Neurofeedback and ECT

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Saul Rosenthal, PhD

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Jun 21, 2022, 7:05:33 AM6/21/22
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Greetings all,

I was referred a teenager with refractor depression. After several antidepressants, some mood stabilizers, and ketamine without good effect, the family decided to try ECT. I’m guessing it’s not worth starting until after the ECT is finished (although it might be interesting to have a pre- and post-ECT Q).

Any thoughts or ideas about neurofeedback training in this context?

Thanks,

Saul


---------------------------------------

Saul Rosenthal, PhD

Licensed Psychologist

Fellow, Association for Applied Psychophysiology and Biofeedback

Board Certified in Biofeedback, HRV Biofeedback, and Neurofeedback



617 340-2180


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J Lucas Koberda, MD,PhD,

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Jun 21, 2022, 11:03:29 AM6/21/22
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I would consider doing Q and NFB before ECT. NFB is very gentle comparing to ECT. Then I would try TMS before ECT as well.

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Mike Griffin

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Jun 21, 2022, 12:04:28 PM6/21/22
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Tanju Surmeli

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Jun 21, 2022, 12:06:07 PM6/21/22
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I wouldn’t recommend ECT! ECT may reduce plasticity of the brain. So you may not get good results with NF after ECT. I have treated refractory cases with QEEG guided neurofeedback and those cases got better for good w/o meds or ECT. 
Tanju Surmeli
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/electroconvulsive-therapy-brain-mental-health-b2095155.html




On 21 Jun 2022, at 18:03, 'J Lucas Koberda, MD,PhD,' via ISNR_Members_Forum <isnr_memb...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

 I would consider doing Q and NFB before ECT. NFB is very gentle comparing to ECT. Then I would try TMS before ECT as well.

Dr LOREN PEDERSEN

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Jun 21, 2022, 12:54:46 PM6/21/22
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Saul,

There are less invasive alternatives than ECT. Does the family know of rTMS? It is safer and FDA approved for refractory depression. ECT requires anesthésia to administrer, induces seizures, and can have negative cognitive effects and memory loss. But I think qEEG guided NF is the safest option to try first.

Best,
Loren E. Pedersen, PhD

Erica Kube

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Jun 21, 2022, 12:54:58 PM6/21/22
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Interesting this article was next in my inbox after this thread.

 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/psychiatry-through-the-looking-glass/202008/80-years-do-we-know-if-electroconvulsive-therapy

“New review finds no evidence ECT works, but much evidence of severe memory loss.”

 

 

Erica Kube, LIMHP, CPC, BCN

Clinical Director | Neurotherapist

er...@neurotherapynebraska.com

10909 Prairie Brook Rd | Omaha, NE 68144

Office 402.933.2916 | Fax 402.933.2919

www.facebook.com/neurotherapynebraska

neurotherapynebraska.com

 

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D Corydon Hammond

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Jun 21, 2022, 1:48:00 PM6/21/22
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I had great respect for a psychiatrist who said in his book back in the 1970’s that he likened ECT to taking a fine Swiss watch that wasn’t working and banging it on the desk, and occasionally it started working again.  A very crude way to treat the brain.

 

Cory

 

From: isnr_memb...@googlegroups.com <isnr_memb...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Dr LOREN PEDERSEN
Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2022 10:21 AM
To: isnr_memb...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Neurofeedback and ECT

 

Saul,

Siegfried Othmer

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Jun 21, 2022, 6:37:52 PM6/21/22
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Cory—

At least it was a step forward from frontal lobotomy. And now rTMS is yet another step forward from ECT. But none of these have staying power. Imagine thinking that in order to alter brain function it is necessary to utilize a magnetic field that is just short of generating action potentials! And yet this goes on for decades without someone calling attention to the fact that this just overkill…just like frontal lobotomy and ECT. 

Siegfried Othmer 
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