Happy Holiday

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Marky Jackson

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Dec 26, 2019, 8:27:40 PM12/26/19
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The holidays are upon us and it’s time to relax and look back on the year and at the roadmap for the future.
With [gitter being down](https://twitter.com/gitchat/status/1210326466870882306?s=21) I think the conversation should be had regarding moving off the archaic (gitter/irc) communications used for the community and into a more robust form of unified community bonding. 
I would love to see the recently nominated board move to standardize, not only our crumbling infrastructure but also the means by which we communicate.
With the CDF integration in the works I would also love to hear more about how that looks. More so how this community adapts to that new world (and their use of slack as a communication medium).
We had a lot of emails about the integration and board nominations (along with officers), I personally am eager to hear more about the plans and the way to make rubber meet the road from all newly elected officials and returning ones.
Happy New Years all and thank you to all the contributors for all the hard work you put in to this project, I for one am immensely thankful. 

Gavin Mogan

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Dec 26, 2019, 8:41:34 PM12/26/19
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I would be very much against yet another slack i'd have to join. Especially cause its a closed system, requiring invites to join. Its certainly why i havn't bothered looking into the jenkins-ux sig.

Gitter is nice because everything is public and googleable, you only need a github account, which is the minimum you'd need to contribute to any of the jenkins systems anyways. Though gitter is pretty abandoned, and I would prefer IRC, especially with a public logging bot.

Gavin



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William Hetherington

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Dec 26, 2019, 8:53:06 PM12/26/19
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Echo much of what Gavin said. Chat is a tough problem to solve, you don’t reach critical mass if there is a cost, and there are just so many.

Keybase.io and a private Jenkins team might be a good option?

It’s e2e encrypted, X-platform clients, allows for public entry rooms in what is otherwise a private “team”

https://keybase.io/willwh is my user if you want to follow or chat.

The other nice thing is keybase is well integrated to github too :)

Thanks,

Will

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Marky Jackson

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Dec 26, 2019, 9:04:55 PM12/26/19
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Replying to both Gavin and William,
I think your both points are fair and I completely accept it. I do think gitter is limiting but I am in favor of openness over limiting any day.
Thank you both for your insight and this is what the community needs more of. Open discussion and understanding of all view points.
Thank you both again and happy holidays 

On Dec 26, 2019, at 5:53 PM, William Hetherington <wi...@willwh.com> wrote:



Gavin Mogan

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Dec 26, 2019, 9:10:38 PM12/26/19
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Personally, I'd love to downplay the realtime chat and make the mailing lists a bit more useful. Maybe something like discourse (self hosted, or https://free.discourse.group/) setup, where we can have threads that are easily searchable. Its totally able to be managed by email for those who prefer email, and threaded for those that don't.

I can't remember the last time I did a google search and the jenkins mailing list came up.

But yea, a longer discussion is probably needed.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jenkinsci-dev/E8781E68-9F38-42BD-A6FC-6F7EE7EF56BC%40gmail.com.

Marky Jackson

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Dec 26, 2019, 9:12:57 PM12/26/19
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I am a +1 on discourse. Widely used in another oss project and a great medium.
The mailing list is good but lacks the direct ‘fast’ style communications a project of this size needs. I still use it but it is not part of muscle memory.

On Dec 26, 2019, at 6:10 PM, 'Gavin Mogan' via Jenkins Developers <jenkin...@googlegroups.com> wrote:



William Hetherington

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Dec 26, 2019, 9:35:37 PM12/26/19
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Interesting, I run discourse for a personal project but didn’t think about it for this.... that is definitely another option!

I wrote a plugin for it to do websockety type comms from a chat box, but I haven’t looked at it in ages, it is probably not functional atm.

Marky Jackson

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Dec 26, 2019, 9:39:44 PM12/26/19
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I like using chat bots with Hugo but found it even easier with slack and kubernetes integration but I think that might be over the top.
I do like this conversation though and think it would be worth a survey of sort but that is up to the board and sig leads to try and drive adoption.
I think the advocacy team can help drive this and other topics but the leads of sig’s and the board have the ultimate representation and that was more the logic for my original email, to help the larger community discussion take place in the open.

On Dec 26, 2019, at 6:35 PM, William Hetherington <wi...@willwh.com> wrote:



Marky Jackson

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Dec 26, 2019, 9:41:36 PM12/26/19
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I said Hugo but meant Discourse

On Dec 26, 2019, at 6:39 PM, Marky Jackson <marky.r...@gmail.com> wrote:



Tim Jacomb

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Dec 27, 2019, 7:34:28 AM12/27/19
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Personally I’ve never found the invite system in slack very difficult, (not as simple as straight GitHub integration :( ) but you just deploy an app like 
https://github.com/outsideris/slack-invite-automation/blob/master/README.md, add a badge to your readme and then people self service sign themselves up. (Jenkins UX is a weird one for some reason CDF foundation hasn’t set that up so you need an invite)

I’ve seen it work really well elsewhere, k8s has a very large slack community with multiple sigs and user groups.

Also I’ve never googled something and had a gitter result come back...

Discourse could be useful, as an alternative / supplicant to a mailing list but I don’t think it handles the real time chat aspect.

IRC has a higher barrier to entry imo especially for someone who has used slack or gitter. It works well once you get used to it  but I don’t think many newer projects are using it.

Gitter works most of the time and it’s okay (few annoying issues with it though)

I agree that driving this through a SIG would probably be best, with analysis on what the community wants, along with options out there and a recommendation?

Or different SIGs / plugins keep choosing their own means and it stays fragmented....

Happy holidays
Tim 


Oleg Nenashev

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Dec 27, 2019, 8:46:43 AM12/27/19
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First of all, happy holidays everyone!

I would love to see the recently nominated board move to standardize, not only our crumbling infrastructure but also the means by which we communicate.
With the CDF integration in the works I would also love to hear more about how that looks. More so how this community adapts to that new world (and their use of slack as a communication medium).
We had a lot of emails about the integration and board nominations (along with officers), I personally am eager to hear more about the plans and the way to make rubber meet the road from all newly elected officials and returning ones.
Happy New Years all and thank you to all the contributors for all the hard work you put in to this project, I for one am immensely thankful. 

As a recently elected board member, I agree that the communication problem becomes more and more important. It is NOT my top priority for the record, current Infra and Community Health issues are more important to me.
  • I am not a fan of Gitter. +100 for "Gitter is nice because everything is public and googleable" from Gavin, but it is indeed  abandoned. Issues with notifications and barely usable mobile clients make it a pretty bad default system
  • CDF will not be a replacement in short-term. Their Slack is still in evaluation, and it is a free account at the moment. Until CDF offers a final long-term solution with conversation history retention and easy way to join, it is no-go option for a centralized solution
  • Self-hosted setup with Jenkins LDAP or GitHub integrations might be a good solution for long-term (keybase, rocketchat, Mattermost, whatever), especially if we can offer easy sign-up and access to conversations.  But it is an additional service to setup/maintain, and at the moment the Infra team is quite overloaded with other topics
  • IRC is same as above. It is unusable without conversation histories, and we would need to self-host them.
My preference would be to keep status quo w.r.t this topic for now, and to leave it to SIGs/plugin teams to decide. Once CDF has its own solutions, we can consider adopting them. With the current trends there might be a GitHub Chat at some point ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Best regards,
Oleg
 

On Friday, December 27, 2019 at 1:34:28 PM UTC+1, Tim Jacomb wrote:
Personally I’ve never found the invite system in slack very difficult, (not as simple as straight GitHub integration :( ) but you just deploy an app like 
https://github.com/outsideris/slack-invite-automation/blob/master/README.md, add a badge to your readme and then people self service sign themselves up. (Jenkins UX is a weird one for some reason CDF foundation hasn’t set that up so you need an invite)

I’ve seen it work really well elsewhere, k8s has a very large slack community with multiple sigs and user groups.

Also I’ve never googled something and had a gitter result come back...

Discourse could be useful, as an alternative / supplicant to a mailing list but I don’t think it handles the real time chat aspect.

IRC has a higher barrier to entry imo especially for someone who has used slack or gitter. It works well once you get used to it  but I don’t think many newer projects are using it.

Gitter works most of the time and it’s okay (few annoying issues with it though)

I agree that driving this through a SIG would probably be best, with analysis on what the community wants, along with options out there and a recommendation?

Or different SIGs / plugins keep choosing their own means and it stays fragmented....

Happy holidays
Tim 

On Fri, 27 Dec 2019 at 11:41, Marky Jackson <marky....@gmail.com> wrote:
I said Hugo but meant Discourse
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Slide

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Dec 27, 2019, 10:00:58 AM12/27/19
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Matt Sicker

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Jan 6, 2020, 11:59:23 AM1/6/20
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As an Apache nerd, I wholeheartedly support the use of mailing lists
for communication. The use of Keybase/Mattermost/etc. as a real-time
chat could be interesting. Slack, while popular, is still (and likely
will forever remain) a corporate-centric chat product with features
(and anti-features) optimized around that setting. For example, Slack
offers no way to ignore users or DMs which can lead to harassment
(something Slack expects you to handle within your own HR department
rather than through technical means), whereas every single email
client on this planet allows you to ignore senders or apply filters to
things. For that matter, I cannot organize incoming messages in Slack
to any degree.

I would also posit that heavy reliance on Slack for an open source
project raises the bar to entry for new contributors who might not
have enough time to keep up with the deluge of real-time messages that
chat rooms typically contain.
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Jesse Glick

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Jan 9, 2020, 11:32:02 AM1/9/20
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On Fri, Dec 27, 2019 at 7:34 AM Tim Jacomb <timja...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I’ve seen it work really well elsewhere, k8s has a very large slack community with multiple sigs and user groups.

Yes, and it works well in my experience. Jenkins X uses that
workspace, for example, and it was easy to sign up. +1 for using
Slack, strong -1 for IRC.

Baptiste Mathus

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Jan 10, 2020, 7:59:24 AM1/10/20
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I think a strong concern as it is right now is that CDF's Slack is still on the free plan.

I am going to ask around what are the plan and any ETA for this to be either approved, or rejected.

I would not like us to work on the UX/UI refresh, but see older messages become inaccessible in a few weeks/months from now, preventing us from doing archeology to figure out some design/technical decisions after the fact or so. 



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Baptiste Mathus

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Jan 10, 2020, 9:35:27 AM1/10/20
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Joseph P

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Jan 15, 2020, 2:58:42 PM1/15/20
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Here's a crazy thought, use GitHub?

It's a matter of creating appropriate repos and using GitHub issues / pull requests.

For announcement see

if you need some structure create a repo with the desired content structure.

GitHub can get pretty chatty.
If your discussing a persisted topic, create pull request, add a review to the topic line and let the thread messaging commence 🥰👏

If you need to chat with your team? Create proper team structure and use GitHub Team Discussion (which atm is currently disabled in most teams https://github.com/orgs/jenkinsci/teams/core )

I do not see a need for a separate channel once GitHub's new notifications is out.
Totally loving being in the new notifications beta! 👏

Matt Sicker

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Jan 15, 2020, 4:08:51 PM1/15/20
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How do you opt in to the new notifications thing? I'm only opted in to
some code-owners feature right now.
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Daniel Beck

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Jan 16, 2020, 4:18:17 AM1/16/20
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On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 8:58 PM Joseph P <jose...@gmail.com> wrote:
Here's a crazy thought, use GitHub?

It's a matter of creating appropriate repos and using GitHub issues / pull requests.

For announcement see

if you need some structure create a repo with the desired content structure.

GitHub can get pretty chatty.
If your discussing a persisted topic, create pull request, add a review to the topic line and let the thread messaging commence 🥰👏

 
If you need to chat with your team? Create proper team structure and use GitHub Team Discussion (which atm is currently disabled in most teams https://github.com/orgs/jenkinsci/teams/core )

Disabled for the entire org, because I consider per-repo teams to be ephemeral due to quite a bit of cleanup I did a while back.
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