CLLv1.1 goes out on Monday, 12 Oct 2015

[Robin Lee Powell]

I'm finishing a review of Chapter 19, but it's otherwise done and I
expect to have that done shortly.

So, if you need me to wait because you're reviewing it, now would be
a *very* good time to say so. I can, of course, always update it
later.

[Timothy Lawrence]

I have been briefly reviewing the CLL version at http://vrici.lojban.org/~rlpowell/media/public/cll_nochunks_2015-10-05/#section-pronunciation

The main feedback I have is to be sure that its suggestion of pronunciation is correct, especially for "o".

The text seems to make assumptions about the reader's dialect of English.
The section on pronunciation says "o as in “dome”" but my dialect of English pronounces "dome" as http://howjsay.com/index.php?word=dome&submit=Submit (i.e. a diphthong, which is incorrect). This may result in many readers learning the wrong pronunciation of Lojban.

I mentioned this issue also existing in the "Level 0 Booklet" publication in my "Pronunciation of "o"" email to the lojban-beginners group. There must be a better example word that has the correct "o" for all dialects of English.

So this is CLLv1.1: is this only for fixing errata? How much content is subject to change? Is there a schedule for the second edition? https://mw.lojban.org/papri/suggestions_for_CLL,_second_edition

________________________________________
From: loj...@googlegroups.com <loj...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Robin Lee Powell <rlpo...@digitalkingdom.org>
Sent: Saturday, 10 October 2015 1:33 PM
To: loj...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [lojban] CLLv1.1 goes out on Monday, 12 Oct 2015

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[Gleki Arxokuna]

2015-10-11 15:31 GMT+03:00 Timothy Lawrence <timothy....@connect.qut.edu.au>:

So this is CLLv1.1: is this only for fixing errata? How much content is subject to change? Is there a schedule for the second edition? https://mw.lojban.org/papri/suggestions_for_CLL,_second_edition

I'd suggest adding this issue to https://mw.lojban.org/papri/CLL,_aka_Reference_Grammar,_Errata

Mentioning examples from different English dialects, not one one unnamed dialect might be a solution.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Close-mid_back_rounded_vowel#Occurrence

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open-mid_back_rounded_vowel#Occurrence

[Pierre Abbat]

On Sunday, October 11, 2015 12:31:29 Timothy Lawrence wrote:
> I have been briefly reviewing the CLL version at
> http://vrici.lojban.org/~rlpowell/media/public/cll_nochunks_2015-10-05/#sec
> tion-pronunciation
>
> The main feedback I have is to be sure that its suggestion of pronunciation
> is correct, especially for "o".
>
> The text seems to make assumptions about the reader's dialect of English.
> The section on pronunciation says "o as in “dome”" but my dialect of English
> pronounces "dome" as http://howjsay.com/index.php?word=dome&submit=Submit
> (i.e. a diphthong, which is incorrect). This may result in many readers
> learning the wrong pronunciation of Lojban.
>
> I mentioned this issue also existing in the "Level 0 Booklet" publication in
> my "Pronunciation of "o"" email to the lojban-beginners group. There must
> be a better example word that has the correct "o" for all dialects of
> English.

I don't think there is. In my idiolect, which is a mix of different American
dialects without the cot-caught merger, /o/ is diphthongized except before
/r/, /ɔ/ is distinct, and /o/ and /ɒ/ contrast except before /r/. Rhotic
speakers may have trouble separating /o/ from following /r/. Non-rhotic
dialects do something different with /or/.

Pierre
--
li fi'u vu'u fi'u fi'u du li pa

[Robin Lee Powell]

On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 12:31:29PM +0000, Timothy Lawrence wrote:
> So this is CLLv1.1: is this only for fixing errata?

From my POV, this is *only* for providing the community with a
version that can be rebuilt and republished at will, which I have
done; the rest is up to y'all. This version has very few of the
errata fixes done, and no other content changes; see the CLL Eratta
page on the main site.

> Is there a schedule for the second edition?

Dunno.

[Pierre Abbat]

On Sunday, October 11, 2015 09:57:58 Pierre Abbat wrote:
> I don't think there is. In my idiolect, which is a mix of different American
> dialects without the cot-caught merger, /o/ is diphthongized except before
> /r/, /ɔ/ is distinct, and /o/ and /ɒ/ contrast except before /r/. Rhotic
> speakers may have trouble separating /o/ from following /r/. Non-rhotic
> dialects do something different with /or/.

On further thought, how about "boll"? I have twelve vowels (not counting
phonemic diphthongs and r-colored vowels) and a word for each preceded by /b/
and followed by /l/. However, some speakers may pronounce it the same as
"bowl", diphthongizing it.

Pierre
--
loi mintu se ckaji danlu cu jmaji

[scope845h...@icebubble.org]

I was just comparing the new edition of the official Lojban Reference
Grammar (CLL v1.1) with my annotated(/corrected) bound copy of the
book... and I find myself rather disappointed. A few of the errors in
v1.0 were corrected, but most of the errors, omissions, ambiguities, and
confusing passages in v1.0 were retained in v1.1. I had hoped that
these errors would be caught, and that the new edition of the CLL would
be clear, correct, and intelligible.

Here's just one example off the top of my head: In section 10.4, both
CLLv1.0 and v1.1 state that a temporal tense is expressed before a
spatial tense. But the formal grammar (EBNF Rule 972, yacc Rule 979)
allows them to occur in either order. The text is still wrong. And
there are many other examples.

Could anyone tell me why all these problems weren't corrected in CLL
v1.1?

[Ron Hale-Evans]

I'm a lurker on this project, and I appreciate all the work done on it. However, the correct answer to your question, as with all free culture / open source projects, is "because YOU didn't fix it!"

Congratulations to everyone on 1.1.

Best wishes,

Ron Hale-Evans

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[Gleki Arxokuna]

Because those who publish the CLL are not superbeings? Hint: continue unofficially at https://lojban.pw in a hope that the officials catch up.