

Just had a thought there is an Enocean  self powered radiator valve MVA008 or the MVA009 and Loxone do a EnOcean Extension. Don't know if the cost of going this route is any better than Loxone actuators.

Do the Loxone actuators have an anti-cal function. This is basically where the actuator goes from fully off to fully on a few times in a row, to make sure the needle valve isn't sticking, many system have this preset to every 6 months.

[Ewan Tait]

On Friday, November 10, 2023 at 2:50:17 PM UTC Techdoctor wrote:

Do the Loxone actuators have an anti-cal function. This is basically where the actuator goes from fully off to fully on a few times in a row, to make sure the needle valve isn't sticking, many system have this preset to every 6 months.

The Intelligent Room Controller can be configured to open and close valves after a predetermined period of time if the heating isn't used. My valves (both the Loxone ones and the 230V ones) get opened and closed every two weeks through the summer.

Cheers,

Ewan