Button Accordion versus Janko keyboard layout

[gguitarwilly]

Hi guys,

On Facebook I got the question why piano keyboards have not been replaced by more ergonomical keyboard designs, the way pc keyboards are evaluating.

On 16-12-2018 I wrote back:
My guess is there's some advantage in having long keys with a relatively big surface, allowing one to place the finger anywhere on that surface. With only one key per note, the number of bits the brain has to reserve for knowing whereto to direct the hand is limited. Also the muscle memory has to remember less information; less different fingering options for runs and chords, and no finetuning the hand into a combination of stretched and curved fingers.
The irregular keyboard layout offers a clear mental and visual road map, and a number of musical keys are pretty ergonomical: C, F, G, F#. Also the empty spaces between EF and BC function als tactile guides on the keyboard.
Of course there's the well-know downside accompanying these advantages, which is having no similarity in chord-scale shapes throughout the keys, and a poor interval-key position connection.

What are your ideas on this subject?

Willem

[Joseph Austin]

ps. did you really have a go at converting an acoustic piano? I'd like to know where that came to a halt..

I did not convert an instrument.  What I tried to do was convert a Beginning Piano Instructional Method--specifically 

The Junior Illustrated Piano Method by George Molineux

https://www.scribd.com/document/354965555/The-Junior-Illustrated-Piano-Method-Molineux-George-part-1-pdf

I had looked at several methods but this is one publicly available that did not seem to be under current copyright.

BTW, Copyright is another barrier to making music available in alternative notation.

I'm not aware of a simple method to get permission to transcribe copyrighted materials at reasonable cost.

---

I'm thinking we should take a look at totally uniform (12-0 ?), e.g. Dodeka.

I'm becoming convinced that a purely linear keyboard is the best way to translate kinesthetic distance ("reach") into aural distance

for learning to play "by ear".  The challenge for traditional keyboard design is getting the keys closed enough for reasonable hand span

without being too close for fingers to strike one key at a time.

Joe Austin

On Dec 24, 2018, at 6:09 PM, Willem Feltkamp <zwa...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Joe,

I only just discovered your messages, since I hardly use this email address. 
Any reason why you posted your messages as email rather than on the forum?

In answer to the content of your messages: the reason I try to get people interested in developing an affordable Janko keyboard is that at the moment nearly nothing is happening Janko-wise. 
Also, there is no such thing as a Janko piano: the piggyback, the chromatone, the Lippens, the Daskin and my janko piano all have completely different dimensions. Any fingering suggestions would be for my specific keyboard, which is not very motivating for sharing ideas about playing technique.
In order to get people to play Janko and solve these problems, two elements are crucial: it has to be proven that Janko is a viable keyboard layout, by people actually playing it, and those interested will have to be able to get a keyboard somewhere. Of course the keyboard comes first.

At the moment I could not persuade any keyboard manufacturer that there is a market for a janko keyboard. 

On the contrary, less and less people are active on the Facebook page, and Janko/chromatone players have a tendency to disappear off the radar. Those who actually own Janko pianos think it is a good idea to show you can move one interesting chord around, rather than play actual music, or show the advantages of the Janko layout in a convincing way. 

I myself have not reached the point where I feel I could demonstrate these advantages as well as play convincingly on the janko.

The main reason I'd like to make a Janko keyboard a group project is that I don't have the technical knowledge to make one myself, and if I'd have a midi keyboard I could take the Janko outside the confinement of my living room. I reckon there are more people who would like to get their hands on a janko keyboard of some kind, other than the chromatone with its mini-keys.

A simple non-weigthed keyboard could be made very easily, especially using 3D printing technique. Even incorporating weights and levers doesn't seem too complicated. The crucial part is a simple midi interface with velocity-sensitive keys.
I can't believe that it would have to be so hard to get this stuff, looking at today's state of technology.

I've been emailing Evan Kale, who does a lot of tech stuff on youtube. Maybe he could design something. Also I'm mailing with midi-boutique, a supplier of midi goodies. 

Who knows if this will lead to something. 

cheers, Willem

Op ma 17 dec. 2018 om 16:42 schreef Joseph Austin <drtec...@gmail.com>:

Hi,

I think the problem is that the keyboard is only one component of a whole system that needs to be changed all at once:

instrument, music instruction, and music notation.

I spent some time trying to convert a basic piano method to Janko. 

It requires rethinking everything about the way keyboard is taught.

First you need to decide if you want to keep traditional notation and key coloring or switch to an alternative system.

If you choose an alternative system, you have the problem of getting music into the system.

I've tried creating conversion software, but found I spend more time "converting" that it takes to learn to read TN.

I tried converting "automatically" from MIDI, and found that MIDI has it's own problems--it doesn't have all the information needed for a score,

and it requires 'artificial intelligence" to supply what's missing.

Independent of that, the traditional method beginning with "five fingers on white keys" doesn't translate to Janko--

from day one, you need to be concerned with two rows and the 3-4 (major) or 2-5 (minor) diatonic scale split.

Look at any conventional keyboard method: most of the first year is spent learning the idiosyncrasies of the 7-5 keyboard and traditional music notation, all of which will be different in a Janko method.

And even if you create a method, where does the parent find someone to teach it to their kids?

So it has to be a self-learning method, which means the audience will be teens or adults.

Joe Austin

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[gguitarwilly]

Hi Joe,

You write that you think a linear keyboard like Dodeka would be a good idea. 
I've given the matter of alternative keyboard layout quite a few thoughts, and I have come to the conclusion that a linear keyboard, although, for obvious reasons seeming like a good idea, is not feasible in reality.

The reason is simple: too little notes fit in the span of a hand on any linear keyboard.

Dividing the 12 notes over two rows creates an extra dimension to the keyboard layout which has all kinds of disadvantages, which I have described a few times already. Yet it seems the only way to create a playable uniform keyboard.

I tried a piano-like keyboard layout (I made a dummy keyboard) with six long ('white') and six short keys, but that is far from ideal; the 'black' keys need to be very narrow, and as Doug Keislar wrote, on such a keyboard one has to play a lot of 'black' keys. The video of such a keyboard on Youtube, which you probably saw, shows the cramped-looking fingerings one has to use on such a keyboard.

My conclusion after playing Janko for a few years is that some pieces are definitely easier on Janko than on traditional keyboard, while other pieces (mostly beginner's pieces, but also pieces in C) are easier on a regular piano. Also blues is easy on Janko, regardless of key.

I haven't reached a final verdict yet, and I will continue my investigation into the possibilities and difficulties of the Janko keyboard.

cheers, Willem

Op woensdag 26 december 2018 00:19:46 UTC+1 schreef Joseph Austin:

[Jamin Frederick]

Hi there, I don't post here much but I still follow the group and it is always interesting to see where things will go.

I just wanted to mention that in regards to traditional notation, you might want to consider that nowadays it is not necessarily the starting point for all things musical. And in fact, I would say most mainstream music comes into existence with DAW sequencers now rather than note placement software such as Sibelius, where the TN has been more of a first-class citizen. (I am guessing, I am no authority on music composition demographics!) For example, even though I am a hobbyist musician and work with TN regularly, my DAW of choice is FL Studio which has only scant reference to TN. Yes there are some pictures of keyboard layout and chord patterns, but for example only the most recent version has explicitly mentioned a time signature such as 3/4 in which to situate your composition. The patterns used to layout much like any sequencer of the day is not reliant on a fixed keying methodology like the traditional piano keyboard, but each half step has equal and linear placement. In fact the DAW lets you use a Janko layout on your QWERTY keyboard for input, out of the box.

I still use my Chromatone as a midi controller for inputting chord patterns because I find it is the most consistent in doing what I want to do, and I have never even learned the (12) major key signature fingerings for the piano not to mention the hundreds/thousands of chords (I played around on the piano a little but never took lessons). I am not necessarily interested in live performing music with the Janko (although it could make sense in the future), but definitely value the utility of its isomorphic layout for experimenting with chord sounds and connections. So even though longer more ergonomic keys would be nice, that's not really what is important for me at the moment.