save file menu confusion

[Josef]

Leo has a File->Save As Zipped menu entry. When I select this, the file selector menu selects files of type "Leo files (*.leojs).

Another menu entry File->Save-File-As-Zipped shows "Leo files (*.db)".

I think the menu entries and the underlying actions do not quite match up.

using:

Leo 6.6b1, master branch, build c1bddc3131

2021-11-28 04:31:32 -0600

on Kubuntu 20.04

[tbp1...@gmail.com]

There is also Save-File-As-Zipped, which insists on *.db.  I never tried to use these, but they are confusing!

[Edward K. Ream]

On Tue, Jan 4, 2022 at 5:51 AM Josef <joe...@gmx.net> wrote:

Leo has a File->Save As Zipped menu entry. When I select this, the file selector menu selects files of type "Leo files (*.leojs).

Another menu entry File->Save-File-As-Zipped shows "Leo files (*.db)".

I think the menu entries and the underlying actions do not quite match up.

Good catch.  Recent revs in the devel branch fix these problems.

Edward

[Edward K. Ream]

On Tue, Jan 4, 2022 at 8:49 AM tbp1...@gmail.com <tbp1...@gmail.com> wrote:

There is also Save-File-As-Zipped, which insists on *.db.  I never tried to use these, but they are confusing!

These should be less confusing now that the menu items in leoSettings.leo match the proper commands.

BTW, I have removed some references to save-as-unzipped, which has been replaced by save-as-xml.

Edward

[tbp1...@gmail.com]

That's good to hear.  I find I would like these items to read "Save Outline as ..." instead of "Save File as ...".  I usually think of "outlines" and "files" as being different things even though I know that a Leo outline is saved as a file.  Operationally, though, a file that I would work on in Leo is an @file, @clean, etc. tree and not an outline.  Seeing "Files" in those menu items confuses me.

[Edward K. Ream]

On Tue, Jan 11, 2022 at 12:31 AM tbp1...@gmail.com <tbp1...@gmail.com> wrote:

That's good to hear.  I find I would like these items to read "Save Outline as ..." instead of "Save File as ...".  I usually think of "outlines" and "files" as being different things even though I know that a Leo outline is saved as a file.  Operationally, though, a file that I would work on in Leo is an @file, @clean, etc. tree and not an outline.  Seeing "Files" in those menu items confuses me.

Could you be more specific? Which menu items would you like to change.

Edward

[tbp1...@gmail.com]

With the latest devel version, I see you've removed the "File as" wording, thank you very much.  I think that more improvement can be made, though.

1. Save As XML would be better as Save as .leo (XML).  Many users will not realize that a .leo file is an XML file.

2. Save As Zipped is misleading because it does not produce a zip archive.  Better: Save as .db (SQLLite).
3. Is there a difference between Save As... and Save to...? If so, Save To ... needs some wording to make it clear what it will do that's different.  If not, the latter should be removed.

4. Save As Zipped retains a lock on the saved file, such that the file can't be deleted (or, I speculate, moved) until Leo is closed.

[Edward K. Ream]

On Tue, Jan 11, 2022 at 10:15 AM tbp1...@gmail.com <tbp1...@gmail.com> wrote:

With the latest devel version, I see you've removed the "File as" wording, thank you very much.  I think that more improvement can be made, though.

1. Save As XML would be better as Save as .leo (XML).  Many users will not realize that a .leo file is an XML file.

2. Save As Zipped is misleading because it does not produce a zip archive.  Better: Save as .db (SQLLite).

Good suggestions.

3. Is there a difference between Save As... and Save to...? If so, Save To ... needs some wording to make it clear what it will do that's different.

"Save As" and "Save To" are different. I think the terminology is fairly widespread.

"Save As" saves the outline to a different name, and also changes the name of the outline to that new name so that a later "Save" will save the outline to the new name. "Save To" saves the outline to a different name, but leaves the name of the outline unchanged.

I don't want to change the name of these menu items.

4. Save As Zipped retains a lock on the saved file, such that the file can't be deleted (or, I speculate, moved) until Leo is closed.

That's a different issue.

Edward

[Edward K. Ream]

On Wednesday, January 12, 2022 at 11:08:06 AM UTC-5 Edward K. Ream wrote:

1. Save As XML would be better as Save as .leo (XML).  Many users will not realize that a .leo file is an XML file.

2. Save As Zipped is misleading because it does not produce a zip archive.  Better: Save as .db (SQLLite).

Recent revs, in devel, improve several docstrings and the names of menu items.  I plan no further work in this area.

Edward

[Viktor Ransmayr]

Hello Edward,

I know I'm late to the discussion, but here are my 2 cents.

Edward K. Ream schrieb am Mittwoch, 12. Januar 2022 um 17:08:06 UTC+1:

On Tue, Jan 11, 2022 at 10:15 AM tbp1...@gmail.com <tbp1...@gmail.com> wrote:

With the latest devel version, I see you've removed the "File as" wording, thank you very much.  I think that more improvement can be made, though.

1. Save As XML would be better as Save as .leo (XML).  Many users will not realize that a .leo file is an XML file.

2. Save As Zipped is misleading because it does not produce a zip archive.  Better: Save as .db (SQLLite).

Good suggestions.

Minor correction: It should be SQLite. - See https://www.sqlite.org/

3. Is there a difference between Save As... and Save to...? If so, Save To ... needs some wording to make it clear what it will do that's different.

"Save As" and "Save To" are different. I think the terminology is fairly widespread.

"Save As" saves the outline to a different name, and also changes the name of the outline to that new name so that a later "Save" will save the outline to the new name. "Save To" saves the outline to a different name, but leaves the name of the outline unchanged.

I don't want to change the name of these menu items.

Searching for "Save As [and/or/versus] Save To" does not return any relevant results for me ...

I re-read your explanation multiple time - but - failed to get the use case, when & why  "Save To" is really needed :-(

Can you please explain the need for it once more. - TIA!

 With kind regards,

Viktor

[tbp1...@gmail.com]

I do grasp this distinction, at least.  With Save As, when the save is done you end up in the saved outline, which would have a different name or path  from the original. With Save To, you stay in the original outline.  I don't know an alternative wording to suggest, but I don't think this usage speaks for itself very clearly.

[Félix]

Suggestion: 

In photoshop and other mainstream and popular software packages, this action is labeled as : "Save as Copy" 

[Edward K. Ream]

On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 2:52 PM Viktor Ransmayr <viktor....@gmail.com> wrote:

Minor correction: It should be SQLite. - See https://www.sqlite.org/

Fixed at rev c74db46 in devel.

I re-read your explanation multiple time - but - failed to get the use case, when & why  "Save To" is really needed :-(

Sometimes I want to save a copy of an outline while not changing the outline's "real" name.  Sometimes I do want also to change the outline's name.

But yes, having two similar commands is a bit confusing.

Edward

[Edward K. Ream]

On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 2:06 PM Félix <felix...@gmail.com> wrote:

Suggestion: 

In photoshop and other mainstream and popular software packages, this action is labeled as : "Save as Copy" 

Or maybe "Save a Copy" ?  Either way, I think the new name is clearer.

Rev a4bb2a1 in devel now uses "Save A Copy" as the menu name, and puts "Save A Copy" just below "Save As".

Edward

[Viktor Ransmayr]

Am Do., 13. Jan. 2022 um 20:06 Uhr schrieb Edward K. Ream <edre...@gmail.com>:

On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 2:52 PM Viktor Ransmayr <viktor....@gmail.com> wrote:

Minor correction: It should be SQLite. - See https://www.sqlite.org/

Fixed at rev c74db46 in devel.

Thanks for the quick fix.

With kind regards,

Viktor

[Viktor Ransmayr]

IMO this - and - the previous changes improve the readability of Leo's GUI file menu a lot. - Thanks a lot!

With kind regards,

Viktor

[tbp1...@gmail.com]

+1

[Edward K. Ream]

Rev a4bb2a1 in devel now uses "Save A Copy" as the menu name, and puts "Save A Copy" just below "Save As".

IMO this - and - the previous changes improve the readability of Leo's GUI file menu a lot. - Thanks a lot!

You're welcome.

Edward