Jenkins-ci.org v.2 (for love or money!)

[Gus Reiber]

Hey all,

   So a related thread exists here, but I have a couple of bits I didn't want lost in a thread. They are:

• We are hiring! I am looking for a contract based web designer with a nice portfolio to show to help author new site templates and do some information architecture for Jenkins-ci.org. If you know someone, you can reach me on Twitter @gusreiber, or email me gusreiber(at-symb)cloudbees(dot-com) or find me on IRC, freenode/#jenkins/gusreiber. You would be part of a fairly tight 3 person team that would include myself, R Tyler Croy (whom you might know from such places as this list) and yourself. Daniel Beck, and KK and the will of the community will also be dropping their input along the way.
  
  
• We are discussing! Even if you don't feel you have the time or qualifications to join the team in exchange for money, we still want to hear from you.

With those two little action items out of the way, here is the gist of the discussion so far....

Jenkins.org has a website (http://jenkins-ci.org/), but it isn't very good, (made evident in part by the fact that I am posting this message to you through this site instead of that one). It contains some documentation, a few blog articles, the Jenkins bits (most importantly), and the plugins directory (next most importantly). It is my belief that this site needs to have more of a social, 2-way communication aspect to it such that it can truly be the mecca to which Jenkins developers turn when they want their soules to be filled with the light of CI/CD knowledge. 

To that ends, I have posted a proposal for what that might look here:

https://wiki.jenkins-ci.org/display/JENKINS/Jenkins+2.0+Website+vision+from+Gus+Reiber

https://wiki.jenkins-ci.org/download/attachments/82673948/knowledge-site.pdf?version=1&modificationDate=1443574130000

...also, the plugin browsing experience really should be a lot better.

To that ends, here is a related video:

http://youtu.be/pMwsZRo5He8

If you've got $.02....

...drop-em.

[jieryn]

My $0.02 is that you're totally on the wrong track entirely. In the
redesign. In the claim that the website is shit. I don't think I've
ever disagreed more with a single person not working at Oracle.

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[Gus Reiber]

Well.... I guess I wouldn't have said it was 'shit'. Hopefully I did not.

But, I am saying it isn't very good.

What about it do you think is particularly good?

That it exists is good. Very good.

...but otherwise, what is your favorite part?

[Michael Neale]

Do you have any specific feedback other than disagreement with an assertion? 

[jieryn]

Frankly speaking, and I'm sorry to be so honest, but your ideas are
quite simply retrograde. If you're going to redesign the site, can you
please not make it look like it was invented back in 2000? Seriously.
Make it responsive by default. Use font icons. Get rid of stapler, use
servlet 3.0. Can we please use technology invented within the last 10
years??? Is that too much to ask?

Look at Bamboo, or Travis. These CI engines are about 9000 light years
ahead of us from a UI perspective.

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jenkinsci-dev/8605cf2f-424a-47ac-a537-c64e5909cc95%40googlegroups.com.

[Michael Neale]

(replies inline)

On Wednesday, October 7, 2015 at 2:22:47 PM UTC+11, Jesse Farinacci wrote:

Frankly speaking, and I'm sorry to be so honest, but your ideas are
quite simply retrograde. If you're going to redesign the site, can you
please not make it look like it was invented back in 2000? Seriously.
Make it responsive by default. Use font icons. Get rid of stapler, use
servlet 3.0. Can we please use technology invented within the last 10
years??? Is that too much to ask?

This is talking about the website (which doesn't use stapler, or any of that stuff), not Jenkins itself (that is another thread). 

 

Look at Bamboo, or Travis. These CI engines are about 9000 light years
ahead of us from a UI perspective.

Yes, see other thread(s), this is about the website, as the links and subject mention. 

[jieryn]

Aside from what I've already said:

* mobile first; responsive
* servlet 3.0/ jax-rs 1.1
* pretend stapler never existed
* pretend our icon system never existed; use font-awesome
* make keyboard shortcuts (see my plugin) part of the base
* make the entire UI based on jax-rs so we can re-skin it easy
* AJAX everything, no more stupid "auto-refresh"
* no more stupid s/m/l icons, mobile first!
* all plugins should expose all info over jax-rs, not stapler

On and on and on and on.... this isn't difficult. Gus, and everyone
else, seem to want to make 1.x+1 and not 2.0. I really don't get it,
sorry. The ideas that I've seen from Gus and company are not good at
all. Why bother with 2.0.

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jenkinsci-dev/f6d1e652-48d5-437b-b245-23fea33b7a73%40googlegroups.com.

[Gus Reiber]

Amen to getting rid of Stapler and Jelly, responsive layouts and fonts for icons.

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[jieryn]

(replies inline)

On Tue, Oct 6, 2015 at 11:27 PM, Michael Neale <michae...@gmail.com> wrote:
> (replies inline)
>
> On Wednesday, October 7, 2015 at 2:22:47 PM UTC+11, Jesse Farinacci wrote:
>>
>> Frankly speaking, and I'm sorry to be so honest, but your ideas are
>> quite simply retrograde. If you're going to redesign the site, can you
>> please not make it look like it was invented back in 2000? Seriously.
>> Make it responsive by default. Use font icons. Get rid of stapler, use
>> servlet 3.0. Can we please use technology invented within the last 10
>> years??? Is that too much to ask?
>
>
> This is talking about the website (which doesn't use stapler, or any of that
> stuff), not Jenkins itself (that is another thread).

Nope. I'm not talking about the jenkins-ci website here. I've watched
Gus' ideas for the Jenkins CI redesign, I shudder with horror. Not
just because he can not pronounce the word 'git'. But also because the
ideas are so useless.. really, we're not doing any improvement here
other than incremental, at best.

>>
>>
>> Look at Bamboo, or Travis. These CI engines are about 9000 light years
>> ahead of us from a UI perspective.
>
>
> Yes, see other thread(s), this is about the website, as the links and
> subject mention.

He started a new thread, I'm replying here. You refer to them if you want.

[Michael Neale]

This thread is about jenkins-ci.org the website and content, mailing lists. Not jenkins the web-ui - not sure if that is clear. 

[jieryn]

Ok, sorry. I really don't like anything that certain people are
putting out. If I misread this, I apologize. I haven't had time to
respond in all the 454 threads about redesign.

I don't like the direction any of this is going and I finally have time to type.

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[Michael Neale]

* mobile first; responsive 
* servlet 3.0/ jax-rs 1.1 
* pretend stapler never existed 
* pretend our icon system never existed; use font-awesome 
* make keyboard shortcuts (see my plugin) part of the base 
* make the entire UI based on jax-rs so we can re-skin it easy 
* AJAX everything, no more stupid "auto-refresh" 
* no more stupid s/m/l icons, mobile first! 
* all plugins should expose all info over jax-rs, not stapler 

Yes to all these (although, the weight of existing plugins is HUGE, there would need to be a huge breaking change, as they all use stapler to contribute to the UI - well not all, but many of the non trivial ones). 

An API driven approach would indeed be awesome. 

[Michael Neale]

On Wednesday, October 7, 2015 at 2:32:03 PM UTC+11, Jesse Farinacci wrote:

>


just because he can not pronounce the word 'git'. 

Linus says it is pronounced "jit". 

[Baptiste Mathus]

Le 7 oct. 2015 6:56 AM, "Michael Neale" <michae...@gmail.com> a écrit :
>
>
> On Wednesday, October 7, 2015 at 2:32:03 PM UTC+11, Jesse Farinacci wrote:
>>
>> just because he can not pronounce the word 'git'. 
>
>
> Linus says it is pronounced "jit". 

Well, might be because I'm french and don't hear English accent subtleties but I hear "Git" like in "guy" here
https://youtu.be/4XpnKHJAok8

(Please note that this is NOT to support the tone Jesse's currently making use of)

[Michael Neale]

On Wednesday, October 7, 2015 at 4:13:55 PM UTC+11, Baptiste Mathus wrote:

Well, might be because I'm french and don't hear English accent subtleties but I hear "Git" like in "guy" here

https://youtu.be/4XpnKHJAok8

(Please note that this is NOT to support the tone Jesse's currently making use of)

Actually I was making a joke based on http://edition.cnn.com/2013/05/22/tech/web/pronounce-gif/ 

Git is from the english slang: 

https://git.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/Git_FAQ

"I name all my projects after myself. First 'Linux', now 'Git'"

[Baptiste Mathus]

Yup. It's even worse than that ;)
http://batmat.github.io/presentations/git-next-level/prez.html#slide-6

-- Baptiste

[Oleg Nenashev]

Hi Jesse,

I have not ever cared how to pronounce "git", so my apologies for the potentially incompetent comment here...

Please note that Gus' work has been started long-long ago before any realistic discussions of Jenkins 2.0, hence the usage of the current technology stack is relevant there.

Your feedback on Jenkins web interfaces will be very useful if you provide it in a constructive way in the proper thread. Every Jenkins user or contributor may have his own vision. The project presumes discussions within the community and convenient solutions. If you feel that something is going wrong, just raise the question and discuss possible alternatives. If you feel you're being ignored in such discussion, raise it on the Governance Meeting. This is the way, which allows to discuss the approaches without personal conflicts.

Seems this thread needs to be restarted

Best regards,
Oleg

среда, 7 октября 2015 г., 8:27:11 UTC+3 пользователь Baptiste Mathus написал:

[Tom Fennelly]

Yep, this thread has been totally derailed. Thanks.

[Baptiste Mathus]

Here's my 2 cents:

I'm currently quite happy with the box on the right about downloading Jenkins. I guess this one could be made even bigger and polished, but basically it has the information I'm generally wanting to crawl:

* Download either LTS or latest

* Changelog (maybe even more importantly. Btw, maybe even more love about the user feedback per version could be given. That feature is absolutely great).

* Must be one of the first things you see when coming to jenkinsci.org (or jenkins.cd or jenkins.build ;-)).

Apart from that, random thoughts on the current one:

* 1094 is wrong (IIRC, almost 1200 currently). We need to either find a way to retrieve the correct value, or be approx. Not displaying a wrong precise number.

* going to the wiki, with different font is disruptive indeed. Would be great 

* Having recently revamped my blog using a static site generator (Hugo), I'm excited about the same thing going on for Jenkins Website. I personnally think this will indeed increase/improve contribution overall.

* Docker package: outdated image too. Now it's docker pull jenkins (but pull isn't going to be enough, anyway :))

* do we really want to keep the "Upgrading from hudson" on the front page in the future?

That's it for now.

Cheers

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Sauvez un arbre,
Mangez un castor !

[Daniel Beck]

On 07.10.2015, at 11:13, Baptiste Mathus <m...@batmat.net> wrote:

> I'm currently quite happy with the box on the right about downloading Jenkins. I guess this one could be made even bigger and polished, but basically it has the information I'm generally wanting to crawl:
> * Download either LTS or latest

I've seen quite a few users who don't know that LTS exists or what it is. So there's still some potential for improvement here.

> * Changelog (maybe even more importantly. Btw, maybe even more love about the user feedback per version could be given. That feature is absolutely great).
> * Must be one of the first things you see when coming to jenkinsci.org (or jenkins.cd or jenkins.build ;-)).

So here's one of the problems: The site doesn't tell you anything when you visit if you don't already know everything.

Want to learn about Jenkins? Go to the wiki (and that has its own problems -- https://wiki.jenkins-ci.org/pages/diffpages.action?originalId=82020311&pageId=82020440). Hope it doesn't advertise Indonesian (?) drugs today.

We have a blog, but its visibility is fairly low -- a section on the index page about the newest N blog posts would be helpful. Similarly with the event calendar, where we've started adding events where people talk about Jenkins to it -- but I doubt anyone has noticed.

> Apart from that, random thoughts on the current one:
> * 1094 is wrong (IIRC, almost 1200 currently). We need to either find a way to retrieve the correct value, or be approx. Not displaying a wrong precise number.

We only consider released and published plugins, not repos. It takes the information from http://updates.jenkins-ci.org/pluginCount.txt; which is generated during update site generation. It's about the same number as plugins in the JSON (depending on which variant you're using), so there may be a bug involving the different update sites we generate, but it's not off by more than 20 or so.

> * going to the wiki, with different font is disruptive indeed. Would be great

Yep, I'm advocating for *some* blessed (well, reviewed) documentation. Some wiki pages (e.g. on reverse proxy) are a sequence of {info} boxes that each were added by a different author, rather than one coherent page. We can, and should, do better than that. It'll also give us a chance to overhaul some terribly outdated documentation -- for example, https://wiki.jenkins-ci.org/display/JENKINS/Building+a+software+project should probably mention Subversion post-commit hook endpoints.

> * Having recently revamped my blog using a static site generator (Hugo), I'm excited about the same thing going on for Jenkins Website. I personnally think this will indeed increase/improve contribution overall.

Awesome! I'm really looking forward to seeing PRs for site content (and even structure/design). I think this has great potential for greater community involvement.

> * Docker package: outdated image too. Now it's docker pull jenkins (but pull isn't going to be enough, anyway :))

The LTS tab has that command (which gives you current LTS); and jenkinsci/jenkins is supposed to be the current weekly. Not sure who maintains that though.

> * do we really want to keep the "Upgrading from hudson" on the front page in the future?

Good point. No. If you're still on Hudson, that train has left the station long ago.

[James Nord]

One thing I just realize is that we have our documentation (javadocs) on a separate website.

Most sites these days just have a "documentation " section which will also have an api section within the same site (and themed in an approriate manner) such that you have a more cohesive view (and have something that actually makes you want to come back to the site.

We should also have separate javadocs for the latest LTS as well as bleeding edge (you could make the case for keeping a certain number of javadocs for prior LTS versions - you can still get Spring 2.0 javadocs online even if it is not supported!)

and (ot as the design goes) ssl-everywhere will be required as Google will start ranking secure sites higher in the future.

/James

[Gus Reiber]

James, what is the URL to the javadoc?

Yes, that should definitely be in jenkins-ci.org and it should be pretty front-n-center, I would think....

[Daniel Beck]

On 07.10.2015, at 17:51, Gus Reiber <gre...@cloudbees.com> wrote:

> James, what is the URL to the javadoc?

javadoc.jenkins-ci.org

[Richard Bywater]

Hi - quick question:

Re "We are hiring! I am looking for a contract based web designer with a nice portfolio to show to help author new site templates and do some information architecture for Jenkins-ci.org. If you know someone, you can reach me on Twitter @gusreiber, or email me gusreiber(at-symb)cloudbees(dot-com) or find me on IRC, freenode/#jenkins/gusreiber. You would be part of a fairly tight 3 person team that would include myself, R Tyler Croy (whom you might know from such places as this list) and yourself. Daniel Beck, and KK and the will of the community will also be dropping their input along the way."

Out of interest, who is "we" is this paragraph? Is it the Jenkins Community or CloudBees? 

Richard.

[Radek Antoniuk]

On Wednesday, 7 October 2015 13:51:15 UTC+2, James Nord wrote:

One thing I just realize is that we have our documentation (javadocs) on a separate website.

Most sites these days just have a "documentation " section which will also have an api section within the same site (and themed in an approriate manner) such that you have a more cohesive view (and have something that actually makes you want to come back to the site.

We should also have separate javadocs for the latest LTS as well as bleeding edge (you could make the case for keeping a certain number of javadocs for prior LTS versions - you can still get Spring 2.0 javadocs online even if it is not supported!)

and (ot as the design goes) ssl-everywhere will be required as Google will start ranking secure sites higher in the future.

Amen to that. The idea of having release notes/ changelogs/ etc per release can be taken from how Atlassian does that on Confluence. 

Maybe just upgrading Confluence and reorganizing the website (maybe with a custom theme) makes sense? 

Regards,

Radek

[Gus Reiber]

CloudBees is going to flip the bill.

The result of the efforts will be gifted to the community.

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[Kohsuke Kawaguchi]

I'm worried that what Gus is saying here comes across wrong. It's certainly not something he and I had discussed.

So let me try my version.

The website renewal project is a fairly significant community project, in an area where we failed to have enough volunteers. So while the whole project will be done in the community (with all emails, discussions, meetings, etc) as it should be, I felt that we needed someone who can do some heavy lifting over a relatively short period of time, such as design, content schema, etc.

So I asked my boss to see if we can fund somebody like that instead of waiting for a volunteer to show up, and he said yes. I hadn't thought about how to do it --- maybe we'd have CloudBees donate money to the project and have the project contract somebody. Or maybe it's easier if we have CloudBees directly deal with somebody to handle such annoyance like contracts, payment, etc.

But the intent is for that person to work directly for the community. It'd be a failure if the whole effort comes across like CloudBees is doing the project and turning over the result to the community. There's no hidden string attached between CloudBees and that designer in question.

Similarly, I was going to ask somebody from CloudBees to program manage this project.

I thought we can keep this all kosher by making sure that every conversation happens in the community.

If anyone has any suggestions to make sure more kosher, that'd be greatly appreciated.

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[Richard Bywater]

That explains it well - thanks KK. 

I think the key thing, especially since a lot of the people around here seem to be CloudBee employees (or employees of other companies who have a commercial interest in Jenkins), is to ensure that things are called out clearly to avoid any potential conflict of interest. Probably best to avoid using the word "we" unless the context is clear and instead spell it "CloudBees is looking to sponsor a designer" and "The Community is discussing" type thing.

I do think that perhaps people within the community should also call out where they are representing a company like CloudBees, some-other-company, etc. to make sure that people are aware of their affiliation. Email address is probably a very minimum as on some UIs (e.g. Google Inbox) email addresses don't show up that easily.

Richard.

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