opening with 4-4 in the minors

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chuck and teril swart

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Nov 18, 2022, 7:53:56 PM11/18/22
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Suppose you hold 432,K3,AK43,AQ64
Section B of KSU says to open 1c with (most) 4-4 hands including this one.
But if the auction goes
1c (1S) Dble (P)
what do you bid?
Isn't it better to open 1d with 4-4 in the minors to provide a better rebid?

judyorcarl

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Nov 19, 2022, 8:48:27 AM11/19/22
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Would opening 1D and rebidding 2C over the negative double promise a genuine club suit?  I doubt it.

Consider:

xx
KQx
AQxxx
AKx

After a no-competition 1D - 1H - ?  a 2NT rebid would be an abomination.

With your example, a 1NT rebid is a clear least-of-evils.  It should _not_ suggest a spade stopper.

It's with 18+ and an honorless major that you have to open 1D with 4-4 minors.

That was a point of confusion in HTPWB, where it seemed to suggest that opening 1D and rebidding 2C _showed_ 18.  In the seventies, we were playing against two young KS-ers who alerted the 2C rebid as showing exactly 18.  Opener had 3=5 in the minors.

Martin Ambuhl

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Nov 19, 2022, 2:23:08 PM11/19/22
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No, it certainly is not better to open 1D and no, it would not provide a
better rebid. 1D:1M, 2C showing extra values -- and promising a rebid
-- is too valuable to give up for something rarely of use.

Just rebid 1NT, as you would over 1C:1H. It shows only that. It does
not show a spade stopper. There is nothing to be afraid of here.

Martin Ambuhl

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Nov 19, 2022, 2:23:37 PM11/19/22
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On 11/19/2022 8:48 AM, 'judyorcarl' via The Kaplan-Sheinwold Bidding
System wrote:

> That was a point of confusion in HTPWB, where it seemed to suggest that
> opening 1D and rebidding 2C _showed_ 18.  In the seventies, we were
> playing against two young KS-ers who alerted the 2C rebid as showing
> exactly 18.  Opener had 3=5 in the minors.

I don't have my copy of the 1st edition (1958). It is probably not much
different from the 2nd edition (1963). I suggest you read it again.
Your "young KS-ers" clearly had some non-KS agreement. There is only
one real change in KSU, where the minimum 2-suiter is now shown with a
3-club rebid. It is hard to read the three pages of p. 165-167 to mean
"exactly 18".

judyorcarl

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Nov 19, 2022, 3:16:05 PM11/19/22
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I will check.  But there are huge differences in minor suit auctions.  (And elsewhere.). In 1958, the light reverse auctions are missing entirely.

judyorcarl

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Nov 19, 2022, 4:14:29 PM11/19/22
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Here are the quotes.

“The responder is strongly urged (virtually forced) to make a second response, even if he has barely the values for his first response.”

After 1D - 1S , holding

Jx

Kxx

AQJxx

AQx

“Bid 2C.  You expect to bid 2NT at your next turn, showing a hand not quite strong enough for the immediate jump to 2NT. . . .This method of bidding takes care of the skimpy 18-point hand or the well-fleshed 17-point hand.”


On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 2:23:37 PM UTC-5 martin...@gmail.com wrote:

Fred.

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Nov 20, 2022, 1:22:52 PM11/20/22
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If you look at B-25 of KSU, EK has under Double:

"Negative; at least 4 cards in every unbid major; no relation
to minor; if over 1H, specifically 4 spades. Not limited. 
*Auctions* exactly as if major had been bid."  (Bold mine)

 Thus, in

1D  -  (1S) - dbl - (pass)
2C

2C has the same meaning as in

1D - (pass) 1H  (pass)
2C

I think we are stuck with a 1 1NT rebid and might as well
open 1C.  I do agree that things look ominous for 1N. 
Assume responder has 2S's for the neg.  dbl., advancer has 
2S's for the pass.  Then overcaller is left with 6-7 pretty good
spades. 

So, responder holding 5H will rebid 2D (NMF) or 2H, pass 
with a spade stop, or rebid 2C with 4H and no stop.  Next
question: "Does opener try 2D or pass 2C?"  If responder
has a doubleton spade, we have to have a 4-4 fit.

Fred.
On Friday, November 18, 2022 at 7:53:56 PM UTC-5 chuck swart wrote:

Christopher Monsour

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Nov 20, 2022, 1:25:47 PM11/20/22
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I agree with how this should be bid in KSU.  When the opponents ask for an explanation, or "15-17 balanced with fewer than 4 hearts" adequate?  

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Subject: Re: opening with 4-4 in the minors
 
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Fred.

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Nov 20, 2022, 1:29:32 PM11/20/22
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KSU B-14 says of

1D  -  1M
2C

" Forcing. Strong rebid, like a reverse but does not
promise long diamonds absolutely; guarantees a rebid."

Not that when

1D       1M
3C

becomes weak, 2C has to accommodate the jump shift
hands and becomes absolutely forcing.

Fred,

Fred.

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Nov 20, 2022, 1:59:06 PM11/20/22
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I think it is a full explanation of the agreement.  Of course, if responder
doesn't mention that the bid doesn't promise a spade stop that will
be challenged.  Equally, if responder does mention that the bid doesn't
promise a spade stop, then opener's participation in a runout from
1NT will be challenged.  I get a little tired of the bridge lawyers,
particularly those who think because they are play a form of SAYC
they shouldn't be required to explain anything.

Fred.

judyorcarl

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Nov 20, 2022, 2:32:16 PM11/20/22
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would it hurt you to add "no relation to the spade suit"?

On Sunday, November 20, 2022 at 1:25:47 PM UTC-5 Chris wrote:

Steve Willner

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Nov 20, 2022, 4:39:29 PM11/20/22
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On 11/20/22 1:25 PM, Christopher Monsour wrote:
> I agree with how this should be bid in KSU.

So do I.

>  When the opponents ask for
> an explanation, or "15-17 balanced with fewer than 4 hearts" adequate?

I don't think so. In fact, I alert the 1NT rebid and explain (if asked)
"Values worth 15-17, balanced or nearly balanced, doesn't promise a
spade stopper but usually delivers one." That seems to me both accurate
and required, and I don't think it creates a UI problem for us.

Adam Wildavsky

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Nov 20, 2022, 4:47:00 PM11/20/22
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Standard bidders face the same issue, or nearly so, if not with 44 in the minors then with 3=3=3=4 or similar. We will hold a spade stopper more often, since we hold more HCP, so I see no need to mention its potential presence or absence. 

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jerome keslin

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Nov 21, 2022, 1:27:37 AM11/21/22
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Playing SAYC.
1D - 1H - 1S - P
1nt

Would the opponents not assume that opener has a heart stopper?
But if this is a KS auction, are they supposed to figure out, by themselves,that if they had opened 1nt then it would have said nothing about the heart holding?
So what's the harm in telling them that it's equivalent to their strong nt OPENING?

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Adam Wildavsky

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Nov 21, 2022, 11:47:42 PM11/21/22
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No harm perhaps, but I try to keep things simple. I also don't want to emphasize that it does not promise a stopper when it will contain one at least 80% of the time.

What's your rebid in standard on this auction when you hold Kx xxx AKx Qxxxx?


On Sun, Nov 20, 2022 at 10:27 PM, jerome keslin <jet...@gmail.com> wrote:
Playing SAYC.
1D - 1H - 1S - P
1nt

Would the opponents not assume that opener has a heart stopper?
But if this is a KS auction, are they supposed to figure out, by themselves,that if they had opened 1nt then it would have said nothing about the heart holding?
So what's the harm in telling them that it's equivalent to their strong nt OPENING?

On Sun, 20 Nov 2022, 23:47 Adam Wildavsky, <adam@tameware.com> wrote:
Standard bidders face the same issue, or nearly so, if not with 44 in the minors then with 3=3=3=4 or similar. We will hold a spade stopper more often, since we hold more HCP, so I see no need to mention its potential presence or absence. 
On Sun, Nov 20, 2022 at 1:39 PM Steve Willner <steve@cjsw.us> wrote:
On 11/20/22 1:25 PM, Christopher Monsour wrote:
> I agree with how this should be bid in KSU.

So do I.

>  When the opponents ask for
> an explanation, or "15-17 balanced with fewer than 4 hearts" adequate?

I don't think so.  In fact, I alert the 1NT rebid and explain (if asked)
"Values worth 15-17, balanced or nearly balanced, doesn't promise a
spade stopper but usually delivers one."  That seems to me both accurate
and required, and I don't think it creates a UI problem for us.

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Christopher Monsour

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Nov 22, 2022, 7:33:16 AM11/22/22
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2C

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Subject: Re: opening with 4-4 in the minors
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Adam Wildavsky

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Nov 27, 2022, 1:35:08 AM11/27/22
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That's fair, but I'd be surprised if it's the choice of a majority. A poll on BridgeWinners could tell us…


On Tue, Nov 22, 2022 at 5:33 AM, Christopher Monsour <cmon...@msn.com> wrote:
2C

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Sent: Monday, November 21, 2022 11:47:39 PM

Subject: Re: opening with 4-4 in the minors
No harm perhaps, but I try to keep things simple. I also don't want to emphasize that it does not promise a stopper when it will contain one at least 80% of the time.

What's your rebid in standard on this auction when you hold Kx xxx AKx Qxxxx?


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Christopher Monsour

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Nov 27, 2022, 4:50:03 PM11/27/22
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Just to be clear, I assumed you meant an auction starting with 1C since I wouldn't open 1D holding three diamonds and f8ve clubs

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Christopher Monsour

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Nov 27, 2022, 4:53:19 PM11/27/22
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Also if 1S promised five, I'd be more tempted to bid 2S than 1N

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Adam Wildavsky

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Nov 27, 2022, 5:00:55 PM11/27/22
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You assumed correctly!


On Sun, Nov 27, 2022 at 2:49 PM, Christopher Monsour <cmon...@msn.com> wrote:
Just to be clear, I assumed you meant an auction starting with 1C since I wouldn't open 1D holding three diamonds and f8ve clubs

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Subject: Re: opening with 4-4 in the minors
That's fair, but I'd be surprised if it's the choice of a majority. A poll on BridgeWinners could tell us…


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David Morgan

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Nov 28, 2022, 1:03:30 AM11/28/22
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Things are changing, with more players understanding the flexibility
that a stopper-less 1N rebid allows.  Nonetheless, I don't believe it's
standard so I always alert and inform opponents who might otherwise
assume that partner promises a stopper (as they would promise one) that
it's possible partner has no better rebid.   Especially true when
playing Polish Club: if opener starts with 1C (weak NT or 15+ with 5+C,
or any 18+), the opponents compete at the one level, partner makes a
negative double or bids at the one level, it's support partner or rebid
1N with a weak NT as every other rebid shows 15+ with C or 18+.

Alerting may not be permitted in other jurisdictions; if that's the
case, I'd expect the opponents to explain before the opening lead their
stylistic agreements.  So, I disagree with Adam's approach below

David


On 21/11/2022 08:46, Adam Wildavsky wrote:
> Standard bidders face the same issue, or nearly so, if not with 44 in
> the minors then with 3=3=3=4 or similar. We will hold a spade stopper
> more often, since we hold more HCP, so I see no need to mention its
> potential presence or absence.

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