DIYVS - A low cost Virtual Studio Device

[Wm Leler]

I'm about to publish this article about how to build your own Virtual Studio device that is less than half the cost, but without requiring anything more than basic computer skills. I am working with the JackTrip Foundation on this. What you give up is a little quality, but it is still good.

Before I do that, I'd love to get some feedback. It is a Google Doc and I would love comments and suggested changes.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jtnWEsLEt3lfJjqtlQriXOR7B5rb0PyMrvU51t1I2AI/edit

The good news is that the JackTrip Foundation has agreed to minor changes to their software to make this even easier and more flexible, and they are also going to start selling pre-flashed MicroSD cards with the same software used by the current Virtual Studio device (see the text highlighted in yellow in the document).

Enjoy!

Wm Leler

[John Dickey Jr]

Great start. Suggested change of “worse” to “better” in your conclusion section.  I will give it another look in the AM. 

John Dickey Jr

1242 Manor Blvd

Lancaster, PA 17603-5921

Jdinp...@gmail.com

717.201.6221

On Dec 23, 2020, at 17:51, Wm Leler <w...@leler.com> wrote:



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[david...@oca.ac.uk]

Hi

 

I think this is a really great idea but I do worry that the costs are still too high and the entry-level too advanced for most amateur musicians.

 

I’d LOVE to be able to use something like this with my community choirs (I’m in the UK – our choirs are really suffering from COVID because the average age of most community choirs in the UK is around 70).

 

I’ve just built a Pi4 with HiFiBerry DAC/ADC card, metal case and the total cost came to just over £200 – the metal case alone was £22, the HiFiBerry card £65 and then they stung me for £25 import duties because they were shipping from Switzerland (and it took 5 days to arrive).

 

I work in the tech sector including 5 years in Silicon Valley for a large tech company (back in the UK for the past 5 years) and I’m very aware of how much more expensive these components are in the EU and how much lower the general tech skills are in the population.

 

The move to a USB sound card is VERY good – this takes a huge cost away both in terms of the audio card and the case.  Quick calculation – HiFiBerry + Aluminium case, £107; regular case £10, Sabrent card £7.99  (btw. £1 = $1.4 US so the audio card and case alone would be $150).

 

There is another issue.   Ethernet.  No-one but no-one will have access to wired Ethernet, at least not near where they would like to perform/record.  If you think of the typical ADSL installation – it will be presented on a “master” line jack which will near the front door of the house, usually in the hallway and that is the combined ADLS router and WiFi AP.  Typical speeds are fine – I have 67Mbit/s ADSL at home – but my WiFi network is HORRIBLE – a quick scan shows 15 SSIDs on 2.4GHz!  

 

I can guarantee that 99.9% of people will have NO idea what an Ethernet cable is and even less chance of being able to get one from the front door to anywhere else in the house (regulations prevent you from moving the master socket in most countries as it is “owned” by the telco).

 

With 4G being essentially free these days, there are an increasing number of people who are ditching wired broadband completely – it could be interesting to include an LTE module and make the whole thing standalone to get over this problem but I don’t know what that would do for latency?

 

It would also be great if a pre-built system could be made available – I’ve looked at the JackTrip Virtual Studio device and it is $149.99 US but then needs shipping to Europe (not currently offered by HiFiBerry but from experience shipping is probably an extra $50-60 and it would attract import duties at between 11 and 17% depending on destination and then an admin fee (DHL currently charge £19.99 per imported item).

 

BTW, I have a University performance class that would love to use this technology and with these changes the price is starting to head in the right direction!

 

David

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[Robert Holland]

I'd echo most of what David has said re community choirs in the UK where age, technical ability and costs are concerned.

The issue of connecting an Ethernet cable is a significant problem here and is indeed very frustrating. For those who may already have suitable computers and audio interfaces the Ethernet patch cable is just "too hard" - the location of their router being the main obstacle. I've not encountered the 4G issue yet but I can see this will be a problem in some communities near here that rely mainly on PAYG mobiles.

Testing JackTrip with my choirmaster recently was interesting. He lives only a few hundred yards from me but might as well be 300 miles away as our packets are being routed via London which is more than 150 miles from where I live in South Yorkshire. Network ping is typically 24ms between us. Other testing I've done suggests this is a common problem in the UK, with latency increasing with the sum total physical distance from London and largely independent of ISP. That said, from the tests we've done the latency should be acceptable in this part of the UK, but I need to get more people to participate to prove this.

I did a 'home build' Virtual Studio recently using various unsupported USB sound cards I had lying around all of which worked OK with a few tweaks to the jacktrip_init.sh file, although no support for web control of volume etc. My results from these have already been fed back via Michael DIckey.

I also bought a HiFiBerry card in the UK to help support other members of my groups who want to go down the VS route. This works very well through my mixer in my home setup. The cost of a metal case is significant though and so I 3D-printed a plastic case base (I don't have a suitable lid yet) in order that I could secure the whole thing.

Eliminating additional costs in terms of connecting microphones and headphones (cables, adapters, amplifiers etc) is important for many choir members who may not have any of this technology except perhaps for headphones which may have come with their mobile phones (support for direct connection of these therefore required).

I'd originally intended to use the VS in small groups of up to six choir members (or otherwise as determined by current COVID restrictions in the UK) but this currently looks impossible so individual sets become more important for the next few months.

David, I'd be interested in sharing experiences of practical solutions for community choirs in the UK and helping to snag any issues which affect this use. I have a JackTrip hub server set up here in Sheffield and also have one available (at short notice) for testing just outside Oxford which is somewhat lower latency (15ms from here - it being closer to London).

Best wishes to all for Christmas & keep up the good work.

Robert 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jacktrip-users/014c01d6d9df%240583b3a0%24108b1ae0%24%40oca.ac.uk.

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Robert E B Holland

[david...@oca.ac.uk]

Hi Robert

 

I should declare my “other” interests.   I’m a part-time researcher into 5G and 6G packet core at the University of Surrey – I’ve also spent 30+ years working in design of the Internet so I know the problems inherently.  I’m a pro musician as well (piano, Bass Baritone, three (possibly more) choirs). 

 

One of the issues you are hitting is due to the anchored nature of broadband networks.  Typically, your home broadband will be “anchored” on a gateway in the centre of the provider’s network and will break-out to the wider Internet there.   In my example, I have two DSL circuits at home (resilience reasons) – I live in Crawley, 25 miles south of London.  ISP a is anchored on Birmingham, about 200 mile NW, ISP B Newbury about 150 miles due West.   Latency between two devices on my desk across that can easily exceed 40ms but both are 76Mbit/s tails.

 

Now move that to the hugely dynamic broadband market we have in the UK with ~200 ISPs and even in a choir of 150 people, very few are on the same ISP.   Even going P2P requires going out to the BRAS, across an IXP and back via another BRAS.   And people change ISPs more than they change their socks these days.   Even if you are on the SAME network, you have to transit the BRAS in the centre – PPPoE terminates in the centre.

 

The same problem exists in mobile networks – typically there’ll be one, maybe two P gateways per country per network and you have to transit the GTP termination at the anchor point to go end-to-end.  Plus on mobile networks you have NAT to contend with – no provider offers static/public IP addresses on consumer mobile plans.

 

People keep telling me that 5G will provide “lower” latency – yes, across the air-interface but at least in Rel.16 and 17 there is NO change to the underlying protocol structure – they are still “mobile” networks that provide mobility by moving the tunnel, not the protocol.

 

You point about the additional costs is VERY relevant – my Pi4 with HiFiBerry cost me nearly £200 to construct but if I wanted to build the whole thing I’d need to add headphones and amplifier, microphone, cables, possibly stand.   That is another £100 easily.   The smallest choir I’m in is a semi-pro chamber group of 32 singers (40 members) – the largest is a very typical choral society of over 200 members (usually around 150 singers per concert).

 

I’ve tried several of the off-line virtual choirs – they just don’t provide the thing that people mainly join choirs for which is the social aspect of singing together.   Most choral soc members are NOT trained/good singers and the kind of real-time interaction that JackTrip offers is exactly what they are craving for.

 

I have a JackTrip hub set up on a VPS in London – about 20ms from here in Crawley which seems very good to me…

 

I do hope we can make something work out of this!

David

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jacktrip-users/CAB_9hjOd8yuWHXYgE2ugCcOk64DNb%3D4i2qU%3Dv9DP9gQYQ0SxwA%40mail.gmail.com.

[Carlos Aguayo]

In Europe, you can pick up the Hifiberry "Elk Audio Bundle" and have the same basic hardware, sans mic:

https://www.hifiberry.com/shop/bundles/hifiberry-elk-audio-bundle/

Carlos

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jacktrip-users/019d01d6da07%243f18bb60%24bd4a3220%24%40oca.ac.uk.

[David Lake]

Hi Carlos

Unfortunately that ships from Switzerland not Europe so EU/EEA countries charge import duties and customs clearance.

This is exactly what I bought and I was stung for £19.99 clearance charge and 17% VAT.

The other problem is that shipping from Switzerland is very slow because it has to go through customs - can easily take 7+ days whereas most of Europe is 1-2 days.

David

Get Outlook for iOS

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From: jacktri...@googlegroups.com <jacktri...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Carlos Aguayo <cag...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 24, 2020 3:27:34 PM
To: jacktri...@googlegroups.com <jacktri...@googlegroups.com>

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[Wm Leler]

Wow, thanks everyone for all the great feedback!

Hi David, good to meet you. Coincidentally, I spent a year working as a visiting researcher at the University of Manchester. I'm totally aware of the great difference in prices.

I have updated the document based on several people's comments.

--wm

[neal rhodes]

As kindly as possible, this is roughly where we were in late October, and we found it just doesn't work.    The Sabrent or UGreen adapter is a crap mic pre-amp.  It is slow.  It is noisy once you push it up to audible levels.  

Our BEST case latency, using an MTA server in Atlanta, was about 24ms.  Using the Foundation server in Virginia and we average 39ms.     Add in the higher latency of the USB adapters, and... MAYBE it works for one of those swooshy oooh-ahhh choral works with no consonants and a slow pace.   BUT, as soon as you throw in a banjo, the latency kills it.   You just        can't       stay                in           time.

So, we returned the UGreen adapters, swallowed hard, and bought HiFiBerry cards.  First the Standard.  Which... doesn't work with PC mics.  No Bias Voltage.  So we sent them back and got Pro cards.

The net result is OK enough latency, good sound.   We'll practice tonight with 8 units, 12 people total, and record our 2nd piece with it Wednesday.   Quality is good enough for church, not what I'd want for a CD.   But the difference is the HVAC noise, dishwashers, etc from not having a pristeen recording environment.  We'll cover that up with a little reverb. 

We found a 3d print file for the HiFiBerry WITHOUT mic input, and modified it to add a slot for printing.  That seems to be ok.   We tested noise with that case, versus wrapping the case in aluminum foil and grounding it.   No appreciable difference.   There's a tiny bit of hand reworking on the 3d case, depending on the PLA you use, but it comes out real nice.

So, we ARE cheap, we ARE working on a budget, but IMHO, The areas you can economize are: 3d print the case. Use a $15 PC Desktop Condenser mic.   Don't buy a cheap power pack; they are often noisy.  

I don't understand the value of selling microSD.  It's cheap and easy to buy MicroCenter microSD for $3 and flash them yourself.   Also, with HiFiBerry you have to dink with the startup to turn on Bias Voltage anyway. 

The only scenario where we'd consider the cheap USB route is a college campus with a JackTrip server on the college LAN.   I will confess, we found that the $15 Amazon Condenser mic was hotter than the $5 desktop mic we tested with UGreen, so MAYBE you might get adequate input level with it.  

Sorry if this sounds harsh.   Just trying to save some heartache later.

Best regards,

Neal Rhodes

Assistant Music Director

Trinity Lutheran Church

Lilburn, Georgia

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jacktrip-users/41913301-4b90-45f9-9432-4f24b5115cccn%40googlegroups.com.

[Wm Leler]

That doesn't sound harsh at all. For your situation, using the HiFiBerry is the way to go. I agree with most of what you say.

I would point out that you are very technically savvy compared to the people I am trying to target with this article (and the article explains this explicitly in at the start, and then in the conclusion). Just remember that there are people out there who are still trying to use Zoom to play music together because that is all that their technical skills (and their time) can support.

I have been told that the JackTrip Foundation are working on getting the bias voltage turned on in the software. Nobody should have to hack the software to get that to work on the stock device.

The value of selling a pre-flashed microSD card seems obvious to me. There are plenty of people who do not want to do that themselves. Besides, there is absolutely nothing stopping people from flashing their own cards if they want (and I will leave that information in the article even after the pre-flashed SD is available).

I also want to add that there are plenty of USB audio adapters that have much better specs than the ones you tried. However, the current jacktrip-init.sh file doesn't allow their use. That's why I have updated that file to allow more adapters. After this gets incorporated into the next release I will update the article to include other audio devices. In particular, people (including me) are having good results with under $50 audio interfaces from Behringer. But you have to hack jacktrip-init.sh before they will work. That hassle will be gone soon.

Thanks for your feedback.

--wm

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jacktrip-users/CAPf%2BAdZbBj35omLKZouaqcpiJDfSQUjSZT-%3DMabwsGHdokoUTw%40mail.gmail.com.

[neal rhodes]

Thanks for the reply.  This is great.  One volley and we don't yet hate each other with blind passion.  

When I do the calculus, the HiFiBerry DAC+ ADC Pro is $15 more than the Behringer UM-whatever.  But it's 1ms latency because it sits on the i/o bus, not the USB.   I don't know about you, but right now, our discretionary recreational budget has shrunk to ... Box Wine, and Bird Seed.    A one time $15 greater cost, in order to shave 15ms of latency forever, is an easy call.   Especially since my BEST CASE latency, if there is ever a local Atlanta server, is 24ms network latency.      If the foundation puts up a server in South Carolina, we'd expect 30ms.     As it stands, using the Virginia server is now 39ms.  Toss in 15ms on the USB adapter and it's a no-go for us doing modest tempo acoustic bluegrass music.

We DO lead a group of musicians with far ranging skills, from 30 years computer consulting to .... unable to locate a email on their phone sent yesterday.  Recording audio on their phone while watching a Zoom session was the far limit.    I DID just finish dropping off another three home-built VS boxes yesterday, and helping them FIND their internet router.    Having ONE box to plug in, with no knobs, no adjustments is the optimal solution.    Having another external box, with knobs is just more complexity.

FYI, we have taken the approach that ALL the VS boxes are registered to ONE user-id, and we manage them all.   Our musicians just know to plug in the power at 7pm.

IMHO, I don't think this will fly if there isn't at least ONE person in the music ensemble with the ability to grasp flashing a micro SD, setting jumper pins, and installing a couple of boards in a case, and testing the result, then visiting the others with a supply of Cat5 cables to play "let's go find the router".

I did a summary report for some grant money we got, and below is an excerpt.   I do think there there are some groups where this could fly, and some where it can't.   The checklist which minimizes cost, and most likely figures out if it's going to work, and if you have the competence/skills somewhere is:

A) Decide on your goals: Do we want to just practice, or also record? How important is recording quality to us?

B) Figure out Likely Internet Latency: Start with the things you can't change: you can't change where people live, and you probably can't change their internet service. So:

1) Pick a server. Go to jacktrip.org, create a user, define a new server. Based on the location for you, you should be able to test your latency. Start the server. Even though you have no clients to access it yet. When you start it, the server display will show a Host IP address.

2) See how well each musician can access this server location: Ok, this gets personal, but you can pay me now, or.... pay me later. From each home location, preferably from the Cat5 Ethernet port on the router, someone should ping and traceroute that server address. Probably best if someone technically literate visited each home with a notebook computer and a long cat5 cable. Good chance to figure out where each router is, that it has a Cat5, how far to someplace to record, etc.

3) Our experience is that the Ping time is going to be pretty close to the Latency. Take the worst case, and see where that puts you in terms of expected total latency, and whether you can live with that. Decide on whether or not to try it.

4) If you are going to go ahead and try it, then I suggest build out two Virtual Studio units.

regards,

Neal

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jacktrip-users/CADDX_n45anR5vmZJ2cOHHtvL9JTi45e%3D2H6R4PaqUBdm%2Btv3RA%40mail.gmail.com.