livestream JT session over Zoom

[Michael Sobel]

Hi all,

I've been attempting to set up a livestream over Zoom using JackTrip, and I've run into an issue.  I searched the forums and didn't see anything similar, but I apologize in advance if this has already been answered and I somehow missed it.

We have JT set up and running between our two locations, and would like to livestream the session over Zoom.  Rather than set up a separate muted Zoom session, it seems I should be able to loop the JT audio back directly into Zoom using the ZoomAudioDevice setup in my Mac's Audio Midi Setup.  I'm running Catalina 10.15.6.

In concept, this should be very similar to routing audio to a DAW.  The difference is the need to use ZoomAudioDevice to directly patch my audio to Zoom.

Here's the problem:  When I set up my Aggregate Device and Multi-Output device in Audio Midi Setup, I can initially designate them as input and output (respectively), using the option to "Use this device for sound input (output)."  But as soon as I click the "use" checkbox in Audio Midi Setup for ZoomAudioDevice (which, among other things, forces Zoom to use my Scarlett as the sample clock), I can no longer set my Aggregate device or Multi-output device as Input and Output.  Input and Output bounce back to one of the other options, such as built-in mic/built-in speakers, and the select option on Aggregate and Multi-Output becomes grayed out.

I hope this makes sense.  Let me know if anyone has any ideas on how to resolve this.  I've spent hours on it, and feel like the solution is just around the corner.

Thanks, and happy new year!

Mike

[Synthia Cynthia Payne]

One way is to use a separate device for Zoom and run a wire out of the
audio port of the Jacktrip machine directly to the audio port of the
Zoom machine. synth

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[Michael Sobel]

Thanks, Synthia. That’s definitely a solution, but I was hoping to figure out a way to do this directly, without converting to analog (the cable) and then back to digital on the Zoom side. But I may end up going that route if this doesn’t pan out.

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[Michael Dessen]

Hi Michael,

On macOS you should be able to do this by using an Aggregate Device and a virtual audio device like Black Hole:

Install Black Hole:
https://github.com/ExistentialAudio/BlackHole

Create an Aggregate Device in Audio Midi Setup that has the following, in this order (they are listed in the order you check them):
Built in audio (has to go first)
Your interface
Black Hole (better last since it has so many ins/outs, easier to keep track)

The built-in is there first because for some reason, if you don't include it, it causes problems (Jack wouldn't start without it, for example, but it does if you include it). You don't need to actually use it.

If you click on the aggregate device you'll see a diagram with the full list of inputs/outputs, based on the order they're listed and the number of ins/outs each has. Note those numbers... If you then set that aggregate device as the in/out audio device in Qjackctl before you start jack, you can then route in Qjackctl (connections window) to get whatever internal routing you need (captures are inputs and playback are outputs). You just have to be careful not to create feedback loops.

So for example, if you set Zoom's input to Black Hole, you could use Qjackctl to route your own captures (probably 3-4) and your jacktrip receive channels all into Zoom by connecting them to the first 2 Black Hole outputs (probably playback 5-6, if your external interface has 2 inputs, or higher numbers if it has more). You'd also need to connect those capture channels to the playbacks that correspond to your interface outputs (playback 3-4) so you can hear it yourself. You could even mix everything first in a DAW (with Black Hole set as the in/out device) before sending into Zoom but you'd have to be careful to avoid feedback loops (i.e. make sure you don't send out of the DAW on the same BH channels you're using on the DAW's input tracks).

On mac, this was all easier back in the days of Jack Router, but on Catalina that's gone for now, so you have to use this kind of workaround. Good luck!

Michael

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[Synthia Payne]

Thanks Michael D. I’ve been playing around with Blackhole and just tried it with Zoom, and it seemed to work! The Zoom channels in Blackhole are indeed 3-4.

However I put my external interface (Scarlett) first in the list of Audio-Midi devices - otherwise the built-in audio is dominant, which is not optimal.

Synth

> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jacktrip-users/D9C1E6E1-6835-43EA-AD8A-E68DD4BC92BE%40gmail.com.

[Michael Sobel]

Hi Michael,

Thank you for your response. I’ve actually already got Black Hole installed. But, the problem is that ZoomAudioDevice must be enabled in Audio Midi Setup in order to force Zoom to use the sample clock from my Focusrite Scarlett 4i4. But once I do that, I can no longer set my Aggregate device as my system input (greyed out in Audio Midi setup), nor my Multi Output device as my system output (also greyed out). Since I can’t do those, the Black Hole connectors don’t appear in my qjackctl graph as system captures or playbacks.

If I unclick “use” on ZoomAudioDevice, then everything shows up, and I can make the necessary connections. But then the sample rates don’t match, and I end up with “Mickey Mouse” audio (since the frequency is shifted way up by the mismatched sample rates).

I tried adding the built-in interfaces as you had suggested, but it didn’t make any difference. Notable is that I didn’t have the same problem you mentioned. I can run qjackctl without including the built-in input and output.

Synthia, it sounds like you managed to make this work. I’d be interested in knowing your setup.

Thanks!

Mike

> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jacktrip-users/D9C1E6E1-6835-43EA-AD8A-E68DD4BC92BE%40gmail.com.

[Synthia Cynthia Payne]

hmmm...I have seen others use the ZoomAudioDevice, not for this specific
purpose, but I have seen it cause issues with choosing ins/outs as you
described.

My setup includes a 2012 MacBookPro and Catalina, so maybe too old, but
the ZoomAudioDevice does not appear in my Audio-Midi Settings, and I
have never used it.

Sorry, I don't think my setup will work for you unless you can find a
workaround for that ZoomAudioDevice. Zoom makes their money from online
meetings and tends to want full control of resources, hence this device.

Please post any updates as I'm sure there are others interested in this,
and I'll do the same.

synth

[Marcin Pączkowski]

Just a quick tip:

I'd suggest using ZoomAudioDevice in aggregate with some "real" device and selecting it as the "master device" (for clock), then selecting "drift correction" on the zoom device.

As for selecting zoom device as default input/output, I believe you actually need to start sharing computer sound from it to become "active".

Finally, note that sharing computer sound actually has a higher latency than regular zoom sound (presumably to make sure the "music" is uninterrupted by network conditions).

Marcin

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jacktrip-users/03663590-9476-4B7A-9777-C621576B3B5B%40gmail.com.

[Michael Sobel]

Thanks, Marcin.  See my comments in line below...

On Jan 3, 2021, at 9:14 PM, Marcin Pączkowski <marcin.piot...@gmail.com> wrote:

Just a quick tip:

I'd suggest using ZoomAudioDevice in aggregate with some "real" device and selecting it as the "master device" (for clock), then selecting "drift correction" on the zoom device.

- yes, this is how I’ve got it set up.

As for selecting zoom device as default input/output, I believe you actually need to start sharing computer sound from it to become "active”.

- I’m trying to set the aggregate device for "input device", and multi output for “output device.”  If I were to set the Zoom device as input/output, then the blackhole IO wouldn’t appear in qjackctl.

Finally, note that sharing computer sound actually has a higher latency than regular zoom sound (presumably to make sure the "music" is uninterrupted by network conditions).

-agreed, that makes sense.

Thank you for your comments, this is an amazing community!  Once I get this working, I will most definitely share my setup.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jacktrip-users/CAEBNZeBb0HKxnsbsg86gKgObVr7Mn_4Tij93M2%2BLcUFZCTPKGA%40mail.gmail.com.

[Michael Sobel]

Thanks, Synth. Oddly, it’s somewhat encouraging to hear that others have had similar issues. I’m running Catalina 10.15.6 on a 2018 MBP, which should appear similar to what you have. ZoomAudioDevice doesn’t get loaded until you try to screen share within a Zoom call, and check the box for “share computer sound” on the window that pops up.

-Mike

> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jacktrip-users/66f71124-8907-a265-112e-674c5bc33bc7%40gmail.com.

[Synthia Cynthia Payne]

ah - ok, one thing that might help is that I always start JACK *before*
Zoom. It seems to give Zoom a primer to follow. synth

[Marcin Pączkowski]

As for selecting zoom device as default input/output, I believe you actually need to start sharing computer sound from it to become "active”.

- I’m trying to set the aggregate device for "input device", and multi output for “output device.”  If I were to set the Zoom device as input/output, then the blackhole IO wouldn’t appear in qjackctl.

Sorry, I meant "output". I'm a little fuzzy on the whole setup, but my point is - have you tried after starting audio sharing in zoom? I.e. start a new meeting (without anyone in it) and start sharing audio.

EDIT: I just checked. Indeed, adding zoom audio device blocks the aggregate device to be used as system default input device. However, you can still use that aggregate as the selected device in a DAW, as well as in qjackctl.

(it seems that qjackctl has a quirk that requires to manually setting the proper number of outputs - in my case my interface has 6 and aggregate device (with zoom) has 8, but selecting aggregate device in qjackctl resulted in only 6 outputs; once I changed the number to 8 manually, I was able to send audio to zoom; it was the second device, so outputs 7-8).

A side point: using two soundcards and an analog connection is really the easiest method to do this (albeit messy on the desk). With the compression of zoom, that short analog connecting should make no difference (I used to be against introducing additional AD/DA in the chain, but 1) that really is easier especially that JackRouter is not available on your system and 2) if you are resampling, you are introducing artifacts anyway. In both cases I'd be hard pressed to hear the difference, especially after it goes over zoom).

Marcin

[Michael Dessen]

Hi all,

Michael wrote this:

> But, the problem is that ZoomAudioDevice must be enabled in Audio Midi Setup in order to force Zoom to use the sample clock from my Focusrite Scarlett 4i4. But once I do that, I can no longer set my Aggregate device as my system input (greyed out in Audio Midi setup), nor my Multi Output device as my system output (also greyed out). Since I can’t do those, the Black Hole connectors don’t appear in my qjackctl graph as system captures or playbacks.
> If I unclick “use” on ZoomAudioDevice, then everything shows up, and I can make the necessary connections. But then the sample rates don’t match, and I end up with “Mickey Mouse” audio (since the frequency is shifted way up by the mismatched sample rates).

In the steps I suggested below, you should not be using the Zoom Audio device at all, and your system audio prefs are not relevant because you're not using them. Also, I was not suggesting using Zoom's "play computer audio" feature, which I think will confuse things in this scenario, and Black Hole will never appear as a named client in the Qjackctl.

To clarify: If you create an aggregate device and set *that device* as the audio device used by Jack (i.e. select it in the Qjackctl Setup window "interface" menu), then once Jack is running, in the Qjackctl "connections" window, all the capture/playbacks listed under "system" correspond to the numbered inputs/outputs of that aggregate device. In other words, what "system" means in the Qjackctl connection window is "the device selected in the interface menu in the setup window." This way, you can use an aggregate device that includes Black Hole (which can itself be selected as an independent audio device in apps like Zoom, a DAW, etc.) to route in virtually any way you like.

So for example, if you have an aggregate device that lists first a 2in/2out interace first then next Black Hole 16 ch., and you're able to start up Jack via Qjackctl with that interface selected, you could do the following:

1. Open Zoom and in audio prefs, set the input ("mic") to Black Hole (NOT the aggregate device you made, but BH itself, only, which for Zoom will mean channels 1-2 of BH, because Zoom can't take in or send out more than 2 ch). In those same audio prefs you can set the output ("speaker") to anything you like, i.e. send it out your built in speakers for example, but be careful not to set it to anything that might create a loop.
2. In Qjackctl connections window, with or without a jacktrip session active, you can then connect system:capture 1-2 (your mics) and any jacktrip clients (jacktrip receive 1-2-etc) to system:playback channels 3-4 (which in this example corresponds to BH 1-2). If BH itself is listed as the input device in Zoom, this will send those channels into the Zoom call.

I just did a quick local test of this, recording a zoom call of myself, routing audio into zoom this way, and it worked fine.

If you have sample rate mismatches when doing this, I'd suggest first going to Audio Midi setup and setting both your interface and BH to the same sample rate there, which should solve it. (Again, I'm not bothering with the Zoom Audio device here in this method and suggest you avoid using it at all.)

Hope that helps,

Michael

> --

>


> Thanks, Synth. Oddly, it’s somewhat encouraging to hear that others have had similar issues. I’m running Catalina 10.15.6 on a 2018 MBP, which should appear similar to what you have. ZoomAudioDevice doesn’t get loaded until you try to screen share within a Zoom call, and check the box for “share computer sound” on the window that pops up.
>
> -Mike
>
>> On Jan 3, 2021, at 9:13 PM, Synthia Cynthia Payne <synthi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> hmmm...I have seen others use the ZoomAudioDevice, not for this specific purpose, but I have seen it cause issues with choosing ins/outs as you described.
>>
>> My setup includes a 2012 MacBookPro and Catalina, so maybe too old, but the ZoomAudioDevice does not appear in my Audio-Midi Settings, and I have never used it.
>>
>> Sorry, I don't think my setup will work for you unless you can find a workaround for that ZoomAudioDevice. Zoom makes their money from online meetings and tends to want full control of resources, hence this device.
>>
>> Please post any updates as I'm sure there are others interested in this, and I'll do the same.
>>
>> synth
>>

>> On 1/3/2021 5:58 PM, Michael Sobel wrote:
>>> Hi Michael,
>>> Thank you for your response. I’ve actually already got Black Hole installed. But, the problem is that ZoomAudioDevice must be enabled in Audio Midi Setup in order to force Zoom to use the sample clock from my Focusrite Scarlett 4i4. But once I do that, I can no longer set my Aggregate device as my system input (greyed out in Audio Midi setup), nor my Multi Output device as my system output (also greyed out). Since I can’t do those, the Black Hole connectors don’t appear in my qjackctl graph as system captures or playbacks.
>>> If I unclick “use” on ZoomAudioDevice, then everything shows up, and I can make the necessary connections. But then the sample rates don’t match, and I end up with “Mickey Mouse” audio (since the frequency is shifted way up by the mismatched sample rates).
>>> I tried adding the built-in interfaces as you had suggested, but it didn’t make any difference. Notable is that I didn’t have the same problem you mentioned. I can run qjackctl without including the built-in input and output.
>>> Synthia, it sounds like you managed to make this work. I’d be interested in knowing your setup.
>>> Thanks!
>>> Mike

>>> Thanks Michael D. I’ve been playing around with Blackhole and just tried it with Zoom, and it seemed to work! The Zoom channels in Blackhole are indeed 3-4.
>>>
>>> However I put my external interface (Scarlett) first in the list of Audio-Midi devices - otherwise the built-in audio is dominant, which is not optimal.
>>>
>>> Synth

>> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jacktrip-users/66f71124-8907-a265-112e-674c5bc33bc7%40gmail.com.

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[Michael Sobel]

First of all, thanks to everyone who offered up suggestions.  It's great to be part of such a supportive community.

All of the ideas were helpful.  I ended up using the configuration that Michael D suggested, and not using the system audio settings or the multi-output aggregation.  Things are now working with Zoom (although so far I've only had the chance to test it with qjackctl and BH.  I'll be testing with JT as well later this week, but I don't anticipate any issues since I've already got that working).  But routing Zoom audio through Black Hole in qjackctl works.  The only problem at this point is that the gain is low on the link from my sound card to the Zoom output.  I've adjusted all volumes controls, but the level is still low.  If I link in BH directly from my Focusrite mic to my Focusrite output, the level is fine.  If I loop in zoom, the outgoing level is low.  The incoming level from the Zoom session is normal.  I'll be playing with it more this week.

 -Mike

[Michael Dessen]

Hi Michael,

Glad it's working. About this -

> The only problem at this point is that the gain is low on the link from my sound card to the Zoom output. I've adjusted all volumes controls, but the level is still low. If I link in BH directly from my Focusrite mic to my Focusrite output, the level is fine. If I loop in zoom, the outgoing level is low.

In the Qjackctl connections window, when you route something on the left to something on the right, it should just send the same signal, so this sounds like something related to Zoom.

Since Zoom doesn't actually give you any option to play back your own audio to your output (because no one wants to hear their own voice played back to them when in a meeting), I assume that you're saying this above based on either 1) doing a test Zoom call with a friend who tells you that your audio level is low; or 2) recording a call with yourself only, then listening back to the recording.

In either of those situations, I think the only way to actually evaluate the level difference would be to switch between the two audio inputs (BH and your interface) during same Zoom call, to A/B them. If you do that and notice a lower signal when inputting from BH, even with your audio hardware input gain dial set in exactly the same place, then the only thing I can think of is to make sure that in Zoom audio prefs, the "auto-adjust mic level" is not checked (when using either your interface or BH), to make sure Zoom isn't adjusting the incoming level somehow.

Good luck!

Michael

> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jacktrip-users/2f42970d-a261-4895-a02d-39e56399a495n%40googlegroups.com.

[Michael Sobel]

Hi Michael,

Thanks for your responses. Please see my comments inline below…

Thanks!
Mike

> On Jan 6, 2021, at 12:03 PM, Michael Dessen <mde...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Michael,
>

> Glad it's working. About this -
>
>> The only problem at this point is that the gain is low on the link from my sound card to the Zoom output. I've adjusted all volumes controls, but the level is still low. If I link in BH directly from my Focusrite mic to my Focusrite output, the level is fine. If I loop in zoom, the outgoing level is low.
>
> In the Qjackctl connections window, when you route something on the left to something on the right, it should just send the same signal, so this sounds like something related to Zoom.

<ms> Agreed, it’s definitely something on the Zoom side, or somehow related to the machine being used to monitor the session. When I link things straight left to right, it works as expected.

>
> Since Zoom doesn't actually give you any option to play back your own audio to your output (because no one wants to hear their own voice played back to them when in a meeting), I assume that you're saying this above based on either 1) doing a test Zoom call with a friend who tells you that your audio level is low; or 2) recording a call with yourself only, then listening back to the recording.

<ms> Yes, (1). There are two musicians playing: one running jacktrip -s, and the other running jacktrip -c <IP address of server>. Then there’s a third person simply attending the zoom session on another machine to verify levels, etc.

>
> In either of those situations, I think the only way to actually evaluate the level difference would be to switch between the two audio inputs (BH and your interface) during same Zoom call, to A/B them. If you do that and notice a lower signal when inputting from BH, even with your audio hardware input gain dial set in exactly the same place, then the only thing I can think of is to make sure that in Zoom audio prefs, the "auto-adjust mic level" is not checked (when using either your interface or BH), to make sure Zoom isn't adjusting the incoming level somehow.

<ms> Yup, auto-adjust in Zoom was un-clicked. I’ll keep at it, I’m sure I’ll be able to resolve it. But thanks again for your suggestions!

Next I’m going to try to interface with Facebook live. I think FB simply uses the interfaces selected in System Prefs:Sound. If I select BH in Sound, then I should be able to route (in jack) the performers to BH and their sound should route to FB live.

> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jacktrip-users/BBCD0F9F-88A6-4423-B85D-BF3FD7316FA2%40gmail.com.

[Synthia Cynthia Payne]

Hiyas,

Thanks for this discussion, as many are facing similar technical issues
porting Jacktrip to Zoom.

I wonder if the options on the Advanced tab of the Zoom Audio settings
would make a difference with the levels, i.e. echo cancellation, "high
fidelity music mode", or "Original Sound" selections.

synth

[Michael Sobel]

Thanks for that suggestion Synthia. Yes, we made sure that those options were all disabled.

> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jacktrip-users/8cf75c8b-58fe-80da-c036-c8aa30983f03%40gmail.com.

[Michael Dessen]

High fidelity mode (if you have it set to automatically turn on "original audio") allows you to send your full quality, uncompressed sound into Zoom, so it'll sound much better for people listening on Zoom, if they have the bandwidth to receive it and are listening with decent headphones/speakers. But it also requires more bandwidth.

Turning off echo cancellation in Zoom wouldn't be necessary if you were muting everyone else on the Zoom call anyway, as you probably would want to do for a concert. But it's a useful feature if everyone is using headphones, because it enables Zoom to have the bidirectionality that we get in apps like Jacktrip. It'll cause feedback problems if anyone isn't using headphones or carefully placing mic/speaker, though....

Michael

> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jacktrip-users/7A3FFADA-E142-415E-85C2-9ABEA0A97CAF%40gmail.com.

[Ben Loveridge]

Last year I wrote up a guide about performing music through Zoom using the inbuilt Zoom settings such as 'Original Audio' and also covered what the effects on fidelity and bandwidth are with the different options. https://le.unimelb.edu.au/video-and-media/additional-media-production-services/performing-music-over-the-internet. These notes are based on when sending sound through an audio interface then into Zoom, not re-routing internally from something like Jacktrip. I generally advise most musicians starting off with networked music performance who are not concerned with super low-latency (ie under 25ms), to explore getting the most out of performing through Zoom first and activate the various music mode settings, then move onto the more complex applications and setups.

In the testing I did, I found there was only a minor fidelity increase when enabling High fidelity music mode, compared to the difference between using the Original Sound feature of Zoom vs not using it. It's certainly there, but as Michael mentioned does increase bandwidth too. Others may find some differences in testing but this was what I experienced with my setup. Here's info from the page condensed below:

Turning on original sound sets the send bitrate at a constant 90 kb/s, compared with a variable bit rate of between around 24 kb/s to 100 kb/s on the default audio mode (depending on what audio is being fed into the system). The original sound setting also increases the 'frequency' or sampling rate to 48 khz which allows for a broader frequency of captured audio. This setting makes the most audible difference to sound quality for musical applications.

Turning on High fidelity music mode increases the sending bit rate up to 154 kb/s and can be heard as minor increase in fidelity.

Ben

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jacktrip-users/DC48FABD-099E-467D-9212-2F8DC7552198%40gmail.com.

--

Ben Loveridge
www.benloveridge.com