Hi David how's it going? My feelings on the cost of a new sail. Overpriced we're getting hosed taking advantage of ripped off.--++**==--++**==--++**==--++**==--++**==--++**==--++**==--++**==Maybe the price is so high because we have three manufacturers that have guaranteed to supply this quality product to the laser class under contract. Maybe they're manufacturing this product without using child labor and paying their employees a fair wage. Maybe they're buying their materials from companies that do the same thing and they're a little bit more expensive.Having been involved in a small sail loft in one of my other lives. We would manufacture for a number of builders. They would set the price and we would have to figure out how to work within that budget and still manufactures to spec and make a profit.I think what's happened with sails and other parts no one has kept an eye on the increasing costs. We just accept as fact that this is what it cost to deliver this product. We're in one design. Do you believe that an upper section should cost you $650 for a tube. I don't but I think that because it's approved everybody wants one and you can set the price wherever you want. Just like when all these new Builders came online the sell was the price is going to go down because there's more competition. Compare the price of an authorized Builder to a LP boat. One has a sticker one doesn't. One part is approved another isn't.I am totally a firm believer that you need to make a profit. Unfortunately we participate in a sport where things are expensive. That's the norm. What can we do about it. Maybe change the rules. renegotiate with these manufacturers. Boycott won't work because people will still buy because they need it. And when you need something you got to pay for it. Hopefully within reason which doesn't seem to be the case. Anyway just my two cents. Or maybe I should make it 8 cents because it's a sailing thing.
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Laser is still one of the least expensive thing out there. I guess a Sunfish would be cheaper but even El Toro stuff is more expensive.
And if you want, you can buy replica stuff for practice and local regattas. Or a legal used sail; the new full rig sails last reasonably well.
You can get a competitive boat for $3000; look at Toshi.
But for big events you need some kind of quality control to make sure that everything is within strict tolerances; that costs money.
Are we getting ripped off? Absolutely, Just like any other sailing product in any class.
Still, I don’t think the cost of the hardware is the problem for lack of participation.
E
Emilio Castelli
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On Oct 27, 2022, at 9:52 PM, Emilio Castelli <emi...@castellivineyards.com> wrote:
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+1 -- The ILCA dinghy is the only boat that can afford to race. I only buy authorized equipment to support the class and its supply chain. I know what I am getting when I purchase authorized parts and sails.
+1 -- The ILCA dinghy is the only boat that can afford to race. I only buy authorized equipment to support the class and its supply chain. I know what I am getting when I purchase authorized parts and sails.
From: laser-class-d24 <laser-class...@lists.stanford.edu> On Behalf Of Walt Spevak
Sent: Friday, October 28, 2022 1:51 PM
To: Tracy Usher <tracy...@gmail.com>
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Agree, radial should be heavier cloth, maybe like the full rig.
Would last longer and heavier cloth might also solve the problem of the Cunningham being too low and maybe even raise the boom a little?
For those sailing a carbon bottom, is the boom higher upwind than with the alu bottom?
E
Emilio Castelli
From: laser-class-d24 [mailto:laser-class...@lists.stanford.edu] On Behalf Of Sanjai Kohli
Sent: Friday, October 28, 2022 4:06 PM
To: Usher, Tracy L.
Cc: Laser List
Subject: Re: D24 Forum Re: My two cents on the cost of sails
Hi tracy:
thanks for the clarity
a $5M annual business is miniscule and the sailmakers/channel are entitled to their markups
However, my only ask is that a new radial sail not lose its racing life in 4 days but maybe give us 4 weeks of racing?
Al you could probably beat us with just your spars up - no sail needed :)
On Fri, Oct 28, 2022 at 1:46 PM Usher, Tracy L. <us...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
(Resending from my correct email)
The price of sails has been debated for about as long as I can remember (which is longer than I would like to remember!).
The price of class legal sails is primarily driven by the number of steps from manufacturer to consumer. The material is sourced to the sailmaker where currently there are three ILCA sailmakers - one produces in Sri Lanka, one in Cebu (Philippines) and one in China. The sailmakers sell their sails to the builders who then distribute to their dealer network. Not counting the cloth supplier, there are essentially three steps with mark up - the manufacturer, the builder and the dealer.
There are on order 8000 sails sold per year of all variants (4, 6, 7), my guess is maybe 800 sails per year in North America (I don’t think the class has information on that granular a scale). Assuming a 100% markup by the dealer and $650/sail it really isn’t that much money total per dealer, certainly it helps keep their lights on and operation running. But they are not flying on private jets.
The cost from the sailmaker is a bit higher than a replica sail - the quality specifications on the proprietary material is higher to start with, the tolerances in the sailmaking are higher (so the sailmakers say), etc. So the cost of the sail from the sailmaker is likely higher (vs a replica manufacturer) but is surprisingly not a lot more than for a replica sail (like in the 10-20% range, not factors of 2 or more).
The builders take a large mark up on the sail themselves. This helps offset the low margin they get on the price of a new boat, it helps them promote the sport and, yeah, they want to make a profit too (and I think we all would like them to stay in business so they can provide stuff for us). For them it’s a nice chunk of change but, still, they are also not flying on private jets. As they say, in the marine industry you can make a living but you are not going to get rich.
All of the sailmakers used by the class are paying real wages to their employees and are not using child labor, etc.
It is my understanding that replica sails are primarily sourced from China and are sold direct. In some cases (e.g. Rooster) they are relatively large operations, in some cases they are “garage” operations with almost zero overhead. In all cases I would assume the margin in this one step from sailmaker to dealer is of order 100% which is already less than what an ILCA builder charges their dealers. So it’s not hard to see why there is a price difference between the two but I think one has to consider the benefit to the class and sport vs just the consumer.
In spite of what people would like to think, replica sails are NOT identical replicas of ILCA sails. None of them are using the same material (as they would like to say)… and Rooster even says flat out they have changed the cut to try to avoid IP issues.
If replica sails were identical in use and performance to ILCA sails then the Olympic level sailors would be training with them. They are not. They cannot afford to train to equipment they are not going to actually use while racing.
On every one design boat I have ever sailed in my entire life people have always chased after the mythical perfect sail that would last forever. Sails are like tires on a car, they wear out. The harder you drive them the faster they wear out. Olympic level sailors use a lot more sails per year than us average folk, they use a sail a few major regattas, rotate it into training, then sell or donate them while they still have a usable life to more average sailors. That is still a pretty good life for a consumable at that level of competition, and does even make them a bit more sustainable than in some other classes where old sails simply end up in the dumpster.
Finally, it should be noted that last year’s shipping issues really impacted the production of the material used for ILCA 6 sails and there was only one option available for sourcing it with long lead times. That led to a supply shortage overall and sailmakers are just starting to get caught up with the demand.
I’ll save an equally long rant about class dues other than to say I’m continually amazed that people seem to think all the infrastructure in place that they take advantage of when they go race their boat simply materializes out of the ether. Like one day the Richmond club just appeared along with a race committee signal boat and a fleet of ribs and whalers to set marks, provide safety, etc.
As they say, “there is no free lunch”.
Tracy
Sent from my iPad
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Even just moving the cunningham up 5” would improve it.
E
Emilio Castelli
From: Usher, Tracy L. [mailto:us...@slac.stanford.edu]
Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2022 7:12 AM
To: Stephen Aguilar
On Oct 29, 2022, at 9:17 AM, Emilio Castelli <emi...@castellivineyards.com> wrote:
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On Oct 29, 2022, at 10:43 AM, Julian Soto <jujub...@gmail.com> wrote:
If you are concerned about cost. I suggest having 3 sails. One for practice (illegal/legal one), a San Francisco race sail for those expected to be windier venues and a San Diego race sail for those expect to be light venues. This will lengthen The life of your sails tremendously especially if you pick and choose your venues depending on your skills we can coordinate with the sails You use. The windier sail should be a Hyde/Pryde and the light air should be North. Also, having a sail bag and a good thick top cover will help or just bring it home. When out on the water, make sure the DH is off when not in use, the outhaul tighter when flapping the sails and boomvang on to the 1st mark/ where the boom is parallel. Last tip, train hard and the equipment will follow. Unless you have a wooden tiller and no hiking strap and stuck in the 70’s.
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