Verne character names versus the statistical probability of those names existing in real life..
John Lamb
Don Sample
On Jul 1, 2026, at 9:05 PM, John Lamb <cads...@gmail.com> wrote:
There is a one chance in a ten billion chance that the name John Hatteras in The Adventures of Captain Hatteras exists in real life.
Rafael Ontivero
El 2 jul 2026, a las 3:04, John Lamb <cads...@gmail.com> escribió:the one in a hundred million name is
Garmt de Vries-Uiterweerd
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John Lamb
Dear Garmt, Don and Rafael,
Thank you for your replies.
The hypothesis was that the more obscure the name, the more thought that Verne put into that name, and the more thought that Verne puts into a name then the more likely there is a rational explanation or meaning. The same of course can be said of Charles Dickens’s or JK Rowling’s use of names to convey a character’s personality. It does not mean 'such an unlikely name it must carry a hidden meaning'. Arden and Nadar are relatively common names and it is accepted amongst Verne scholars that they do carry a hidden meaning.
I attach no significance to the name John as explained in the above paragraph re the relative obscurity of a name, and my previous posting.
I think the following is a far more plausible explanation of the surname Hatteras in the Adventures of Captain Hatteras – a surname that basically does not exist in real life, than the ones put forward by yourselves.
The ship Forward in Verne’s 1864 novel The Adventures of Captain Hatteras is built in Birkenhead, where the novel essentially starts. The Forward is constructed under a veil of secrecy in Birkenhead to an unusual design for an unknown Captain (Hatteras) and on an unknown mission, a crew plucked from the streets of Liverpool, and a temporary captain sailing her out of the Mersey past one other vessel, the Nautilus.
Verne's Forward has many comparisons with the CSS Alabama built two years previously in Birkenhead, to an unusual design (retracting propellor and smokestack) for an unknown captain (Raphael Semmes), on an unknown mission (commerce raiding in the American Civil War) with a crew plucked from the streets of Liverpool, and a temporary captain (Mathew Butcher) sailing her out of the River Mersey.
The USS Hatteras was the first and only United States warship sunk by the CSS Alabama in the American Civil War and the sea battle made headlines around the world. On 11th January 1863 Raphael Semmes entered the Gulf of Mexico at Galveston and drew out the United States warship USS Hatteras of Admiral David Farragut’s Gulf Blockading Squadron into open waters. The Hatteras was sunk within thirteen minutes (Taylor 1994 p144). Verne's use of the name Hatteras therefore most likely comes from the warship rather than the cape of the same name.
Verne incidentally used the name Farragut for the commander searching for Captain Nemo’s Nautilus, another Verne vessel built in Birkenhead, in 20,000 Leagues Under the Seas.
The first person to link Verne with the CSS Alabama was William Butcher who stated
The Alabama Affair, mentioned several times in Verne’s correspondence and works (Butcher 1998 p408).
Raphael Semmes is mentioned in two Verne novels, A Floating City (a novel also starting in Birkenhead) and North Against South while the CSS Alabama is mentioned in A Floating City and twice in Around the World in Eighty Days.
According to Jean Jules Verne, his grandfather’s interests reached their heights with two specific themes – the American Civil War and slavery.
Please remember, this post was about a trio of names which basically do not exist in the real world. John Hatteras, Arne Saknussemm and Athenase Doremus.
I have given a detailed explanation of the character name Hatteras as conveying a meaning by Verne which I think is far more plausible than referring to Cape Hatteras and Verne wanting to avoiding litigation over the use of names.
We still have Arne Saknussemm and Athenase Doremus to consider as this posting was really an infinitesimal ‘accumulator’ with a ‘common denominator’ of explanation being Birkenhead and the CSS Alabama.
Don, Raphael and Garmt, I have an explanation for these two names as well …linking to the CSS Alabama and Birkenhead.
I am only too happy to discuss the possible derivation (if any) of other names later in the thread but for the moment let us stick to John Hatteras, Arne Saknussemm and Athenase Doremus.
Don, Raphael and Garmt. Do any of you have an explanation for either the name Arne Saknussemm or Athenase Doremus? as I think you are one – nil down, but there is still the chance of an equaliser and a last minute winner for yourselves.
Best John
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Garmt de Vries-Uiterweerd
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volker.dehs
John Lamb
John Lamb
Dear Volker,
A few quick points.
Given all my Birkenhead / Alabama evidence do you think it is plausible that Verne named Hatteras after the warship USS Hatteras sunk by the Alabama?
Agreed with the name Arni Magnusson ‘fitting’ the novel BUT why didn’t Verne christen his explorer with the name Arne Saknusson (about 95% of Icelandic surnames end in sson).
Why did he consciously and purposely change the ending of the name from 'sson' to Arne Saknussemm? Where did the Semm come from?
With respect I think you are too cautious and too easily draw a line on new theories on his onomastics not going further than Ardan, Munbar, Cyrus Field etc …because I think others have (rightly) not stood the test of time well.
I am not saying every Verne name has a hidden meaning but what I am saying is there are more to be found and I can find a common stem (Alabama /Birkenhead) of explanation for John Hatteras, Arne Saknussemm and Athanase Doremus and they all support each other.
Best John
volker.dehs
John Lamb
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James D. Keeline
John Lamb
Is the following a plausible explanation of the surname Hatteras in the Adventures of Captain Hatteras – a surname that basically does not exist in real life?
The ship Forward in Verne’s 1864 novel The Adventures of Captain Hatteras is built in Birkenhead, where the novel essentially starts. The Forward is constructed under a veil of secrecy in Birkenhead to an unusual design for an unknown Captain (Hatteras) and on an unknown mission, a crew plucked from the streets of Liverpool, and a temporary captain sailing her out of the Mersey past one other vessel, the Nautilus.
Verne's Forward has many comparisons with the CSS Alabama built two years previously in Birkenhead, to an unusual design (retracting propellor and smokestack) for an unknown captain (Raphael Semmes), on an unknown mission (commerce raiding in the American Civil War) with a crew plucked from the streets of Liverpool, and a temporary captain (Mathew Butcher) sailing her out of the River Mersey.
The USS Hatteras was the first and only United States warship sunk by the CSS Alabama in the American Civil War and the sea battle made headlines around the world. On 11th January 1863 Raphael Semmes entered the Gulf of Mexico at Galveston and drew out the United States warship USS Hatteras of Admiral David Farragut’s Gulf Blockading Squadron into open waters. The Hatteras was sunk within thirteen minutes (Taylor 1994 p144). Verne's use of the name Hatteras therefore most likely comes from the warship rather than the cape of the same name.
Verne incidentally used the name Farragut (an American Civil War link first identified by William Butcher) for the commander searching for Captain Nemo’s Nautilus, another Verne vessel built in Birkenhead, in 20,000 Leagues Under the Seas.
The first person to link Verne with the CSS Alabama was William Butcher who stated
The Alabama Affair, mentioned several times in Verne’s correspondence and works (Butcher 1998 p408).
Raphael Semmes is mentioned in two Verne novels, A Floating City (a novel also starting in Birkenhead) and North Against South while the CSS Alabama is mentioned in A Floating City and twice in Around the World in Eighty Days.
According to Jean Jules Verne, his grandfather’s interests reached their heights with two specific themes – the American Civil War and slavery.
Again I find it mildly amusing that in simply extrapolating some of the American Civil War links first identified by William Butcher, I am just hit with one answer all the time ...coincidence.
No A.I. was used in any of the above apart from seeking its judgement on the Verne / Hawthorne quote. I do think however it might be useful in comparing the shapes of Birkenhead Park Lower lake and Mysterious Island as 'raw shapes' and see what it comes up with, together with like for like 'raw shapes' for the other islands proposed by Verne scholars.
Best John
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Tad Davis
Statistics are a means of analyzing and visualizing complex data and systems. But they are not proof of anything all by themselves. Probabilities are a form of statistics but with even less reliability. There is a classic book called How to Lie with Statistics that shows how they can be manipulated to fit any argument.If I may pull examples from another field I know well, the names in juvenile series books can be inspired in several forms. Occasionally a pen name may be selected that evokes a well-known name to enhance sales. For example, several series use the name Barnum to evoke P.T. Barnum, the famous showman. A couple series use "Langley" or "Langworthy" to evoke the aviator and head of the Smithsonian.But not all names are direct ties. For example, a Nancy Drew book has the young sleuth adopt the name "Carrie Fisher" as part of a disguise. But the timing of this is well before the Star Wars actor was known. She was alive but had no career. Younger readers ask if they were making an homage or reference to the later famous actor but it is impossible in this case.There are other cases where the name is a coincidence. Very often a name is selected because it looks good on the page. When a publisher is working from a holograph manuscript such as Verne produced, it is easy to misread a name where regular words can be interpreted from context.There's a 1952 science fiction book in the Winston Science Fiction series called Rocket Jockey by "Philip St. John" (Lester Del Rey). It has an introduction that seems remarkably prescient in mentioning the first man to walk on the Moon. They give the year as 1964 (it was 1969 of course) and the surname of the astronaut is Armstrong. This is a case of a coincidence.As we have warned before, AI systems like ChatGPT take what you have typed in a session and try to say what it thinks you want to see. It keeps you using the system and eventually makes them money or provides data they want for the overall system. Systems like Gemini and Claude are better. Some really like Grok. Which AI you use means a lot, especially when one like ChatGPT has a high propensity for hallucination — which is a polite way of saying that it makes stuff up all the time. By not stating which AI was used or showing the prompt and material provided earlier in the session, it is like turning in school mathematics homework and not showing your work in the calculations.I am willing to use AI extensively in my work and home projects so I am not against it. But it is so easy to use that it is easy to abuse as well.With a certain prompt and supporting documents, you can get it to say anyting you want for or against any position.James D. Keeline
<1952-StJohn-Rocket_Jockey-intro.png>
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James D. Keeline
Sometimes the author is not in control of his character or pen name choices.
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John Lamb
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Rafael Ontivero
Tad Davis
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Rafael Ontivero
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Don Sample
On Jul 4, 2026, at 2:28 AM, Rafael Ontivero <rafael....@gmail.com> wrote:
Then, both Heinlein and you read Hamlet.
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Manuel Guillermo Gómez Paz
I have noticed that some hypothesis, inferences or conjectures have been occasionally objected in the JVF with statements like:
· Why didn't Verne ever mention this to anybody who might have left a paper trail about it - friends, relatives, interviewers, anyone at all? (JVF/2025), or
· I did not find any first hand source by Verne himself (JVF /2026).
(I wonder where the metaphors, satires, allusions and anagrams are left). I wondered also, why analogies like Ardan/Nadar or Dunbar/Barnum (JVF 02/07/26) are not objected despite the fact that (as far as I know), Verne never left a paper trail about it, nor any first-hand source by Verne himself about it or has not been found; and I guess that are not objected because these are simple anagrams. Consequently, this explains –I think–, why anagrams, conjectures or hypotheses, when based on complex inferred or deduced coincidences because paper trails or first hand sources are absent, often become objected or harshly discussed.
I enjoy reading (mainly Literature) and taking notes. For example, this from The Swarm: When a scientist lacks physical evidence he will frequently seek proof in statistics (Arthur Herzog, Signet 1975 (I, vi). But I have read recently in the JVF that
“Statistics are a means of analyzing and visualizing complex data and systems. But they are not proof of anything all by themselves. Probabilities are a form of statistics but with even less reliability. There is a classic book called How to Lie with Statistics that shows how they can be manipulated to fit any argument”.
I can understand that Statistics by themselves are not proof of anything and that probabilities are even less reliable. However I have read that probabilities become more reliable as much as the possibility of being just coincidences approximates to infinitesimal values (close to zero); and I have some annotations (from literary texts too), where: a) probability of being just coincidence is discarded given that approximation, and b) probability of being mere coincidence is accepted because does not approximate to infinitesimal decimals.
But before transcribing my notes about a) and b), I think propitious to quote what scholar Quentin Skrabec (whose PhD minor was in Statistics data analysis) has said about the value of some coincidences:
“Coincidence is a term often used by people without research training to dismiss something, but coincidences can lead to circumstantial evidence that supports a hypothesis. To the researcher, there are different types of coincidences such as random coincidence BUT to launch a research quest -you look for meaningful coincidences… [And] Meaningful coincidences, often referred to as synchronicity, are events that appear significantly related in a way that transcends simple chance or cause and effect. Unlike random coincidences, which are merely chance occurrences, meaningful coincidences hold a sense of purpose and significance for the individual experiencing them. This perceived significance is key to differentiating them from everyday randomness… Some coincidences are perceived as meaningful by individuals, leading them to seek explanations beyond chance this is common outside the hard sciences. This is the very seeds of research” (JVF 04/08/25).
Sorry for this long cite. I wanted to signal previously that probabilities of meaningful coincidences for supporting a hypothesis can be then reliable. Now I will refer to the necessary approximation of meaningful coincidences to infinitesimal values to be reliable. For that purpose I will copy announced cases a) and b):
a) Where the probability of being just coincidence is discarded given that approximation: In Asimov´s The End of Eternity the character Twistell says: “Periodically I studied the probability of my son’s survival and I was pleased to learn that there were no harmful effects in the current reality, with an approximation of one ten-thousandth” (xiv).
b) Where the probability of being mere coincidence is accepted because it does not approximate to infinitesimal decimals. In Crichton´s The Andromeda Strain the Vandenberg Scoop Mission Control sends the following message: “Houston, our computers interpret that as a random event. The probabilities are over 0.79” (xii).
I don´t know if Asimov parameter [0.0001] is valid or sufficient in Statistics for those effects. Coming from him is OK to me. I just wanted to illustrate with literary examples the reliability of probabilities of meaningful coincidences when Statistic parameters are satisfied.
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RFOG
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Garmt de Vries-Uiterweerd
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quentin skrabec
quentin skrabec
John Lamb
John Lamb has offered a detailed reconstruction of how Birkenhead fed into Jules Verne's imagination. The extent to which local landmarks inspired Verne could be used as a boost to tourism and local heritage.
Paul March Russell. Editor of the International Review of Science Fiction.
"A fascinating and revelatory overview of the ways Jules Verne's most famous works were rooted in Merseyside and the Wirral - an insightful scrutiny of how inspiration and the creative imagination work."
Ramsey Campbell – Internationally acclaimed Horror fiction writer and critic. Lives in Wallasey, with extensive knowledge of Birkenhead has written about Jules Verne and like Verne has used Birkenhead Wirral as an inspiration to his novels.
John Lamb’s meticulous studies of Jules Verne’s novels and his knowledge of Merseyside history and geography has uncovered a sustained connection between the author of such classics as Around the World in Eighty Days and Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea and the town of Birkenhead. The Verne that emerges is one deeply engaged with industry, technology, and empire with Birkenhead standing in as a symbol for the immense energies unleashed for good or ill by industrial modernity.
Thomas Dillon. Science Fiction Curator, University of Liverpool.
This is a great piece — thanks for sending. I mentioned the Laird/Verne connection just offhandedly in the book, but I see you’ve really done the detective work here! I had no idea that Verne referred to Birkenhead so often (kind of wish I’d known that when I was writing it). I think Verne’s eye would also have been attracted to the Rams owing to the involvement of the dubious French bankers, the Bravays.
Alexander Rose. Historian and author of The Lion and the Fox: Two Rival Spies and the Secret Plot to Build a Confederate Navy and producer of the AMC TV series Washington's Spies based on his own book.
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