110% jib

[ArtandAlice Ahrens]

Has anyone added new track to accommodate a 110 percent jib? The current main track terminating just behind the shrouds just doesn’t look right, looks like the jib will interfere with the rig.

Looked at the angle of the J24, works out to a 12 degree sheeting angle. I am thinking of an inboard track to match that angle. (Best fit to the cabin top of course)

I suspect that with the boat so easily driven and its huge main that the 110 will be the primary jib.

Thoughts?

Art

[Jason Smith]

What is your primary sailing area and average wind speed(s)?

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[ArtandAlice Ahrens]

Melbourne Florida, usually 15-20, we sail in afternoon sea breezes.  Prior owner would just roll up the jib to a smaller size, I prefer a blade jib.

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[Jason Smith]

15-20 true, or apparent?

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[Jason Smith]

And do you fly a spinnaker?

[ArtandAlice Ahrens]

Apparent.

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[ArtandAlice Ahrens]

Boat does not currently have one, but is equipped.  

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[ArtandAlice Ahrens]

BTW, 12 degree sheeting angle shows track 2 feet 3 inches outboard of the center of the mast.

Will see where that ends up later.

Art

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[Jason Smith]

So in my experience with the boat over 15 years of ownership:

Based on your typical conditions, I’d suggest a modestly high cut 135%, perhaps with a slight draft reduction vs normal.

On a fractional rig like the J/28, you want to depower the main first, meaning sail it like a big dinghy: vang on, traveller down, full backstay, Cunningham and halyard tension.  Then go to a single reef.  All before rolling/reefing the Genoa.

The larger headsail helps power through the waves I’d expect you have in a building afternoon sea breeze.  And it will help on the days where the wind speeds are lower than average.  Finally, a 135 could be poled out downwind if needed to maintain boat speed at deeper angles (since you don’t currently fly a spinnaker). Adjustable cars on the track are a nice upgrade that can help twist off the Genoa if needed.

I think you can easily carry this setup all the way to low/mid 20s apparent.

North 3di Nordac 330 or 370 has good performance to value, but go with your preferred sailmaker.

Also, you don’t need to drill more holes in the boat :)  

Just my $0.02….so feel free to ignore me, and I am hopeful others will weigh in too.

Good luck.

Jason

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[Capt. Steve]

We have used a 135 for the last ten years or so on Mobile Bay with afternoon sea breeze SW at 18.  Not too much heel for upwind.  A 110 will be pretty useless going home.  If you are a new sailor, consider using a preventer on your runs.

Steve McClure

(251) 459-2441

stevemc...@gmail.com

 

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[ArtandAlice Ahrens]

Thanks for the inputs.  

Art

Btw 40+ years racing in J24s. But 4 years in the 28, all cruising till now

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[Gregory Urban]

My prior boat was an S2 27, which was 2 feet shorter, 2800 pounds lighter, and had a shoal draft keel of 3’9”. It had the same sized foretriangle as the J28 and we sailed with a 140% jib. I think 110% is pretty conservative in that wind range  

Regardless, the little extra pointing ability you might gain with an inboard lead probably isn’t worth the effort. Note, the J/24 job is less than 100%. 

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[Frank Schursky]

My father put a self tacking 100% jib on his J-28 when I was in high school. I always wanted to put up the bigger sail but she was very easy to sail. She wasn’t phrf fast but really made the boat easy. We could easily sail in 20 knots with no reef and would just depower the main with the backstay. I won’t be doing this on my boat but the boat definitely performed well with a smaller jib kind of like the newer J’s since she is such a main driven boat and fractional. If you’re looking for things to be a little easier for just day sailing you definitely won’t hate it. On very light days you will miss the bigger head sail but you can always do a sail change on a light winded day. This will definitely make it a bit easier for the crew but won’t be as exciting on moderate winded days of 12 knots. Just my experience but at the same time I won’t be doing the same as I race her and enjoy the bigger Jenny’s.

Frank

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[Gregory Urban]

In the time it took me to peck out a half-good answer on my phone, 3 people gave better responses!

First, I think the J/24 is 100% (not less as I stated earlier). Eating ramen and typing don’t mix.

Second, I, too, have a high cut 135% headsail. We did the sea trials in ~18knots true on LI sound and it was a pretty nice sail. We had a windy fall here on the Chesapeake, and I singe-handed in ~20knots a couple of times. I think slightly tighter rig-tune and judicious use of the backstay and a 120-135% would be pleasant in your conditions. 

Seeing you have J/24 experience none of this is new to you! But as I said in my earlier email, I doubt you will see much benefit from an inboard track. The theoretical better pointing probably isn’t going to materialize with practical sailing improvements.

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[ArtandAlice Ahrens]

Folks with a 135, how did you find the boats pointing ability?  My history with that size is not good.  I owned a J30 and used a 145% for a number 2, which worked out to the J24 number 1.  Was very effective and pointed well.  Does a high clued 135 point well?  My limited experience with the 28 actually reminds me of a Star boat rather than a 24.  Take her out with my wife, sail it like a Laser under main alone, performs quite well.  So, my feeling is that with the huge main, the boat shouldn’t need a large jib to point well upwind.  I may be full of it, but with Johnstone recommending that when cruising the jib isn’t needed, main is sufficient, leads me to think that the 100 with the clew at the deck is the way to go.

Art

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[Frank Schursky]

Hi Art, 

She points very well with the 135. In my phrf racing I never have trouble going upwind against the other boats either with the 120 or 135 I have. If I have the 120 up I have a tough time staying with the pack down wind especially if the wind dies down so I’m going to be running the 135 going forward (needed to repair it). If you are just day sailing with the wife I think you will have no problem with the 110. It’s basically just a slight reefed but the main drives the boat as you said. Like I mentioned my Dad put a self tacking 100 jib and put the track on the cabin top behind the hatch so it had a great angle on it. It worked out great and was a pleasure to sail but we didn’t do any racing. If you’re racing the boat will be underpowered even with the extra seconds because of the light air and down wind performance. If you are just enjoying the boat I think you will love the ease of the 110 and the main sail will power you up plenty. I would actually love to have a nice 110 or 120 for really heavy days as my smaller sail is blown out now. This would allow me to run a full main almost always.

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[Marie Snow]

I frequently sail in 15-18kts (apparent) and the boat handles very well, with myself and 22yr old son.  We have a 135% jib.   I never roll the jib in part way (like some do to reef it).  I always sail with full jib and usually a full main.  If it gets above 18-20kts, I will reef the main. 

We sail out of North Cape Y.C. on Lake Erie. 

 

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Regards,

Marie Snow

hull#34- Ensueño

 

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[Robert Whitehurst]

I’m now sailing Jason’s old boat, with the sails that it came with.  I came to the J-28 from a Tartan 30.  On the Tartan 30, a weatherly hull design with a masthead rig, relatively large mainsail, I normally went to a reef in the main first, and avoided overshooting the headsail.  With the masthead rig and stout mast (read: phone pole), aft stay adjustment was not really needed in most cases.  I didn’t even have adjustment other than the turnbuckle.  But I learned after the first year or so that the main trim and reef were the key to keeping the boat on its feet and avoiding excess weather helm.  Also, when I bought new genoa and main, I insisted with the sailmaker to give me sail shapes that had the draft built in to be further forward.

Fast forward to the J-28, with a fractional rig, skinny mast and even bigger main relative to the foresail, I’ve learned that to get good performance to weather, the first thing is to get tension on the aft stay and make sure the cunningham is fairly tight.  As the breeze rises into the teens, I put more tension on the aft stay, as in, pull for all I’m worth on it.  Then, the main reef.  That big main inflicts some big weather helm if it’s overpowered.  My feeling is the J-28, with a fairly slim keel and spade rudder, doesn’t like being pinched to windward. The Tartan, while a performance boat, has a thicker keel and skeg hung rudder so pinching up was more doable.  I’m having to learn to use dinghy style, getting some boat speed up off the wind and then work up to windward using the mainsheet for the leech trim and the traveler for the main angle of attack.  That means tight jib trim is not the first priority, so blade or overlapping jib, I don’t know that the need of tighter sheeting angles is frequent enough to add tracks.  For occasional needs, I might use a snatch block to tweak the lead in.  

Downwind, I’m using the cruising spinnaker more and am shopping for symmetric spinnaker and pole gear.

Brad Whitehurst

Ardea (fmr. Compass Rose)

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[ArtandAlice Ahrens]

Robert,

Couple of thoughts.  With old IOR masthead designs, Lowell North, (yes THAT Lowell North) admitted that he made a math error when he wrote his first recommendation to reef the main with a large Genoa.  He determined that the mainsail provided the horsepower to drive the boat and the proper way to reduce sail in a blow was to go to a smaller jib.  My experience has borne this out, both in the J-24 and masthead MORC boats such as a Soverel 26 and 30.  My mainsail does NOT have any reef points, it is a North carbon laminate main cloth.  What I have found to be fast in my experience is to use a 100% jib and a full main until 30kts.  Flatten the main by using backstay, Cunningham and vang and drop the traveller just about all of the way down.  Do not try to point, but foot and the additional lift from the keel will provide upwind pointing.  I sail by heel angle, not by jib telltales.  

Having said that, as you point out, the J28 is a fractional, much more extreme of a fractional rig than any other J boat that I am aware of, including the all out racing designs.  Also, initial stability is not as high as the racing designs (except for the J27 perhaps) so the boat is initially a bit tender.  In fact I find that the boat sails more like a Star boat than.a standard J that I am used to.  Having said that, the problem is with the location of the track just behind the shrouds, making an inboard lead difficult, and the location of the cabin house.  I too am without a spinnaker, and determining whether to go symmetrical or asymmetrical.

I am getting talked into the 120 or 135, but I feel that that is a compromise since I may not be able to drop the traveler as much as I would like to in a blow.

Maybe I am asking too much of the boat, I should just race for fun and mostly cruise.  

Art

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[B Whitehurst]

It may be that the high modulus mainsail like the carbon laminate makes trim choices a bit different also. And obviously, the absence of reef points.  I’ve always had white sails, like the NorDac on this boat, with 2 reefs for the main.  Also, I think the T30 was less influenced by IOR than many boats of the time, so it doesn’t have the dramatic hull pinches or tall skinny main that a lot of IOR boats had.  Really a very “healthy” moderate design with a distinct classic S&S flavor.  It has reasonable form stability and almost 5 tons displacement with a lot of ballast.  I had a 150% genoa but mostly that was for milder summer sailing and wasn’t built heavy enough to carry above 18 knots apparent.  Mostly it was the 135% fall and spring. And with a rudder edge-mounted to a full length skeg, it really loaded up the tiller if you let the center of pressure get too aft, so it rewarded relatively early main reefs.

The J-28 with a wheel and balanced spade rudder makes for a very different feel.  I’m still getting used to it, but it does seem to tolerate weather helm more than my T30.  At least the helm load isn’t as noticeable to me, so I have to pay attention to other signs like heel to adjust to the breeze.

With a carbon main, you may well have the opportunity in high breeze to get the J-28 moving fast enough hard on the wind to benefit from the chance to fly a working jib tightly.  Also, mine has full battens in the main which may be limiting the trim flexibility.  I wonder if it might be possible to estimate the lead position for a given working jib well enough to just have a single stand up block each side and not fuss with mounting tracks and blocks (fewer holes in the cabin roof). 

 I raced my T30 some but I’m not likely to race the J-28 so I’m trying not to get sucked into big mod jobs this time around, but if  I were in the circumstance of flying non-overlapping headsails, it’d be something I’d think about.    

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