Re: UX working group?

[Aaron Crickenberger]

+kubernetes-sig-apps

+kubernetes-sig-cli

+kubernetes-sig-cluster-lifecycle

UX can mean different things to different people.  For example SIG Apps is focused on the experience of developing and running applications in Kubernetes [1].  SIG CLI is focused on the user experience of command line tools that interact with the Kubernetes API [2].  SIG Cluster Lifecycle aims to improve the user experience for cluster administration. [3] 

Given that it crosses so many boundaries a WG makes sense to me.  I'm curious what the aforementioned SIGs think.

- aaron

[1] https://github.com/kubernetes/community/blob/master/sig-apps/charter.md#scope

[2] https://github.com/kubernetes/community/tree/master/sig-cli#cli-special-interest-group

[3] https://github.com/kubernetes/community/blob/master/sig-cluster-lifecycle/charter.md#in-scope

On Tue, Jun 11, 2019 at 6:37 PM Stephen Augustus <Ste...@agst.us> wrote:

(adding Arch and PM back, so we don't lose the convo)

Thinking on it, this could work nicely as a subproject of SIG PM.

-- Stephen

On Tue, Jun 11, 2019, 21:25 'Ron Norman' via kubernetes-sig-contribex <kubernetes-s...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Hi Tasha,

I think this is a fantastic idea, and I'd love to contribute.  I'm the UX Manager for GKE, Anthos and Cloud Run @ Google.  A few of the UX Researchers and Designers on my team have contributed to Kubernetes OSS, but we've never formed anything as official as a working group.  There is sig-ui, but I believe the focus is mainly the K8s Dashboard UI (Dan Romlein from our team is active there). We have some foundational Research that we published to the Knative project on Service Naming that might be a good starter topic on the UX Research front.  Information architecture/design is always a fun UX topics in the K8s world, and maybe a good place for some community driven Design exploration as well.

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[Stephen Augustus]

It's squishy. WG fits a little, but is then bounded by an unspecified countdown clock.

This is something we'd want to stick around, right?

It may fit better under a horizontal SIG.

-- Stephen

[Tasha Drew]

Issue created with comments from this thread so far! Check it out here: https://github.com/kubernetes/community/issues/3794

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[Stephen Augustus]

Thanks for filing that, Tasha! I've commented my support on the issue. :)

-- Stephen

[Lubomir I. Ivanov]

On Wed, 12 Jun 2019 at 06:50, Stephen Augustus <Ste...@agst.us> wrote:
>
> It's squishy. WG fits a little, but is then bounded by an unspecified countdown clock.
> This is something we'd want to stick around, right?
>

UX is a long-running issue so it don't think it fits a WG.

> It may fit better under a horizontal SIG.
>

SIG UI seems like the best SIG as per the name, except that our SIG
names are misleading.
(e.g. CLI is an UI)

a new SIG or a new type of group? - possibly not.
i think just a slack channel where you can ask people to participate
in meetings or have a look at specific UX problems fit this best.

lubomir
--

[Matt Farina]

SIG UI seems like the best SIG as per the name, except that our SIG
names are misleading.

I would disagree. UI and UX are two different things. The output of UX research can shape how one builds a feature. It's not just the varying UIs. This is why I found SIG PM to be interesting as it owns product management.

[Brendan Burns]

I'm in favor and interested. I would actually broaden this somewhat and make it be an accessibility working group (or SIG-Accessbility) covering things as varied as internationalization, limited sight acessibility, UX, etc.

--brendan

---

From: kubernetes-si...@googlegroups.com <kubernetes-si...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Matt Farina <matt....@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2019 1:21 PM
To: Lubomir I. Ivanov
Cc: Stephen Augustus; Aaron Crickenberger; Ron Norman; kubernetes-sig-contribex; kubernet...@googlegroups.com; kubernetes-sig-architecture; kubernetes-sig-apps; kubernetes-sig-cluster-lifecycle; kubernetes-sig-cli
Subject: Re: UX working group?

 

SIG UI seems like the best SIG as per the name, except that our SIG
names are misleading.

I would disagree. UI and UX are two different things. The output of UX research can shape how one builds a feature. It's not just the varying UIs. This is why I found SIG PM to be interesting as it owns product management.

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[Jaice Singer DuMars]

+1 to Brendan's suggestion. 

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[Tasha Drew]

I think accessibility is a great reframing of the problem to be solved

Sent from my iPhone

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[Rajakavitha Kodhandapani]

Hi,

SIG-Accessibility is great.

At SIG-Docs we have the accessibility guidelines for writing content (https://kubernetes.io/docs/contribute/style/style-guide/#markdown-elements). 

This was completed as planned in Q2. Guidelines for the UX was planned for Q3 of 2019.

Regards,

Rajie

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[Brendan Burns]

Ok, so it sounds like we have something approaching a critical mass for forming a SIG-Accessbility?

(fwiw, I tried to form this SIG ~ 1year ago and there wasn't much interest, so I'm heartened to see more interest this time around 🙂)

---

From: Rajakavitha Kodhandapani <krajak...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2019 9:40 PM
To: Tasha Drew
Cc: Jaice Singer DuMars; Brendan Burns; Matt Farina; Lubomir I. Ivanov; Stephen Augustus; Aaron Crickenberger; Ron Norman; kubernetes-sig-contribex; kubernet...@googlegroups.com; kubernetes-sig-architecture; kubernetes-sig-apps; kubernetes-sig-cluster-lifecycle; kubernetes-sig-cli

[Roger Klorese]

+1 nb :)

Roger B.A. Klorese
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[Stephen Augustus]

I really like this idea as well.

Echoing Tasha, thanks for reframing it that way, Brendan! :)

-- Stephen

[Matt Farina]

Accessibility is different from UX. There is some overlap but a lot that isn't overlap.

The proposal here was for UX. We need that. Are the people who proposed this on board with pivoting to accessibility? I would hate to push people into something other than where they trying to contribute.

If they want to do UX I think we should enable them to do so.

--

Matt Farina

mattfarina.com

Go in Practice - A book of Recipes for the Go programming language.

Code Engineered - A blog on cloud, web, and software development.

[Ron Norman]

I believe both UX and Accessibility are important areas of interest, and yes, they are not 1:1.  Also agreed that UX needs to consider all "surface areas", mainly UI, CLI, API, Docs, but maybe more in the future?  User experience, in my (biased) opinion, is the broader topic that spans all of those, and Accessibility deals with specific consideration that touch each of those surface areas in different ways.  For example, CLI a11y is much more about keeping printouts simple, reducing non-informational characters and being straightforward in optimizing for readability via screen readers.  Vs web/mobile UI, you're working to optimize for component constructs, ordering objects into a flow for navigation and alot of content writing for alt-text.

I would happily contribute to both UX and A11y efforts, but I think they will likely be two separate but very related topics.

[Matt Farina]

So we can have some common working definitions of these things... here are some definitions... not my own...

UX (from wikipedia):

user experience (UX) refers to a person's emotions and attitudes about using a particular product, system or service. It includes the practical, experiential, affective, meaningful and valuable aspects of human–computer interaction and product ownership. Additionally, it includes a person's perceptions of system aspects such as utility, ease of use and efficiency.

Accessibility (from wikipedia):

Accessibility is the design of products, devices, services, or environments for people with disabilities. ... Accessibility can be viewed as the "ability to access" and benefit from some system or entity.

 wikipedia goes on to say...

Accessibility is not to be confused with usability, which is the extent to which a product (such as a device, service, or environment) can be used by specified users to achieve specified goals with effectiveness, efficiency and satisfaction in a specified context of use.

I'm not sure where the people who proposed the UX effort are at on this. But, I've recently heard several people put their own definitions to these terms or call them squishy. Not just in regards to this conversation. Instead of discussing this with different personal interpretations I wanted to put out the common meaning.

In defense of UX, I reminded of what Jacob Nielsen wrote about usability back in 2012. One line jumps out at me.

Definition of Useful = usability + utility.

I don't hear anyone saying k8s doesn't provide utility. On the contrary, I hear people wondering why more people don't see the utility. I do hear people complain about the usability and overall experience. The difficulty in engaging with Kubernetes is now used as a selling point by some businesses. They will help you with part of that known pain.

I think a good focus on UX can help us understand people to build more usability into Kubernetes, the ecosystem, and the distributions. This will make Kubernetes more useful to more people.

But, that last part is just my 2 cents.

[Andrew Sauber]

I've worked with user experience specialists, some of whom take on the
responsibility of increasing and maintaining accessibility. The level
of knowledge that some of these professionals have of screen reader
quirks and gotchas, among other interesting topics, is astounding.

My vote would therefore be for a sig-ux, which, in its goals section
of its README.md, would take on the responsibility of increasing and
maintaining accessibility.

- Andrew

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[Tasha Drew]

Hey Matt,

I was the OP for this topic, and my take on this is that I love the reframing of Accessibility, with UX being one of the goals of the group, because I think it puts a proper frame on what the group should achieve. 

Good, well thought out UX should include accessibility as a primary driver and goal — to make Kubernetes accessible for everyone. This includes those with disabilities, those speaking other languages, those who don’t aren’t distributed systems engineers, those who aren’t programmers but are operators or users. 

Explicitly, I would see this group as tackling the following:

- internationalization 

- accessibility (limited sight, color blindness, other usability gaps)

- using design to increase cohesion (shared iconography, design framework)

- better understanding our users through user research (refining and expanding personas that we can all use to improve our work, including perhaps cluster operators, application operators, developers)

I like the idea of framing this all under Accessibility because the goal of the group would be making Kubernetes accessible to all. But you are right in that the strict framing of the word accessible is more restrictive than what I’ve laid out here. 

Sent from my iPhone

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[Matt Farina]

Tasha, thanks for your quick response.

I have three questions on my mind (for anyone to jump in on)

1. Accessibility is usually seen as a sub-element of UX (e.g., see wikipedia on this). It's not the other way around. In recruiting people to engage in this effort will it be better to be a UX group or an accessibility group?
2.  How do the UX and accessibility people in our midst think about the different names and scopes?
3. Where does usability fit into this?
   

- Matt

[Andrew Sauber]

Hi all on this thread and beyond,

I just ran this discussion by our in-house UX lead and he said that
the term "usability" would encompass user interface improvements,
accessibility improvements, and user research.

So, how about sig-usability?

- Andrew

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[Dor Kleiman]

+1 for usability, because accessibility could make people think it's _just_ about accessibility.

- D

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[Brendan Burns]

Usability is fine with me. I'm definitely not a terminology expert in this area, so if 'usability' encompases both UX and accesbility, that's great with me.

--brendan

---

From: 'Dor Kleiman' via kubernetes-sig-architecture <kubernetes-si...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2019 1:39 PM
To: Andrew Sauber
Cc: matt....@gmail.com; tasha...@gmail.com; Ron Norman; Stephen Augustus; Aaron Crickenberger; Brendan Burns; Jaice Singer DuMars; Lubomir I. Ivanov; Rajakavitha Kodhandapani; kubernetes-sig-apps; kubernetes-sig-architecture; kubernetes-sig-cli; kubernetes-sig-cluster-lifecycle; kubernetes-sig-contribex; kubernet...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: UX working group?

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[Brendan Burns]

Though I think for a lay-person (e.g. me) accessibility seems to encompass more of usability than vise versa...

But I don't really care, I'm just excited to see the group get formed :)

--brendan

---

From: 'Brendan Burns' via kubernetes-sig-architecture <kubernetes-si...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2019 1:45 PM
To: Andrew Sauber; Dor Kleiman
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[Tasha Drew]

Works for me too! :)

Tasha

[Ron Norman]

+1 super excited to collaborate on this important area within Kubernetes.

[Brendan Burns]

Ok, to get this formed up, we need 2-3 people who are already members of the kubernetes community

(https://github.com/kubernetes/community/blob/master/community-membership.md#member)

to volunteer to be a chair of the SIG.

Who is interested (and is already a Kubernetes community member)

I'm definitely willing to be a chair if needed, but don't want to step on any toes (and we'll still need at least one more)

Thanks!

-brendan

for those curious, the full SIG forming process is here:

https://github.com/kubernetes/community/blob/master/committee-steering/governance/sig-governance.md#sig-roles-and-organizational-governance

---

From: Ron Norman <ronn...@google.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2019 5:22 PM
To: Tasha Drew
Cc: Brendan Burns; Andrew Sauber; Dor Kleiman; matt....@gmail.com; Stephen Augustus; Aaron Crickenberger; Jaice Singer DuMars; Lubomir I. Ivanov; Rajakavitha Kodhandapani; kubernetes-sig-apps; kubernetes-sig-architecture; kubernetes-sig-cli; kubernetes-sig-cluster-lifecycle; kubernetes-sig-contribex; kubernet...@googlegroups.com

[Rajakavitha Kodhandapani]

Hi, 

I am a member of the Kubernetes Organization. I am also willing to volunteer to be the chair.

Regards,

Rajie

[Mike Spreitzer]

To my mind, "usability" is a broader topic than "accessibility" and includes the latter, and the reverse is not true.

Regards,
Mike

"'Brendan Burns' via kubernetes-sig-architecture" <kubernetes-si...@googlegroups.com> wrote on 06/14/2019 12:19:19 AM:

> From: "'Brendan Burns' via kubernetes-sig-architecture" <kubernetes-

> sig-arch...@googlegroups.com>
> To: Ron Norman <ronn...@google.com>, Tasha Drew <tasha...@gmail.com>
> Cc: Andrew Sauber <asa...@linode.com>, Dor Kleiman
> <config...@google.com>, "matt....@gmail.com"
> <matt....@gmail.com>, Stephen Augustus <Ste...@agst.us>, Aaron
> Crickenberger <spi...@google.com>, Jaice Singer DuMars
> <jdu...@gmail.com>, "Lubomir I. Ivanov" <neol...@gmail.com>,
> Rajakavitha Kodhandapani <krajak...@gmail.com>, kubernetes-sig-
> apps <kubernete...@googlegroups.com>, kubernetes-sig-
> architecture <kubernetes-si...@googlegroups.com>,
> kubernetes-sig-cli <kubernete...@googlegroups.com>,
> kubernetes-sig-cluster-lifecycle <kubernetes-sig-cluster-
> life...@googlegroups.com>, kubernetes-sig-contribex <kubernetes-
> sig-co...@googlegroups.com>, "kubernetes-sig-
> p...@googlegroups.com" <kubernet...@googlegroups.com>
> Date: 06/14/2019 12:19 AM
> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: UX working group?

>
> Ok, to get this formed up, we need 2-3 people who are already
> members of the kubernetes community
>
> (https://github.com/kubernetes/community/blob/master/community-
> membership.md#member)
>
> to volunteer to be a chair of the SIG.
>
> Who is interested (and is already a Kubernetes community member)
>
> I'm definitely willing to be a chair if needed, but don't want to
> step on any toes (and we'll still need at least one more)
>
> Thanks!
> -brendan
>
> for those curious, the full SIG forming process is here:
> https://github.com/kubernetes/community/blob/master/committee-
> steering/governance/sig-governance.md#sig-roles-and-organizational-governance

>

> From: Ron Norman <ronn...@google.com>
> Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2019 5:22 PM
> To: Tasha Drew
> Cc: Brendan Burns; Andrew Sauber; Dor Kleiman;
> matt....@gmail.com; Stephen Augustus; Aaron Crickenberger; Jaice
> Singer DuMars; Lubomir I. Ivanov; Rajakavitha Kodhandapani;
> kubernetes-sig-apps; kubernetes-sig-architecture; kubernetes-sig-
> cli; kubernetes-sig-cluster-lifecycle; kubernetes-sig-contribex;
> kubernet...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: UX working group?

>  
> +1 super excited to collaborate on this important area within Kubernetes.
>
> On Thu, Jun 13, 2019, 4:41 PM Tasha Drew <tasha...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Works for me too! :)
>
> Tasha
>
> On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 1:47 PM Brendan Burns <bbu...@microsoft.com> wrote:
> Though I think for a lay-person (e.g. me) accessibility seems to
> encompass more of usability than vise versa...
>
> But I don't really care, I'm just excited to see the group get formed :)
>
> --brendan

>
> From: 'Brendan Burns' via kubernetes-sig-architecture <kubernetes-
> sig-arch...@googlegroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2019 1:45 PM
> To: Andrew Sauber; Dor Kleiman
> Cc: matt....@gmail.com; tasha...@gmail.com; Ron Norman; Stephen
> Augustus; Aaron Crickenberger; Jaice Singer DuMars; Lubomir I.
> Ivanov; Rajakavitha Kodhandapani; kubernetes-sig-apps; kubernetes-
> sig-architecture; kubernetes-sig-cli; kubernetes-sig-cluster-
> lifecycle; kubernetes-sig-contribex; kubernet...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: UX working group?
>  
> Usability is fine with me. I'm definitely not a terminology expert
> in this area, so if 'usability' encompases both UX and accesbility,
> that's great with me.
>
> --brendan

>
> From: 'Dor Kleiman' via kubernetes-sig-architecture <kubernetes-sig-
> archit...@googlegroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2019 1:39 PM
> To: Andrew Sauber
> Cc: matt....@gmail.com; tasha...@gmail.com; Ron Norman; Stephen
> Augustus; Aaron Crickenberger; Brendan Burns; Jaice Singer DuMars;
> Lubomir I. Ivanov; Rajakavitha Kodhandapani; kubernetes-sig-apps;
> kubernetes-sig-architecture; kubernetes-sig-cli; kubernetes-sig-

> cluster-lifecycle; kubernetes-sig-contribex; kubernetes-sig-
> p...@googlegroups.com

> > To post to this group, send email to kubernetes-sig-cluster-
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[Brendan Burns]

Any one else interested in being a chair? We can have 1-2 more folks.

--brendan

---

From: Rajakavitha Kodhandapani <krajak...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2019 9:25:40 PM
To: Brendan Burns
Cc: Ron Norman; Tasha Drew; Andrew Sauber; Dor Kleiman; matt....@gmail.com; Stephen Augustus; Aaron Crickenberger; Jaice Singer DuMars; Lubomir I. Ivanov; kubernetes-sig-apps; kubernetes-sig-architecture; kubernetes-sig-cli; kubernetes-sig-cluster-lifecycle; kubernetes-sig-contribex; kubernet...@googlegroups.com

[Vallery Lancey]

Perhaps a solidified SIG charter/mission statement would help escape sig-bikeshed. ;)

Thank you folks for stepping up!

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[Vallery Lancey]

I'd like to volunteer, if there's not a rush on the role.

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[Himanshu Pandey]

I would like to volunteer as well.

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[Stephen Augustus]

Agreed. 

The value of creating the SIG is more important than the name at the moment.

I think the name will probably present itself once someone puts pen to paper.

-- Stephen

[Brendan Burns]

Ok looks like we have some chairs. I will do a PR draft with the charter and we can bike shed from there :)

--brendan

---

From: Stephen Augustus <Ste...@agst.us>
Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2019 10:14:36 PM
To: Vallery Lancey
Cc: Mike Spreitzer; Brendan Burns; Andrew Sauber; Dor Kleiman; Jaice Singer DuMars; Rajakavitha Kodhandapani; kubernetes-sig-apps; kubernetes-sig-architecture; kubernetes-sig-cli; kubernetes-sig-cluster-lifecycle; kubernetes-sig-contribex; kubernet...@googlegroups.com; matt....@gmail.com; Lubomir I. Ivanov; Ron Norman; Aaron Crickenberger; Tasha Drew
Subject: Re: Re: UX working group?

 

[Stephen Augustus]

Awesome! Thanks Brendan. :)

[Tasha Drew]

Cool, I am happy to help as well, super excited to get this going 

Sent from my iPhone

[Phillip Wittrock]

Thanks for kicking off this discussion.

Do you have an idea of the proposed scope of the research - e.g. would it include CLIs, APIs, documentation etc?  Or would it be more focussed on UI, dashboards, etc?

- Phil

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[Brendan Burns]

I think all of the above except perhaps APIs, as I think that's the domain of SIG architecture.

--brendan

---

From: Phillip Wittrock <pwit...@google.com>
Sent: Friday, June 14, 2019 7:55:15 AM
To: Tasha Drew
Cc: Stephen Augustus; Brendan Burns; Vallery Lancey; Mike Spreitzer; Andrew Sauber; Dor Kleiman; Jaice Singer DuMars; Rajakavitha Kodhandapani; kubernetes-sig-apps; kubernetes-sig-architecture; kubernetes-sig-cli; kubernetes-sig-cluster-lifecycle; kubernetes-sig-contribex; kubernet...@googlegroups.com; matt....@gmail.com; Lubomir I. Ivanov; Ron Norman; Aaron Crickenberger

[Clayton Coleman]

Would the sig be advisory to sig-cli, or would sig-cli have to show up at sig-usability to get UX feedback on CLIs?  (i.e. what expectations placed on other sigs)

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[Antoine Pelisse]

On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 9:22 AM Clayton Coleman <ccol...@redhat.com> wrote:

Would the sig be advisory to sig-cli, or would sig-cli have to show up at sig-usability to get UX feedback on CLIs?  (i.e. what expectations placed on other sigs)

The same question applies to APIs. I don't think we can make an exception on APIs, they are a big part of the UX. 

[Brendan Burns]

Let's bike shed about this in the charter PR that's a better place than you mail thread. I will send a PR sometime today.

--brendan

---

From: Antoine Pelisse <apel...@google.com>
Sent: Friday, June 14, 2019 9:27:31 AM
To: Clayton Coleman
Cc: Brendan Burns; Tasha Drew; Phillip Wittrock; Stephen Augustus; Vallery Lancey; Mike Spreitzer; Andrew Sauber; Dor Kleiman; Jaice Singer DuMars; Rajakavitha Kodhandapani; kubernetes-sig-apps; kubernetes-sig-architecture; kubernetes-sig-cli; kubernetes-sig-cluster-lifecycle; kubernetes-sig-contribex; kubernet...@googlegroups.com; matt....@gmail.com; Lubomir I. Ivanov; Ron Norman; Aaron Crickenberger

Subject: Re: UX working group?

[Brendan Burns]

The (very) rough draft is here:

https://github.com/kubernetes/community/pull/3801

There's some info I need (e.g. github ids and companies for the chairs)

And then there's all the bike-shedding that needs to get done 🙂

Thanks

--brendan

---

From: Stephen Augustus <Ste...@agst.us>
Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2019 10:19 PM
To: Brendan Burns
Cc: Vallery Lancey; Mike Spreitzer; Andrew Sauber; Dor Kleiman; Jaice Singer DuMars; Rajakavitha Kodhandapani; kubernetes-sig-apps; kubernetes-sig-architecture; kubernetes-sig-cli; kubernetes-sig-cluster-lifecycle; kubernetes-sig-contribex; kubernet...@googlegroups.com; matt....@gmail.com; Lubomir I. Ivanov; Ron Norman; Aaron Crickenberger; Tasha Drew

[Maciej Szulik]

On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 6:22 PM Clayton Coleman <ccol...@redhat.com> wrote:

Would the sig be advisory to sig-cli, or would sig-cli have to show up at sig-usability to get UX feedback on CLIs?  (i.e. what expectations placed on other sigs)

+1 for advisory to sig-cli since the overall area is important to our sig.

I'm not sure I'll be able to attend yet another sig meeting given my current tight schedule :(

 

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