KS responses to reverse

[judyorcarl]

Alan Truscott called it the KS heresy that the 5-card major must be rebid.

In your att experience, has this worked out well when the suit is 65432?

In your partner ships do you have a way of escaping the major after

1m - 1M ; 2R - 2M ; 3M - ?

Carl

[Adam Wildavsky]

I've never held five to the six - whether I'd rebid the suit would depend on context. I don't have much experience with it since I have fewer KSU partners each year! Here's a recent deal where we had the auction:

1H 1S

2c 2S

P

https://dds.bridgewebs.com/bsol2/ddummy.htm?club=chrome_ext&file=https://dds.bridgewebs.com/bridgesolver/uploads/6153235ee12cb3.77983079.pbn

I was South, Gerry Seixas was North.

2S is not elegant, but better than 5c. We won 3.8 IMPs vs the field. I might well have bid 3c.

Sent via Superhuman

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[Steve Willner]

On 9/28/21 10:22 AM, Adam Wildavsky wrote:
> I've never held five to the six - whether I'd rebid the suit would
> depend on context.

Agreed. It's not rare to treat a weak 5c suit as only 4c.

I agree with Carl, though, if he's saying he dislikes the method. I
think rebidding the suit should show a weak hand, usually with a 6c
suit. (One may have to rebid a 5c spade suit if opener reverses in the
reds.)

> Here's a recent deal where we had the auction:
> 1H 1S
> 2c 2S
> P
> https://dds.bridgewebs.com/bsol2/ddummy.htm?club=chrome_ext&file=https://dds.bridgewebs.com/bridgesolver/uploads/6153235ee12cb3.77983079.pbn

In pure KS (as Adam surely knows), 2S is forcing and can be quite
strong. If playing my modified methods, the auction would be
1H-1S-2C-2H-3C-P. At MP, opener could consider passing 2H.

--
Steve Willner

[Adam Wildavsky]

What is this pure KS of which you speak? My copy of KSU says "Natural, limited but seldom passed.".

https://bit.ly/ksupdated

Maybe you're thinking of

1d 1M

2c 2M

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[judyorcarl]

I wouldn't say I dislike the method.  I'm just suspicious.

Remember that "the field" will usually not be reversing.  And there the weak suit will never be rebid.

Carl

[Fred.]

I'm not sure I'm on the same KSU page as you are in

https://www.bridgeworld.com/pages/readingroom/kaplansheinwoldupdated.html#B-1:

1m-1M 

2R-2M   B-12:  "5 cards or more; ambiguous strength.  Any other rebid denies 5-card major..."

3M         B-13:  "Nonforcing  Not Monster. 3-card fit."      

I don't see any "seldom passed"

Fred.

On Tuesday, September 28, 2021 at 1:45:17 PM UTC-4 Adam Wildavsky wrote:

What is this pure KS of which you speak? My copy of KSU says "Natural, limited but seldom passed.".

https://bit.ly/ksupdated

Maybe you're thinking of

1d 1M

2c 2M

Sent via Superhuman

On Tue, Sep 28, 2021 at 5:36 PM, Steve Willner <st...@cjsw.us> wrote:

On 9/28/21 10:22 AM, Adam Wildavsky wrote:

I've never held five to the six - whether I'd rebid the suit would depend on context.

Agreed. It's not rare to treat a weak 5c suit as only 4c.

I agree with Carl, though, if he's saying he dislikes the method. I think rebidding the suit should show a weak hand, usually with a 6c suit. (One may have to rebid a 5c spade suit if opener reverses in the reds.)

Here's a recent deal where we had the auction: 1H 1S
2c 2S
P
https://dds.bridgewebs.com/bsol2/ddummy.htm?club=chrome_ext&file=https://dds.bridgewebs.com/bridgesolver/uploads/6153235ee12cb3.77983079.pbn

In pure KS (as Adam surely knows), 2S is forcing and can be quite strong. If playing my modified methods, the auction would be 1H-1S-2C-2H-3C-P. At MP, opener could consider passing 2H.

--
Steve Willner

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[Adam Wildavsky]

There's some confusion here because I crossed the streams. The Subject of the thread is "KS responses to reverse" but in auction I posted opener did not, in fact, reverse.

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[Fred.]

I think that being able to show a fragment with an intermediate 

hand outweighs the problems brought about by the light reverse.

The reverse certainly doesn't cramp responder's rebid any more

 than 1m-1M, 3m.  And, as Adam points out, responder might 

choose to deny a 5-card major holding 65432.  I personally hate

1m-1M, 3m, because responder has no place to go, even with

a decent 5-card M.

When responder has a weak hand and a weak 5cM in a 5-3 fit 

responder doesn't have the entries to take the long cards unless

they are trump, but, at the same time, if the weak suit is not

trump, the losers in the suit are often the same.

The other point is that the light reverse along with responder 

rebidding a 5-card major provides a means of dealing with

a Bridge World death hand, i.e. an intermediate hand with a 

long minor and 3-card support for the opening major.

Finally, your mistrust because the field won't be in your contract

is misplaced.  If you want to bid better than the field, then you 

need to take the downside risks when your contract is not the field's.

Sometimes, the field will get lucky,

Fred. 

[judyorcarl]

My concern has nothing to do with the lightness of the reverse.  It is about the no-judgment reply.

If you have to play at 3M with xxxxx facing Qxx, it's a silly contract whether the hcp total is 21 or 23.  And it will not be duplicated at the other table.

Carl

[judyorcarl]

"the losers in the suit are often the same."  That is the perpetual claim of the don't-worry-about-the-bad-5-3 apologists.

They are the same only if the defense figures out to cash them soon enough.  And then only, of course, if the suit is unblocked.

Carl

On Sunday, October 3, 2021 at 2:44:32 PM UTC-4 Fred. wrote:

[Steve Willner]

On 10/3/21 2:44 PM, Fred. wrote:
> I personally hate 1m-1M, 3m, because responder has no place to go,
> even with a decent 5-card M.

You're not playing 3m very strong, per B-11? If not, you indeed have a
problem.

If 3m is strong, then with a "rescue" response, I might pass -- a system
violation, admittedly -- and with anything else, we're bidding game.
The KSU notes don't seem to define followups, so I'm making them up on
my own. In the "strong 3m" context, rebidding a decent 5cM seems
normal, though I'd probably show a stopper in preference to doing that.

--
Steve Willner

[Rita Rich]

I was taking it that Carl was arguing against the light reverse,

and trying to say that I didn't like the intermediate jump rebid

which is the natural alternative.

Fred.

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[Rita Rich]

I wasn’t advocating seeking to play in weak 5-3’s.    Any system

of rebids over a reverse is going to have a defect or two.  

I was suggesting that a system which helps me find decent

5-3’s at the cost of playing some weak 5-3’s isn’t necessarily

a bad thing, especially since there isn’t always a good alternative

to playing the weak 5-3, and it can score well.

 

Assuming that you are quoting him correctly, Alan Truscott had

to be aware of the fact that bidding systems are inherently imperfect

when he used the word “heresy”.   I don’t have a lot of respect for

that kind of rhetoric.

 

Fred.

 

 

 

 

From: 'judyorcarl' via The Kaplan-Sheinwold Bidding System
Sent: Sunday, October 3, 2021 4:54 PM
To: The Kaplan-Sheinwold Bidding System
Subject: Re: KS responses to reverse

 

"the losers in the suit are often the same."  That is the perpetual claim of the don't-worry-about-the-bad-5-3 apologists.

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[Christoph F Eick]

 

My name is Christoph F. Eick. I am looking for a partner for the Wernher Pairs and Fast Pairs at the Philly Nationals. I can play KS or 2/1 with standard carding. I have about 3500 Master Points and have done well at local and regional tournaments. I also play regularly at popular BBO games, such as the Pavlicek Swiss Team (My BBO name is ceick). If you are interested send me an e-mail: ce...@aol.com. I am arriving in Philly tonight and could also play Monday! I am staying in the Hilton Garden in Center City. 

 

[judyorcarl]

It was as Master Solvers moderator. "XY subscribes to the KS heresy ..."

[flemnevershowered]

well---the 3C rebid is 9 tricks, right?

[flemnevershowered]

I've always thought that sequence showed 3cdS and 18-19, invitational---and playing it that way has gotten me to games others miss