Verne Inspirations part III - Phileas Fogg and George Francis Train

[John Lamb]

I hope people on the forum find the following attachment interesting and it follows on from my previous posts and the mini biopics of

Newspaper magnate Gordon Bennett - the inspiration for the newspaper reporter Gideon Spillet in Mysterious Island.

The engineers Cyrus Field and Thomas Brassey - the joint inspiration for the engineer Cyrus Smith in Mysterious Island

The young naturalist Theodore Roosevelt (born 1858) - the inspiration for the young 15 year old naturalist  Herbert Brown in the 1873 novel Mysterious Island. 

Incidentally if you type in to Google   'American young naturalist born 1858' it will take you straight to Theodore Roosevelt - that is how easy it is!  Roosevelt's uncle, James Dunwoody Bulloch built the CSS Alabama in Birkenhead. 

Anyway, Nellie Bly is often linked with Around the World in Eighty Days (the recent BBC mini series being a case in point) and she was referred to by Verne, however this is misleading.  Her post novel travels were probably inspired by Jules Verne whereas George Francis Train's circumnavigation of the globe was the real inspiration for Phileas Fogg. Fogg of course is related to Captain Nemo by marriage. 

As in the other real life personalities above, there are strong links between George Francis Train and Victorian technological advances in transport (Clipper ships, trains and trams), Confederates and Unionists in the American Civil War, Atlantic cables as well as  Alexander Dumas, Nathanial Hawthorne and a host of other characters. 

Like Gordon Bennett, Train was a lunatic eccentric who should not be dismissed glibly, for like Bennett (who Train, for a time worked for) he was a brilliant genius who transcends so many of the topics that fascinated Jules Verne.

Re my submission on Raphael Semmes being the inspiration for both Captain Nemo in 20,000 Leagues Under the Seas and Captain Blomsberry in Around the Moon, my new findings about John Mercer Brooke mean that I will present these to the forum in about a month's time. 

'Re Raphael Semmes - 'All the World is a stage and one man in his time plays many parts'

Best wishes John Lamb

[quentin skrabec]

Thanks for this work  , I agree    . Actually, on Roosevelt, years ago, I got a note from a distant relative of Roosevelt (I believe it was a Mary Roosevelt) who thought Roosevelt was the model. Side note - Roosevelt was a big fan of Verne

Quent

[John Lamb]

Yes. William Butcher's dismissal of any links between the Birkenhead built CSS Alabama and the Birkenhead built Nautilus, brought about a particularly disparaging comment from Mary Roosevelt in an email to me. I will dig it out and post it to you.  Roosevelt's uncle built the CSS Alabama. Mary Roosevelt  is quite happy that the character of Herbert in Mysterious Island is based on the young Theodore Roosevelt, a man who her late husband knew. As you say Verne's work is the perfect amalgamation of the Victorian Age in Great Britain and the Gilded Age in America. Think about it, Jules Verne was directly responsible for the rise of Theodore Roosevelt becoming President of the United States by including him in a 'coming of age novel' called the Mysterious Island. What a revelation that would be in the run up to the 200th anniversary of Verne's birth in 2028. Why do many on this forum not want it to be true? Verne changed world history  by helping elect the most important President in American history. No wonder that by the time Verne died in 1905, with Roosevelt firmly  ensconced as President for a second term,  Verne's gravestone would show him emerging resurgent from his tomb, ready for his rebirth as an author. Theodore Roosevelt read every Verne novel, but only one.....the three volumes of Mysterious Island is in his personal library on Sagamore Hill. The first volume of Mysterious Island (where Roosevelt is introduced as Herbert, the 15 year old natural historian, is missing. I leave you to speculate where it might be. Best John.

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[Darek Powell]

John,

While I am a fan of both Verne and Roosevelt, I'm a little cautious as to the connection. I understand Teddy's uncle worked at Birkenhead, but is it your assertion that Verne met Bulloch who talked about his nephew, or that through Bulloch he actually met Teddy? Because at that point, Teddy wasn't yet famous. Please let me know if I've missed something in your research, I just have yet to be convinced, though as you said, I'd love it to be true.

-Darek J Powell

Treasurer, NAJVS, Inc.

darekj...@gmail.com

Matthew 6:25-34

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[James D. Keeline]

Saying that Roosevelt read “every Verne novel” seems improbable since some are rather obscure in the U.S.

It could well be like people who forcefully declare that they read EVERY book in the Nancy Drew or Tom Swift series.  They mean all that they could get their hands on at the time they were of the age to be interested in them.  There are about 650 Nancy Drew books from all of the series but a fan may only be familiar with 50 of them.

As historians, we get enthusiastic about details and associations.  But we are obliged to collect evidence and present it with context, including addressing counter arguments.

For example, it is established that Verne did not read much English.  He read English and American authors in translation to French.  So the key to awareness of these historical figures is to show a Verne-contemporary source, in French, that he could have seen.  Then showing that he did actually do so is the next step.

Some things are documented in texts, correspondence, etc. and others can only be guessed at as circumstantial.

Anything that is contrary to established understanding requires strong proof, not just a plausible circumstance.  The more extraordinary the claim, the greater evidence and persuasion required.

I am neither for or against these ideas.  They could be true.  Or they may be coincidence.

James D. Keeline

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[John Lamb]

Dear Darek and James, thankyou for your replies and your perfectly valid questions. 

Dear Darek, I have no evidence that Bulloch met Verne, I do however have Roosevelt's letter saying he met an 'old scotch baronet' called 'Uncle Robinson' in Paris...this (amongst many other things) is beyond coincidence whether Verne was supposedly elsewhere or not at the time.

However Raphael Semmes did disappear alone in Paris for two weeks with his memoirs in August 1864...logic dictating he gave them to Jules Verne to become the template for 20,000 Leagues Under the Seas. 

The best (modern) thing to do re Semmes Memoirs and 20,000 Leagues Under the Seas, would  give blindly to a plagiarism judge, the 100  passages in Semmes's memoirs that are repeated in 20,000 Leagues Under the Seas and let a learned layman (with no Verne baggage) make a ruling.

 Verne would  undoubtedly be found guilty of plagiarism, ....but one problem ...as both books were released in March 1863.. (another 'coincidence'), there can only be one conclusion...collusion. 

Re Roosevelt not being famous yet (1873/4) agreed but his father Theodore Roosevelt Sr certainly was as 'the finest man in New York'). As an aide to President Abraham Lincoln, in charge of the allotment scheme transferring soldiers' wages to their families his residence was the White House throughout the Civil War. 

Roosevelt Sr loved both Abraham Lincoln and James Dunwoody Bulloch as a brother, in turn Jefferson Davis loved James Dunwoody Bulloch. 

 Roosevelt Senior took the President's seat at Sunday mass when Lincoln was out of town. He was particularly close to Abraham Lincoln. 

I say this because, like the Roosevelts, Nemo is half Confederate (Semmes) and half Unionist (Lincoln, Brown, O'Connell - i.e. the portraits in Nemo's cabin that Verne tells us points to his soul)

Here is what Roosevelt said about his Confederate (Alabama / Nautilus) uncles

It has been my very great good fortune to have the right to claim my blood is half Southern and half Northern, and I would deny the right of any man here to feel a greater pride in the deeds of every Southerner than I feel. Of all the children, the brothers and sisters of my mother who were born and brought up in that house on the hill there, my two uncles afterward entered the Confederate service and served with the Confederate Navy.

 

One, the younger man, served on the Alabama as the youngest officer aboard her. He was captain of one of her broadside 32-pounders in her final fight, and when at the very end the Alabama was sinking and the Kearsarge passed under her stern and came up along the side that had not been engaged hitherto, my uncle, Irvine Bulloch, shifted his gun from one side to the other and fired the two last shots fired from the Alabama. James Dunwoody Bulloch was an admiral in the Confederate service. ...

 

Men and women, don't you think I have the ancestral right to claim a proud kinship with those who showed their devotion to duty as they saw the duty, whether they wore the grey or whether they wore the blue? All Americans who are worthy the name feel an equal pride in the valor of those who fought on one side or the other, provided only that each did with all his strength and soul and mind his duty as it was given to him to see his duty."

                                                                                                           Theodore Roosevelt

 

 ..and here is what Jefferson Davis's daughter said about Roosevelt in a letter to him while he was president. 

 

October 26^th 1907

My Dear Mr President,

My only regret is that my parents are not able to share my gratification, for my father loved your mother, and your Uncle Captain Bulloch very dearly, and even in your college days realized that you were to be a man among men, a leader of those associated with you. With renewed thanks and very best wishes.

Yours very sincerely

Margaret H Jefferson Davis

 

..so Darek, even though Theodore Roosevelt was not famous, both Jefferson Davis and Jules Verne knew that this precocious natural historian .... a child (just like Captain Nemo) of both sides in the American Civil War) a person who would 'dare to do great things'. 

 Dear James,

 

For the last six years I have fed all my findings to Mary Roosevelt, who is very supportive regarding the literary link between Herbert (Harbet) and the young Theodore Roosevelt in Mysterious Island. The Verne  link, I believe, was also known by Theodore Roosevelt's fifth cousin, president Franklin D Roosevelt and his wife (Theodore Roosevelt's niece) Eleanor Roosevelt, together with their son James Roosevelt (Mary's husband).It would be impolite of me to ask Mary Roosevelt why her husband chased her around the world to end up up marrying her, a girl from Birkenhead in the romantic style of Verne and Stevenson.

As you said, my findings could be true or they could be coincidence.....I agree with you, it is a 100% v 0%, ....yes or no, it is quite a simple debate. 

 So I am either totally wrong or totally right, hence my challenge to William Butcher stating that Semmes is Nemo against his statement that Flourens v Nemo. I know I will easily win this challenge, but with massive respect to William Butcher, it has to be done, it has to be won, so that I climb out of the 0%, so that Verne is not forgotten on the world stage in the runup to 2028 (which otherwise he  will be). 

 I think Herbert Lottmann's biography says Roosevelt read every Verne novel, Roosevelt was fluent in French, and as a 'speed reader' read a book / novel a day.  His reading list was phenomenal. He cultivated relationships with Rudyard Kipling (whose poem ''If' is a supposed Roosevelt homage) , H. G.  Wells, James Joyce, J. M. Barrie (which further intrigues me to a point where I dare not enter re Peter Pan), Arthur Conan Doyle and Edgar Rice Burroughs and many others. 

Finally please look at my article in The International Review of Science Fiction .... regards Mysterious Island please randomly grill me on every single location in the novel and in seconds I will give you its Wirral counterpart...and please grill me on every single character and I will give you its real life counterpart (including Top the Dog).

Verne, as an ex theatrical producer combines his two favorite authors....

All the World (Birkenhead) is a stage and one man in his time (Raphael Semmes) plays many parts. - William Shakespeare

I converted Mr. Scrooge by a Christmas Dinner.  It is as much a fact as the Docks at Liverpool—for there is a printed book which cannot be unprinted—that I converted Mr. Scrooge by teaching him that a Christian heart cannot be shut up in itself, but must live in the Past, The Present, and the Future…

Charles Dickens

Semmes will play the alter ego of Captain Nemo in 20,000 Leagues Under the Seas... 

and in Mysterious Island...Semmes will imitate the repentance of Scrooge in a Christmas Carol, but instead of repenting after being visited by the ghosts of Christmas past, present and future and then repenting, he will be visited by three versions of himself... 

Jup... a slave, whose family is murdered by the colonists and made a slave.... so Semmes knows how that feels.

Pencroft, an American honest sailor who has his pride and joy ship, Bonadventure proudly flying the stars and stripes.. destroyed by pirates ... so Semmes knows how that feels.

Ayrton, a repentant pirate who does good things and is forgiven.... so he know how that feels.

As I say, what I have stated above is either 100% right or 100% wrong, which is why, whether I like it or not  I have to challenge William butcher re Nemo being Semmes or Flourens.

Best John 

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[William Butcher]

"both books were released in March 1863": could you clarify?

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Subject: Re: [JVF] Re: Verne Inspirations part III - Phileas Fogg and George Francis Train

 

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[John Lamb]

Just have

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[John Lamb]

That was a typo (which I think you well know) which had the misfortune of playing down the March 1869 link re Semmes and ,20,000 Leagues.  Can you please challenge me on my article in the International Review of Science Fiction re my choosing as one example amongst many, the role of Birkenhead's Bidston Hill as a literary template across three Verne novels...Mysterious Island, The Floating Island and Journey to the Centre of the Earth...with particular reference to the latter. Then we can have a reasoned debate re Semmes v Flourens, which I shall win. Verne is giving a ridiculous amount of clues here and I am sorry that I have to play the part of the little kid in 'The Emperor's new clothes' . Please look at all the evidence I have given you, because eventually you will be arguing against Verne himself, with me as an onlooker ....and there will only be one winner in that one.  Best John

[William Butcher]

To: Mr Lamb

 

Whatever.

I will accept your challenge, despite your great insolence, after you have published twelve acclaimed books.

Incidentally I hope you do not mind if I put your idea about Blomesberry and Semmes in a footnote in an edition I am preparing for Gallimard at the moment, together with your crazy and self-serving notion that Birkenhead is the centre of the known universe for Jules Verne.

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[James D. Keeline]

John, you have made two statements a week ago.  I've been too busy with my day job to deal with them then.  On an August 1 message you stated:

 Verne would  undoubtedly be found guilty of plagiarism, ....but one problem ...as both books were released in March 1863.. (another 'coincidence'), there can only be one conclusion...collusion. 

As you said, my findings could be true or they could be coincidence.....I agree with you, it is a 100% v 0%, ....yes or no, it is quite a simple debate. 

 I note the 1863/1869 correction and that is not my concern with that addressed.

You are very convinced about your findings.  That is OK to a degree but there are certainly other possible explanations for any coincidence.

You say that the only two possibilities are "plagiarism" or "collusion".  It is easy and even highly likely that it is neither.

Verne's documented inability to make extensive readings and communication in English is a major barrier for your two choices.  His English was probably as good as my French.  I can read a bit but any attempt to write or speak French would be more embarrassing than helpful for communication.

In the first decade of the 20th Century there was an interesting example of a story that appeared in many newspapers.  The story related how a backwoodsman was illegally fishing by tossing an ignited stick of dynamite into a lake.  The dead or stunned fish could be scooped from the surface with a net.  The man also had a dog.  The dog liked to fetch.  One time when the dynamite was tossed, the dog fetched it and brought it back to the man.

Of course this is a ready-made plot for a scene in a story and several writers, who read the papers and clip ideas for future use, included it in short stories almost simultaneously.

A wise editor also saw a copy of the story and rejected the first story that came in because he knew there would be others and plagiarism charges made.  He was correct.

This is but one illustration of how an idea, seen by multiple writers, can inspire several stories simultaneously that were completed without knowledge of the other.  They only share the same inspiration.

Editor and writer Leslie W. Quirk wrote of this situation which involved several prominent writers of the time like Jack London, Frank Norris, and MacLean.  Quirk's account was published in The Editor, March 1908.  He mentioned that Matthew White, Jr., editor of The Argosy was one who rejected the story because he knew that as soon as it was seen in many newspapers by writers that other stories would be written.  Out of curiosity, I started to collect images of these various stories with parallel elements the writers doubtless thought were novel.  I also started to gather examples of the newspaper accounts that would have been seen.  Some were of the 1901 period when the multiple stories all appeared.  But one was much earlier — in 1894 (see below).  This sort of thing tends to recirculate, disappear for a while, and pop up again.  The modern equivalent is an Internet meme.  I have copies of these files and can share them but to mention them should be enough to make the point.

Remember also that plagiarism is an ethical question.  But it is not illegal.  You can get removed from a university due to code of conduct (ethics) but you can't be sued for it.

Copyright is a different matter.  This is making a copy of another work, word for word, and claiming it as your own.  This has occurred and I have a couple examples in mind.  One of them included copying a story that was a rewrite of Verne's Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Seas.  I think my article on this was published in Extraordinary Voyages around 2000 or so.

In the period we are talking about (before 1870) there was no international copyright agreement with the U.S.  Thus it was a "Wild West" of the U.K. publishers copying Twain and other prominent U.S. writers and the U.S. publishers doing the same from all of Europe.  The observance of international copyright changes the availability of cheap reprints of novels by several writers when the original was first published after 1870.  Thus, later Verne and Henty books are much harder to find in the used book market because there were not the proliferation of multiple cheap copies.

Sometimes songs are charged with copyright infringement (which is against U.S. law and in many other areas).  In the U.S. these go to civil court where only a judge or a majority of a jury needs to be convinced.  It is not quite like a criminal case.  And this depends on the people involved, including the arguments made.  Almost never is the exact song copied but it is a judgement of how similar it is.  This is rather squishy and cases can easily be overturned upon appeal with different people involved at the next level.

If this were a criminal case, the U.S. standard is to present "reasonable doubt."  By reminding people of documented cases like the dog with the dynamite, most would be persuaded that there are other possibilities that do not involve plagiarism or collusion.

Your claims seem to be possible, even plausible.  But proven is another story.

Enchanting a relative living today with a possibility only goes so far.  Most relatives are not experts on their ancestors.  They are proud of the heritage and anything that enhances the reputation in history will be welcomed.

James D. Keeline

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[John Lamb]

Dear James,

 Thank you for your reply and the time taken in writing it.

I feel it best to reply to all your points after I have made a  detailed submission to the forum regarding all the links between the Birkenhead built CSS Alabama and the Birkenhead built Nautilus in about a month’s time. I will then fully reply to your points by not only resurrecting this thread but referencing my detailed submission. This will be in the wider context of the American Civil War and the technological surge which obviously fascinated Jules Verne as a result of that war.

To reiterate, it is not only the sheer number of astonishing links between the CSS Alabama and the Nautilus (over 100) but also the absolute preciseness of those links which make them, in my opinion the meaningful coincidences (mentioned in a different thread by Quentin) rather than the five or so random 'causation' coincidences in your 'Dog and Dynamite' comparison. 

 There is one point I will answer now however. I do not see how Verne's inability to read English (in this case Semmes’s memoirs) as any barrier, never mind ‘a major barrier’ to my theory of collusion between Semmes and Verne. Semmes's handwritten memoirs could easily have been interpreted / translated for Verne with minimum fuss. One could argue that Verne's whole career of research was time and resource limited by not knowing how to speak English, but he doesn't seem to have done too badly in the rest of his research and I do not think it would have hindered him writing about the CSS Alabama either. 

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe there is only one vessel that Jules Verne ever compared the Birkenhead built Nautilus to, and that was the Birkenhead built CSS Alabama. 

 

One final point, I think greater focus regarding the study of Jules Verne needs to drift towards America, the American Civil War and  technological advances spawned by that war (including the consequential focus on transatlantic cable technology) and how Verne got it so ‘right’ despite, as you say, his not knowing English. 

In my opinion, the real origin of the Nautilus lies, not in submarines but in studying the naval tactics of the Confederacy and the development of Confederacy ironclad rams by John Mercer Brooke and the commerce raider the CSS Alabama by Theodore Roosevelt's uncle James Dunwoody Bulloch. The American Civil War, and the Baltimore Gun Club, as you know, spawned Verne's  From the Earth to the Moon and Verne's veiled and direct references to the three Confederate geniuses of John mercer Brooke, Matthew Fontaine Maury and Raphael Semmes in the final rescue of the Colombiad projectile from the Pacific Ocean in Around the Moon (Chapter XX)... meaning that the American Civil War brought the three travelers  back home safely again. 

 Thanks again for the time you took in writing your reply and the advice given. I look forward to resurrecting this particular thread with you in about a month's time. 

Best Wishes John

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[John Lamb]

Dear William Butcher, regarding your unpleasant comments about me and my research,

 

It is a great (but entertaining) irony that you call me ‘crazy’ and ‘self-serving’ for linking Jules Verne’s inspiration for Mysterious Island to Birkenhead (a place Verne mentions in eight novels), when you maintain that Verne’s Atlantis in 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea is inspired by Arthur’s seat, a municipal park in Edinburgh (your notes on 20,000 Leagues).

Again, (like your belief that Flourens is Captain nemo) there is absolutely no evidence for this, however you are right in saying Verne simply describes a known landscape on land and then imagines it under the sea.  

 Yes, Verne did visit Edinburgh on his second day in Britain, hence your erroneous theory re Arthur’s Seat and Atlantis….. but on his first day, he visited Birkenhead. … you continue to be hoodwinked by the overegged Scottish link.

Anyway, in a previous post, you maintain that Verne had not heard about Raphael Semmes and the Alabama until Manet’s 1866 painting was publicised (and therefore I assume that Semmes could therefore not be an influence on the name Arne Saknussemm in the 1864 novel Journey to the Centre of the Earth) …. this is absurd, how on earth could you know whether Verne knew about the world famous ‘pirate’ Raphael  Semmes at this time or not?

 

Semmes and the Alabama were world famous as early as 1862, especially after his sinking the USS Hatteras in January 1863, this was long before Manet’s 1866 painting and Semmes could therefore easily have inspired several of Verne’s characters, including 1864’s Arne Saknussemm and of course his character of Captain Hatteras, who, in Verne’s 1864 novel sailed from Birkenhead.

 And here is the rub, remember Verne wrote only one other novel, apart from Journey to the Centre of the Earth, in 1864….and that novel started in Birkenhead (The Adventures of Captain Haterras)….so if my links to Birkenhead re  Semmes and the CSS Alabama are ‘crazy’ at least they have some factual backup, rather than your combination of guesswork and Scottish over emotion.  

Raphael Semmes (the inspiration for the alter ego of Captain Nemo) was world famous even before he sailed on the Alabama, due to his previous fame in sinking 18 Unionist ships on his first command the CSS Sumter as early as 1861.

If you do not believe me, I have this quote from a fairly well-known author, written almost as if he wanted to back me up on this…uncanny really.

 

The naval events which caused so much stir were the appearance of the Sumter and her famous Captain Semmes;

….I am trying to look up the name of that author…..er, …..got it….. Jules Verne.

 

I tried to warn you that Jules Verne is giving so many clues that in the end you will be arguing against Jules Verne himself, with me as a bystander…. and there will only be one winner in that one.

Again, please look at all the information I have given you as Verne is giving a ridiculous amount of clues.  

Verne is about to burst out of his historical bubble, but at the moment, you and others ( who are  are too timid to disagree with you  given your vitriol aimed at me) are holding Verne back.

Let him fly before 2028.

 

Best wishes John  

[William Butcher]

To: J Lamb

I don't have time to read protracted messages. (I’m working on two or three books.) In any case I'm not sure how interesting they are to members of the Jules Verne forum. But do feel free to send messages to my private email address.

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Subject: Re: [JVF] Re: Verne Inspirations part III - Phileas Fogg and George Francis Train

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[John Lamb]

Dear, W Butcher, thank you for this. Best wishes John Lamb.

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