iRMX on a 386/24 ?

[scott baker]

I recently acquired myself a system 310, with a perfectly good Xenix operating system installed on the HDD. However, I'd also like to play around with iRMX.This 310 has been upgraded to a 386/24 board. 

Looking at the release notes for iRMX86 Rev 6, it lists processor support for  86/88/186/188/286 processors. Rev 6 disks are up on bitsavers. However, I have no idea if these just happen to work with the 386/24 board (i.e. if it is sufficiently backward compatible with the 286 boards).

Anyone know?

Scott

[William Beech]

Scott,

I believe it will run the 286 iRMX.  I have never used iRMX on one, however. 

Could you post the HD image for Xenix?  It might hold some Xenix software I don't have.  Particularly the OpenNet and TCP/IP networking.

Thanks!

Bill

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[Scott Baker]

Bill,

I'll send you a PM about the image.

I did try to install iRMX 286 Release 6 on the 310, disk image 147025_dmk.imd, but all I get is the following:

. b :wf0:

Loading :wf0:

... and then it sits there forever. I didn't even get so much as an error message. I suppose it could be that something about the 386 board, like the location of the UART console port, is sufficiently different that it can't even print text.

I think I may have an 86/30 around here somewhere I can try, and I do have a lead on a 286/10A though it lacks ROMs.

Scott

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/intel-devsys/d239dc75-d69b-4de1-bb56-e220ab46330e%40nj7p.org.

[William Beech]

Scott,

I believe I can supply ROM images for the 86/30.  We have the software to build all the ROMs for the 808x, 8018x, 8028x, and 8038xs.  I can definitely provide the 286/10 ROMs!

Bill

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/intel-devsys/CA%2B8qVMMeTzGGzvNp%2Bdt87xkUUCxD_d5qReJ74iY%3DkkLP-XpYjw%40mail.gmail.com.

[scott baker]

I found the 86/30 ROMs on bitsavers, at least I think so. here: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/intel/system3xx/firmware/86-330_CPU_Mon_1.0_SCT330_2.2/

The 286/10A ROMs I may still need.

I've been going through my 80/30 board reconciling the jumpers. Dealing with the jumpers is always such a chore when you encounter a random eBay multibus board.

Scott

[William Beech]

Scott,

Yes, I have good and bad experiences with the boards off ePay.  But it is almost the only way to get some of the boards.  I have about 100 multibus I boards in my stock.  Nearly every processor board Intel made.  And a bunch of spare Intel 310 and 320 boards.  I have had the 310 running with a iSBC 286/10 processor.  I want to get my 320 running, as well.

When you need them, I can read out some iSBC 286/10 ROM images and email them to you.  BIN files ok?

Bill

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/intel-devsys/30a8d4e5-c745-407d-ae25-25738acd39abn%40googlegroups.com.

[scott baker]

I'll let you know on the 286 board next week -- seller is gonna have to come down some on the price. We'll see.

I managed to make some progress on my 86/30 board. The ebay seller, when he disassembled the board to take pictures and reassembled it, he bent one of the pins on the piggback ram board. That was the devil for me to find. I can talk to the monitor on the 86/30 board. However, it fails to detect the disks:

SCT330 V2.2,
  TEST                                                        STATUS

USART/TIMER   .                                                 GO
PIC           .*.  .                                            GO
ROMCKSM       .                                                 GO
PPI           . . .                                             GO
NPX           .                                                 GO
RAM TEST                TOTAL MEMORY = 256K
  ONBOARD                                                       GO
  OFFBOARD                                                     NO-GO
  EXTENDED                                                      GO
PARITY        ?                                                NO-GO
WINCHESTER    ?                                                NO-GO
FLOPPY        ?                                                NO-GO
CONTRLR INT   ?                                                NO-GO

SCT COMPLETE...NO_GO EXIT TO MONITOR

I might need to spend some time manually diagnosing this, to make sure that the 86/30 is actually talking to other boards in the backplane.

Scott

[Scott Baker]

Bill, if you have any known-good ROMs for the 86-30 board in a system310 that would be useful. I'm still trying to get my 80/30 board to work, but I'm wondering if I have the wrong ROMs for it. The ROMs I have from Bitsavers are marked 86-330.

Scott

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/intel-devsys/ecbb3b84-42f4-45d5-93a5-055b38fe2f62n%40googlegroups.com.

[William Beech]

Scott,

The results you show below show the Monitor seeing only stuff local to the board.  What other boards are in the card cage?  Drives? I believe they also show they are correct for the iSBC 86/30 board.

Is 256K memory correct?  I don't remember what my add on board provided?

Yes, bent pins are a PITA!  Hang in there.  We will get this working!

Bill

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/intel-devsys/ecbb3b84-42f4-45d5-93a5-055b38fe2f62n%40googlegroups.com.

[William Beech]

Scott,

I believe those are the correct ROMs.

I could probably spare out a iSBC 286/10 from the ones I have.  I would need to make sure they run in the 310 as far as the monitor goes.  You have to have a 286 to run Xenix.  I don't know if iRMX 86 would run on the iSBC 86/30 board.

Bill

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/intel-devsys/CA%2B8qVMNeicYjaT8ak%2BHbM%3DjrWZv9ksut_mTAzzUGEX4x79e6ug%40mail.gmail.com.

[scott baker]

If I'm reading the documentation correctly, the 215G is has a jumper-selected port and memory address, and they are currently configured to 0x1000 (memory) and 0x100 (port). You put a wake-up block at 0x1000 in host memory and then you write 0x01 to the port, and it will grab the bus, read the stuff out of host memory, and go on it's merry way conducting disk operations. What makes me curious about the ROMs are that after it fails the disk test and goes to the monitor, the only thing at 0x1000 is the leftover bit pattern from the memory test. I expected to see the remnants of a wake-up block.

Which means I'm either misunderstanding the configuration of the 215G and looking at the wrong memory address, or the ROMs are configured for a different address.

215G is much more complicated than the floppy controllers I've used before. It needs in memory:

* Wake-up block

* Channel control block

* Controller invocation block

* IO Parameter Block

I might try to put all of this in memory and see if I can manually make it do something.

Scott

[Herbert Johnson]

http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/intel/system3xx/173202-001_310sysIntr_Oct83.pdf

gives examples where iRMX runs on the 86/30 and the 286/10, Zenix-86 on
the 86/30 and Zenix-286 on the 286/10. - Herb

On 5/18/2025 6:27 PM, William Beech wrote:
> Scott,
>

> I believe those are the correct ROMs.
>
> I could probably spare out a iSBC 286/10 from the ones I have.  I would
> need to make sure they run in the 310 as far as the monitor goes.  You
> have to have a 286 to run Xenix.  I don't know if iRMX 86 would run on
> the iSBC 86/30 board.
>
> Bill

--
Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey USA
https://www.retrotechnology.com OR .net
preserve, recover, restore 1970's computing
email: hjohnson AT retrotechnology DOT com
or try later herbjohnson AT comcast DOT net

--
Herb Johnson, New Jersey USA
http://www.retrotechnology.com or .net
preserve and restore 1970's personal computing
email: hjohnson @ retrotechnology dot com
or try later at herbjohnson @ comcast dot net

[scott baker]

New theory, the problem is here:

RAM TEST                TOTAL MEMORY = 256K
  ONBOARD                                                       GO
  OFFBOARD                                                     NO-GO

If the OFFBOARD memory test fails, then it skips the HDD and FDD tests. This would be consistent with me finding no HDD data structures anywhere in memory.

My 86/30 board has 256K total -- 128K on the base board and another 128K on the 304 piggyback board. I think the ROM is assuming I have 128K onboard plus 256K off-board for a total of 384K. This would be consistent with the configuration for an 86-300 system, which includes an 056 memory board. My gut feeling is still this is the wrong ROM for an 86/30 based 310. There are several 310 configurations that do not include a RAM board and therefore only have 128K, and as far as I can tell, they cannot work with this particular ROM because it will fail if there is less than 384K, or if it thinks there is no parity checking at 0x40000.

I have a RAM board around here somewhere. Maybe an 012? Adding that ought to satisfy the ROM's tests.

Scott

[Jon Hales]

Scott

Thank you for the dumps of your hard drive. From a brief viewing, it appears your 310 was prepared with Xenix 3-5 but with no applications or data. I have seen another system where the programmer seems to have disappeared during the time the 310 was being ordered.

Manual 173206-001 "System Memory Configuration Guide: 86-Based Systems" covers the 012B, 056A and 304. The manual has separate chapters of jumper settings for each RAM board.

Setup of the 304 is also covered in 144044-002 which is the Hardware Reference Manual for the 86/14 and 86/30. There may also be relevant information in 173205-001, which is about configuration with the 86/30.

Given that Intel shipped the boards with EPROMs separate from the PCB, the manuals don't document the interactions between the ROM code and the rest of the system. I'm not aware of any manual providing an explanation of the startup routine. However, I haven't read every page of every manual.

There would be benefits for owners of 310s (and related systems) if we had a repository of EPROM revisions with details of the configuration of the systems in which each version was installed - including documentation of the jumpers on each board. Perhaps that's why a repository of that sort would be hard to build. A collection of photos of our systems and boards might be less of a challenge. I would advocate a brief description of the application(s) to which these systems had been put - and the installed OS revision.

Jon

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[scott baker]

Thanks for having a look, Jon.

Bill, it looks like the eBay seller did accept my offer on the 286/10A and I have a board (less ROMs) on order. Ought to be here in a week, I would think.

Next time I have some free time I'll throw a memory board in the 310 and see if I can get the 86/30 to recognize the disk. I also disassembled enough of the bitsavers ROMs that I think I can probably hack the offboard memory and parity tests out of the SCT and maybe get it to boot as-is.

Scott

[William Beech]

Scott,

Good plan. Try the iSBC 012 RAM card.  My 310's all had iSBC 010CX or 020CX RAM cards.  We used 4 MB for Xenix. 

I will hunt for my iSBC 86/30 ROM images and put them where you can get them on my web site.

Bill.

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[William Beech]

Scott/Jon/Mark/Anyone with Intel Processor ROMs,

You are correct we need to archive the ROM images in a better way.  Let me see if I can figure out a way to better document what we have.  If you hold any ROM images, please put them on the Google share under a directory of ROMs.  I would appreciate it.  And include Intel part numbers if known.

Thanks in advance to everyone!

Bill

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/intel-devsys/CANPXPJmMSPxYonr6_to9AfO4VX0zwx-NvDNKgVAHM4D4-tgN%2Bw%40mail.gmail.com.

[William Beech]

Scott,

Do I have a copy of your disk image?  I collect Intel Xenix in the hunt for some more system networking software.

Good.  I will concentrate on the iSBC 286/10 ROMs, first.

We have FULL source for almost all the basic monitor ROMs for all the Intel processor boards.  I include 2 7Z files for the 286-10 V 1.0 and 1.1.  Did they make it.  Changed extent to xxx from 7z.

Bill

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/intel-devsys/1c2106f2-ade3-4a27-8c3b-a5df43f4e39cn%40googlegroups.com.

[William Beech]

Scott,

Here is the Datasheet on the ISDM Monitors.

Bill

On 5/19/2025 7:22 AM, scott baker wrote:

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/intel-devsys/1c2106f2-ade3-4a27-8c3b-a5df43f4e39cn%40googlegroups.com.

[William Beech]

Scott,

Here are ROM images I have for the iSBC 86/30.  XXX is a 7Z file.

Bill

On 5/18/2025 11:49 PM, scott baker wrote:

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[Scott Baker]

Thanks, I saw that. There's also another manual out there that has a little bit more.

I had a heck of a time finding the syntax to do a memory dump on the 86/30, which uses an exclamation point: "D <start>!<end>".

Scott

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/intel-devsys/9f5d743c-e677-4dab-80d9-952bc845e345%40nj7p.org.

[William Beech]

Scott,

Yes, the full manual is available.  It was handy.  Intel did have some strange syntax, but it worked.

Did the 286/10 ROMs make it?

Bill

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/intel-devsys/CA%2B8qVMMXA%2B%2BfEdbvUZdEx7LyuYs%2BGiL2h8_y%2B9ZRpfGqTky1sw%40mail.gmail.com.

[scott baker]

Yes, I got the 286/10 ROMs. The 286/10 ought to be here in about a week.

I tried the bitsavers SCT330 ROMS (145030-145033) a bit more. First I tried to NOP out the instructions that cause it to abort on an OFFBOARD memory error. This got me to the HDD test, but was doomed to fail because the ROM puts the IOPB and other structs at 0x40000 which didn't exist. So then I did the sensible thing and installed my memory board (which turned out to be an 028 not an 012). This fixed all the memory errors, parity arrors and other complaints from the ROM. However, it still declared the HDD and FDD as NO-GO. Looking at the memory structures it left behind, it's clear that it's trying to access the floppy as an 8", not a 5.25". This ROM was for the 86/300, which comes with an 8" disk, so no surprise there. I'm giving up on that ROM as it doesn't go with the rest of the computer.

Next I tried the 86/30 ROMs that you uploaded. No trouble accessing these ones, but they are the SDM only not not the boot loader or SCT as far as I can tell. No "B" command.

Anyhow, I'll come back and try again in a week or so when the 286 board shows up.

Scott

[scott baker]

Also Bill if you have a manual for the iSDM monitor, that would be useful. I'm lost as to the syntax of the "B" command for booting. For the 386 monitor it's clear enough that it takes a parameter like :wf0: or :w0:, but for the 8086 monitor it seems to accept any random junk (and then it promptly hangs).

Scott

[Mark Fisher]

Hi Scott & Everyone,

I have been working with iSDM as well and found a few other commands that may be helpful.

<len> D <addr>,  Display and edit values.

<len> DX <addr>   Disassemble from address.  Registers work too.  CS:IP

<len> DW <addr>  Display words

G <addr>, Breakpoint   Set breakpoint and go

L :F6:test.86    Loads file from MDS to target

<len>N <addr> Step len times starting at addr.

K :F6:filename  Records a macro.

I hope these are helpful.  Thanks for the finding of the start!end.  Good find.

I am looking for more documentation on iSDM.  It appears one can write a program on a target system where iSDM is resident.  One can call some functions.  The first one I am interested in is to output text on my MDS from the target (CEI).  I just do not have any documents on iSDM other than the catalog info.

My setup is a series-III with the IPC.  It's serial port (IPC), is connected to an 88/25 and cardcage.  My plan is to write programs that run on the target to exercise an ethernet board set.  With messages showing up on the MDS.  On the MDS I am running the SDMLDR.86 program and can load programs into the target.

I would love to get more information on iSDM.  There appears to be two manuals for it.

Regards, Mark  

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/intel-devsys/CA%2B8qVMMXA%2B%2BfEdbvUZdEx7LyuYs%2BGiL2h8_y%2B9ZRpfGqTky1sw%40mail.gmail.com.

[scott baker]

I've had some small measure of success playing with the 86/30 board. I switched to a ROM called 173817 from bitsavers. This one prints "SCT 86/300W" whereas the original one I tried was an "SCT-330". 

With this ROM, I've figured out how to get the Winchester into "GO" status. The trick here is to ensure that offset 0x1B0 in the disk image either has 0000, or has a valid SBC-215 disk descrtiption (in my case, 03 EE 00 08 00 09 FF 04). I'm assuming this translates to either an unformatted disk (0000) or a formatted disk. If there is something else there, such as some random chunk of a Xenix image, the ROM will interpret it as a disk description, which will likely fail when the SBX-215 executes the diagnostic function. So I hav eeverything in "GO" state now. However, I'm at a loss what to do with it at this point. It will attempt to boot. I'm not sure whether that's from the HDD or the FDD. Whatever it is, the system just hangs at this point.

Part of me is wondering if I simply don't know what I'm doing with these iRMX disk images. I'm using "147023-001 iRMX 86 INSTALLATION DISKETTE" which seems like a plausible floppy image that ought to boot in an 86/30. But maybe it isn't? Some of the older docs I found talk about bootstrapping the computer from an iPDS.

Scott

[Scott Baker]

Just when I had almost given up hope!

*BREAK* at F800:42C8

.b :wf0:

iRMX 86 HI CLI, V3.0: USER = 65535

Copyright 1981, 1982, 1984 Intel Corporation

This is with the 173817 ROM and the 147023-001 disk. I hit "U" and then CTRL-C, and then "b :wf0:". This seems to work with or without the HDD working (I hit CTRL-C with the mfm-emulator not initialized, and before the winchester test had run).

Scott

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/intel-devsys/0b1faf22-fe2b-4a3d-99eb-bc1518685fcfn%40googlegroups.com.

[William Beech]

Scott,

Sounds like progress.  That looks right!

I need to either get FTP working on my web site or better yet create you a login on my google share for the Intel stuff.  Do you have a gmail account?  If so, send me a test email to nj7...@gmail.com and I can create a login.

Thanks for the good work!

Bill

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/intel-devsys/CA%2B8qVMP-yNYbfBbzPmw00_8a4%3DDtCbyWVfOWxQDTRgz8Uo6ZDA%40mail.gmail.com.

[scott baker]

I actually managed to get it 100% working last night, even installed the OS to the hardrive from the installation floppy.

I'll write up an update this weekend.

Sent you that test email.

Scott

[Jon Hales]

Scott

Great news. Congratulations.

Jon

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/intel-devsys/268d7656-068f-48c3-bdc7-fbb39d97130bn%40googlegroups.com.

[scott baker]

Well now I'm going to have to figure out what to do with it. I see ASM86 and PLM86 are available.

Literature makes mention of Pascal, a couple of C compilers, and even a BASIC interpreter for iRMX86. I assume those have all been lost to time?

I'm tempted to see if Mark's c-ports can cross-compile something that will run on the 310. I could build myself a nice Forth to play with.

Scott

[Herbert Johnson]

Further rooting around on the Web may find more Intel programming tools.
I think you might look for some Intel Pascal's and see if they happen to
be iRMX-86 compatible. Other Intel codes recovered, may not have been
identified specifically for iRMX-86.

Here's a trail you might follow, you probably found part of it. Please
leave a trail accordingly.

https://www.retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/isis_coll.html
https://bitsavers.org/bits/Intel/
https://mark-ogden.uk/files/intel/

... and Mark has other work in other places, he can speak to that. And
other people may have some archives, now that they can be told/asked by
someone with an iRMX-86 in operation.

Regards Herb

On 5/23/2025 7:43 PM, scott baker wrote:
> Well now I'm going to have to figure out what to do with it. I see ASM86
> and PLM86 are available.
>
> Literature makes mention of Pascal, a couple of C compilers, and even a
> BASIC interpreter for iRMX86. I assume those have all been lost to time?
>
> I'm tempted to see if Mark's c-ports can cross-compile something that
> will run on the 310. I could build myself a nice Forth to play with.
>
> Scott
>
> On Friday, 23 May 2025 at 14:48:31 UTC-7 Jon Hales wrote:
>
> Scott
>
> Great news. Congratulations.
>
> Jon

[scott baker]

Thanks Herb, I'll look around.

For those interested, my write-up of installing iRMX-86 is here: https://www.smbaker.com/setting-up-an-irmx86-operating-system-on-a-multibus-86-30-vintage-computer

Scott

[mark.p...@btinternet.com]

<268d7656-068f
-48c3-bdc7-f...@googlegroups.com> <CANPXPJmknswPB=ceENsKyZAJGwMPm4N3...@mail.gmail.com> <a69d247b-9222-4ab2...@googlegroups.com>
In-Reply-To: <a69d247b-9222-4ab2...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: RE: intel-devsys iRMX on a 386/24 ?
Date: Sat, 24 May 2025 20:35:28 +0100
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Scott

My c-ports are for the 8080 software only.

In my repository, the iRMX directory contains the content from several =
iRMX directories, however I would expect most of the *.86 files in the =
Intel IV and Intel86 directories are likely to be iRMX applications.

So ASM86, ASM286, ASM51, PLM86, PAS86, PAS286, CC86 and several tools =
e.g. LIB, LINK, MAKE, SVC, PSCOPE=E2=80=A6

=20

In addition most of the MSDOS files are iRMX files with a UDI2DOS =
wrapper

=20

Mark

From: intel-...@googlegroups.com <intel-...@googlegroups.com> On =
Behalf Of scott baker
Sent: 24 May 2025 00:44
To: intel-devsys <intel-...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: intel-devsys iRMX on a 386/24 ?

=20

Well now I'm going to have to figure out what to do with it. I see ASM86 =
and PLM86 are available.

=20

Literature makes mention of Pascal, a couple of C compilers, and even a =

BASIC interpreter for iRMX86. I assume those have all been lost to time?

=20

I'm tempted to see if Mark's c-ports can cross-compile something that =

will run on the 310. I could build myself a nice Forth to play with.

=20

Scott

On Friday, 23 May 2025 at 14:48:31 UTC-7 Jon Hales wrote:

Scott

=20

Great news. Congratulations.

=20

Jon

=20

On Fri, 23 May 2025, 22:35 scott baker, <smb...@gmail.com =
<mailto:smb...@gmail.com> > wrote:

I actually managed to get it 100% working last night, even installed the =

OS to the hardrive from the installation floppy.

=20

I'll write up an update this weekend.

=20

Sent you that test email.

=20

Scott

On Friday, 23 May 2025 at 13:08:03 UTC-7 William Beech wrote:

Scott,

Sounds like progress. That looks right!

I need to either get FTP working on my web site or better yet create you =
a login on my google share for the Intel stuff. Do you have a gmail =
account? If so, send me a test email to nj7...@gmail.com =
<mailto:nj7...@gmail.com> and I can create a login.

Thanks for the good work!

Bill

=20

On 5/21/2025 10:33 PM, Scott Baker wrote:

Just when I had almost given up hope!=20

=20

*BREAK* at F800:42C8=20

.b :wf0:

=20

iRMX 86 HI CLI, V3.0: USER =3D 65535

Copyright 1981, 1982, 1984 Intel Corporation

=20

This is with the 173817 ROM and the 147023-001 disk. I hit "U" and then =
CTRL-C, and then "b :wf0:". This seems to work with or without the HDD =
working (I hit CTRL-C with the mfm-emulator not initialized, and before =

the winchester test had run).

=20

Scott

=20

On Wed, May 21, 2025 at 7:47=E2=80=AFPM scott baker <smb...@gmail.com =
<mailto:smb...@gmail.com> > wrote:

I've had some small measure of success playing with the 86/30 board. I =
switched to a ROM called 173817 from bitsavers. This one prints "SCT =
86/300W" whereas the original one I tried was an "SCT-330". =20

=20

With this ROM, I've figured out how to get the Winchester into "GO" =
status. The trick here is to ensure that offset 0x1B0 in the disk image =
either has 0000, or has a valid SBC-215 disk descrtiption (in my case, =
03 EE 00 08 00 09 FF 04). I'm assuming this translates to either an =
unformatted disk (0000) or a formatted disk. If there is something else =
there, such as some random chunk of a Xenix image, the ROM will =
interpret it as a disk description, which will likely fail when the =
SBX-215 executes the diagnostic function. So I hav eeverything in "GO" =
state now. However, I'm at a loss what to do with it at this point. It =
will attempt to boot. I'm not sure whether that's from the HDD or the =

FDD. Whatever it is, the system just hangs at this point.

=20

Part of me is wondering if I simply don't know what I'm doing with these =
iRMX disk images. I'm using "147023-001 iRMX 86 INSTALLATION DISKETTE" =
which seems like a plausible floppy image that ought to boot in an =
86/30. But maybe it isn't? Some of the older docs I found talk about =

bootstrapping the computer from an iPDS.

=20

Scott

=20

On Monday, 19 May 2025 at 20:11:50 UTC-7 Mark Fisher wrote:

Hi Scott & Everyone,=20

=20

I have been working with iSDM as well and found a few other commands =

that may be helpful.

<len> D <addr>, Display and edit values.

<len> DX <addr> Disassemble from address. Registers work too. CS:IP

<len> DW <addr> Display words

G <addr>, Breakpoint Set breakpoint and go

L :F6:test.86 Loads file from MDS to target

<len>N <addr> Step len times starting at addr.

K :F6:filename Records a macro.

=20

I hope these are helpful. Thanks for the finding of the start!end. =
Good find.

=20

I am looking for more documentation on iSDM. It appears one can write a =
program on a target system where iSDM is resident. One can call some =
functions. The first one I am interested in is to output text on my MDS =
from the target (CEI). I just do not have any documents on iSDM other =
than the catalog info.

=20

My setup is a series-III with the IPC. It's serial port (IPC), is =
connected to an 88/25 and cardcage. My plan is to write programs that =
run on the target to exercise an ethernet board set. With messages =
showing up on the MDS. On the MDS I am running the SDMLDR.86 program =

and can load programs into the target.

=20

I would love to get more information on iSDM. There appears to be two =
manuals for it.

=20

Regards, Mark =20

=20

On Mon, May 19, 2025 at 3:17=E2=80=AFPM Scott Baker <smb...@gmail.com =
<mailto:smb...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Thanks, I saw that. There's also another manual out there that has a =
little bit more.=20

=20

I had a heck of a time finding the syntax to do a memory dump on the =

86/30, which uses an exclamation point: "D <start>!<end>".

=20

Scott

=20

On Mon, May 19, 2025 at 12:43=E2=80=AFPM William Beech <nj...@nj7p.org =
<mailto:nj...@nj7p.org> > wrote:

Scott,

Here is the Datasheet on the ISDM Monitors.

Bill

On 5/19/2025 7:22 AM, scott baker wrote:

Thanks for having a look, Jon.=20

=20

Bill, it looks like the eBay seller did accept my offer on the 286/10A =
and I have a board (less ROMs) on order. Ought to be here in a week, I =
would think.

=20

Next time I have some free time I'll throw a memory board in the 310 and =
see if I can get the 86/30 to recognize the disk. I also disassembled =
enough of the bitsavers ROMs that I think I can probably hack the =
offboard memory and parity tests out of the SCT and maybe get it to boot =
as-is.

=20

Scott

On Monday, 19 May 2025 at 01:52:48 UTC-7 Jon Hales wrote:

Scott=20

=20

Thank you for the dumps of your hard drive. From a brief viewing, it =
appears your 310 was prepared with Xenix 3-5 but with no applications or =
data. I have seen another system where the programmer seems to have =

disappeared during the time the 310 was being ordered.

=20

Manual 173206-001 "System Memory Configuration Guide: 86-Based Systems" =
covers the 012B, 056A and 304. The manual has separate chapters of =

jumper settings for each RAM board.

=20

Setup of the 304 is also covered in 144044-002 which is the Hardware =
Reference Manual for the 86/14 and 86/30. There may also be relevant =

information in 173205-001, which is about configuration with the 86/30.

=20

Given that Intel shipped the boards with EPROMs separate from the PCB, =
the manuals don't document the interactions between the ROM code and the =
rest of the system. I'm not aware of any manual providing an explanation =
of the startup routine. However, I haven't read every page of every =
manual.

=20

There would be benefits for owners of 310s (and related systems) if we =
had a repository of EPROM revisions with details of the configuration of =
the systems in which each version was installed - including =
documentation of the jumpers on each board. Perhaps that's why a =
repository of that sort would be hard to build. A collection of photos =
of our systems and boards might be less of a challenge. I would advocate =
a brief description of the application(s) to which these systems had =

been put - and the installed OS revision.

=20

Jon

=20

=20

=20

On Mon, 19 May 2025 at 07:49, scott baker <smb...@gmail.com =
<mailto:smb...@gmail.com> > wrote:

New theory, the problem is here:=20

=20

RAM TEST TOTAL MEMORY =3D 256K
ONBOARD GO
OFFBOARD NO-GO

=20

If the OFFBOARD memory test fails, then it skips the HDD and FDD tests. =
This would be consistent with me finding no HDD data structures anywhere =
in memory.

=20

My 86/30 board has 256K total -- 128K on the base board and another 128K =
on the 304 piggyback board. I think the ROM is assuming I have 128K =
onboard plus 256K off-board for a total of 384K. This would be =
consistent with the configuration for an 86-300 system, which includes =
an 056 memory board. My gut feeling is still this is the wrong ROM for =
an 86/30 based 310. There are several 310 configurations that do not =
include a RAM board and therefore only have 128K, and as far as I can =
tell, they cannot work with this particular ROM because it will fail if =
there is less than 384K, or if it thinks there is no parity checking at =
0x40000.

=20

I have a RAM board around here somewhere. Maybe an 012? Adding that =

ought to satisfy the ROM's tests.

=20

Scott

On Sunday, 18 May 2025 at 18:14:52 UTC-7 Herbert Johnson wrote:

http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/intel/system3xx/173202-001_310sysIntr_Oct83.=
pdf=20

gives examples where iRMX runs on the 86/30 and the 286/10, Zenix-86 on=20
the 86/30 and Zenix-286 on the 286/10. - Herb=20

On 5/18/2025 6:27 PM, William Beech wrote:=20
> Scott,=20
>=20
> I believe those are the correct ROMs.=20
>=20
> I could probably spare out a iSBC 286/10 from the ones I have. I =
would=20
> need to make sure they run in the 310 as far as the monitor goes. You =

> have to have a 286 to run Xenix. I don't know if iRMX 86 would run on =

> the iSBC 86/30 board.=20
>=20
> Bill=20

--=20
Herbert R. Johnson, New Jersey USA=20
https://www.retrotechnology.com OR .net=20
preserve, recover, restore 1970's computing=20
email: hjohnson AT retrotechnology DOT com=20
or try later herbjohnson AT comcast DOT net=20

--=20
Herb Johnson, New Jersey USA=20
http://www.retrotechnology.com or .net=20
preserve and restore 1970's personal computing=20
email: hjohnson @ retrotechnology dot com=20
or try later at herbjohnson @ comcast dot net=20

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xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" =
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-GB link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple style=3D'word-wrap:break-word'><div =
class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Scott<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>My c-ports are for =
the 8080 software only.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>In my repository, =
the iRMX directory contains the content from several iRMX directories, =
however I would expect most of the *.86 files in the Intel IV and =
Intel86 directories are likely to be iRMX =
applications.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>So ASM86, ASM286, =
ASM51, PLM86, PAS86, PAS286, CC86 and several tools e.g. LIB, LINK, =
MAKE, SVC, PSCOPE=E2=80=A6<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>In addition most =
of the MSDOS files are iRMX files with a=C2=A0 UDI2DOS =
wrapper<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Mark<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span><=
/b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> =
intel-...@googlegroups.com &lt;intel-...@googlegroups.com&gt; =
<b>On Behalf Of </b>scott baker<br><b>Sent:</b> 24 May 2025 =
00:44<br><b>To:</b> intel-devsys =
&lt;intel-...@googlegroups.com&gt;<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: =
intel-devsys iRMX on a 386/24 ?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Well now I'm =
going to have to figure out what to do with it. I see ASM86 and PLM86 =
are available.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Literature makes mention of Pascal, a couple of C =
compilers, and even a BASIC interpreter for iRMX86. I assume those have =
all been lost to time?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>I'm tempted to see if Mark's c-ports can cross-compile =
something that will run on the 310. I could build myself a nice Forth to =
play with.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Scott<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>On Friday, 23 May 2025 at 14:48:31 UTC-7 Jon Hales =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5=
.0pt'><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Scott<o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Great news. =
Congratulations.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Jon<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>On =
Fri, 23 May 2025, 22:35 scott baker, &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:smb...@gmail.com">smb...@gmail.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5=
.0pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal>I actually managed to get it 100% working =
last night, even installed the OS to the hardrive from the installation =
floppy.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>I'll write up an update this =
weekend.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Sent you that test email.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Scott<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>On Friday, 23 May 2025 at 13:08:03 UTC-7 William Beech =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5=
.0pt'><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Scott,<br><br>Sounds like =
progress.&nbsp; That looks right!<br><br>I need to either get FTP =
working on my web site or better yet create you a login on my google =
share for the Intel stuff.&nbsp; Do you have a gmail account?&nbsp; If =
so, send me a test email to <a =
href=3D"mailto:nj7...@gmail.com">nj7...@gmail.com</a> and I can create a =
login.<br><br>Thanks for the good =
work!<br><br>Bill<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>On 5/21/2025 10:33 PM, Scott Baker =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Just when I had almost given up hope! =
<o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-left:30.0pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bott=
om:5.0pt'><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>*BREAK* at F800:42C8 =
<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>.b =
:wf0:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></blockquote><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-left:30.0pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bott=
om:5.0pt'><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>iRMX 86 HI CLI, V3.0: USER =3D =
65535<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Copyright 1981, =
1982, 1984 Intel Corporation<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>This is with the 173817 ROM and the&nbsp;<span =
style=3D'color:black'>147023-001 disk. I hit &quot;U&quot; and then =
CTRL-C, and then &quot;b :wf0:&quot;. This seems to work with or without =
the HDD working (I hit CTRL-C with the mfm-emulator not initialized, and =
before the winchester test had run).</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:black'>Scott</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>On =
Wed, May 21, 2025 at 7:47<span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>=E2=80=AF</span>PM scott baker =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:smb...@gmail.com">smb...@gmail.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5=
.0pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal>I've had some small measure of success =
playing with the 86/30 board. I switched to a ROM called 173817 from =
bitsavers. This one prints &quot;SCT 86/300W&quot; whereas the original =
one I tried was an &quot;SCT-330&quot;.&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>With this ROM, I've figured out how to get the =
Winchester into &quot;GO&quot; status. The trick here is to ensure that =
offset 0x1B0 in the disk image either has 0000, or has a valid SBC-215 =
disk descrtiption (in my case, 03 EE 00 08 00 09 FF 04). I'm assuming =
this translates to either an unformatted disk (0000) or a formatted =
disk. If there is something else there, such as some random chunk of a =
Xenix image, the ROM will interpret it as a disk description, which will =
likely fail when the SBX-215 executes the diagnostic function. So I hav =
eeverything in &quot;GO&quot; state now. However, I'm at a loss what to =
do with it at this point. It will attempt to boot. I'm not sure whether =
that's from the HDD or the FDD. Whatever it is, the system just hangs at =
this point.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Part of me is wondering if I simply don't know what =
I'm doing with these iRMX disk images. I'm using &quot;<span =
style=3D'color:black'>147023-001 iRMX 86 INSTALLATION DISKETTE&quot; =
which seems like a plausible floppy image that ought to boot in an =
86/30. But maybe it isn't? Some of the older docs I found talk about =
bootstrapping the computer from an =
iPDS.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:black'>Scott</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>On Monday, 19 May 2025 at 20:11:50 UTC-7 Mark Fisher =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5=
.0pt'><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Hi Scott &amp; Everyone, =
<o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
have been working with iSDM as well and found a few other commands that =
may be helpful.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&lt;len&gt; D &lt;addr&gt;,&nbsp; Display and edit =
values.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&lt;len&gt; DX =
&lt;addr&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp;Disassemble&nbsp;from address.&nbsp; Registers =
work too.&nbsp; CS:IP<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&lt;len&gt; DW &lt;addr&gt;&nbsp; Display =
words<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>G &lt;addr&gt;, =
Breakpoint&nbsp; &nbsp;Set breakpoint and go<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>L :F6:test.86&nbsp; &nbsp; Loads file from MDS to =
target<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&lt;len&gt;N =
&lt;addr&gt; Step len times starting at =
addr.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>K :F6:filename&nbsp; =
Records a macro.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
hope these are helpful.&nbsp; Thanks for the finding of the =
start!end.&nbsp; Good find.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
am looking for more documentation on iSDM.&nbsp; It appears one can =
write a program on a target system where iSDM is resident.&nbsp; One can =
call some functions.&nbsp; The first one I am interested in is to output =
text on my MDS from the target (CEI).&nbsp; I just do not have any =
documents on iSDM other than the catalog =
info.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>My setup is a series-III with the IPC.&nbsp; It's =
serial port (IPC), is connected to an 88/25 and cardcage.&nbsp; My plan =
is to write programs that run on the target to exercise an ethernet =
board set.&nbsp; With messages showing up on the MDS.&nbsp; On the MDS I =
am running the SDMLDR.86&nbsp;program and can load programs into the =
target.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
would love to get more information on iSDM.&nbsp; There appears to be =
two manuals for it.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Regards, Mark&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>On =
Mon, May 19, 2025 at 3:17<span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>=E2=80=AF</span>PM Scott Baker =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:smb...@gmail.com">smb...@gmail.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5=
.0pt'><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks, I saw that. There's also another =
manual out there that has a little bit more. <o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
had a heck of a time finding the syntax to do a memory dump on the =
86/30, which uses an exclamation point: &quot;D =
&lt;start&gt;!&lt;end&gt;&quot;.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Scott<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>On =
Mon, May 19, 2025 at 12:43<span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial",sans-serif'>=E2=80=AF</span>PM William =
Beech &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nj...@nj7p.org">nj...@nj7p.org</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5=
.0pt'><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Scott,<br><br>Here is the Datasheet on =
the ISDM Monitors.<br><br>Bill<o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>On 5/19/2025 7:22 AM, scott baker =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks for having a look, Jon. <o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Bill, it looks like the eBay seller did accept my =
offer on the 286/10A and I have a board (less ROMs) on order. Ought to =
be here in a week, I would think.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Next time I have some free time I'll throw a memory =
board in the 310 and see if I can get the 86/30 to recognize the disk. I =
also disassembled enough of the bitsavers ROMs that I think I can =
probably hack the offboard memory and parity tests out of the SCT and =
maybe get it to boot as-is.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Scott<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>On Monday, 19 May 2025 at 01:52:48 UTC-7 Jon Hales =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5=
.0pt'><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Scott <o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Thank you for the dumps of your hard drive. From a =
brief viewing, it appears your 310 was prepared with Xenix 3-5 but with =
no applications or data. I have seen another system where the programmer =
seems to have disappeared during the time the 310 was being =
ordered.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Manual 173206-001 &quot;System Memory Configuration =
Guide: 86-Based Systems&quot; covers the 012B, 056A and 304. The manual =
has separate chapters of jumper settings for each RAM =
board.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Setup of the 304 is also covered in 144044-002 which =
is the Hardware Reference Manual for the 86/14 and 86/30. There may also =
be relevant information in 173205-001, which is about configuration with =
the 86/30.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Given that Intel shipped the boards with EPROMs =
separate from the PCB, the manuals don't document the interactions =
between the ROM code and the rest of the system. I'm not aware of any =
manual providing an explanation of the startup routine. However, I =
haven't read every page of every manual.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>There would be benefits for owners of 310s (and =
related systems) if we had a repository of EPROM revisions with details =
of the configuration of the systems in which each version was installed =
- including documentation of the jumpers on each board. Perhaps that's =
why a repository of that sort would be hard to build. A collection of =
photos of our systems and boards might be less of a challenge. I would =
advocate a brief description of the application(s) to which these =
systems had been put - and the installed OS =
revision.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Jon<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>On =
Mon, 19 May 2025 at 07:49, scott baker &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:smb...@gmail.com">smb...@gmail.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5=
.0pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal>New theory, the problem is here: =
<o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>RAM TEST &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;TOTAL MEMORY =3D 256K<br>&nbsp; ONBOARD &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; GO<br>&nbsp; OFFBOARD &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; NO-GO<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>If the OFFBOARD memory test fails, then it skips the =
HDD and FDD tests. This would be consistent with me finding no HDD data =
structures anywhere in memory.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>My 86/30 board has 256K total -- 128K on the base =
board and another 128K on the 304 piggyback board. I think the ROM is =
assuming I have 128K onboard plus 256K off-board for a total of 384K. =
This would be consistent with the configuration for an 86-300 system, =
which includes an 056 memory board. My gut feeling is still this is the =
wrong ROM for an 86/30 based 310. There are several 310 configurations =
that do not include a RAM board and therefore only have 128K, and as far =
as I can tell, they cannot work with this particular ROM because it will =
fail if there is less than 384K, or if it thinks there is no parity =
checking at 0x40000.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
have a RAM board around here somewhere. Maybe an 012? Adding that ought =
to satisfy the ROM's tests.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Scott<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>On Sunday, 18 May 2025 at 18:14:52 UTC-7 Herbert =
Johnson wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5=
.0pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><a =
href=3D"http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/intel/system3xx/173202-001_310sysInt=
r_Oct83.pdf" =
target=3D"_blank">http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/intel/system3xx/173202-001=
_310sysIntr_Oct83.pdf</a> <br><br>gives examples where iRMX runs on the =
86/30 and the 286/10, Zenix-86 on <br>the 86/30 and Zenix-286 on the =
286/10. - Herb <br><br>On 5/18/2025 6:27 PM, William Beech wrote: =
<br>&gt; Scott, <br>&gt; <br>&gt; I believe those are the correct ROMs. =
<br>&gt; <br>&gt; I could probably spare out a iSBC 286/10 from the ones =
I have.&nbsp; I would <br>&gt; need to make sure they run in the 310 as =
far as the monitor goes.&nbsp; You <br>&gt; have to have a 286 to run =
Xenix.&nbsp; I don't know if iRMX 86 would run on <br>&gt; the iSBC =
86/30 board. <br>&gt; <br>&gt; Bill <br><br>-- <br>Herbert R. Johnson, =
New Jersey USA <br><a href=3D"https://www.retrotechnology.com" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.retrotechnology.com</a> OR .net =
<br>preserve, recover, restore 1970's computing <br>email: hjohnson AT =
retrotechnology DOT com <br>or try later herbjohnson AT comcast DOT net =
<br><br>-- <br>Herb Johnson, New Jersey USA <br><a =
href=3D"http://www.retrotechnology.com" =
target=3D"_blank">http://www.retrotechnology.com</a> or .net =
<br>preserve and restore 1970's personal computing <br>email: hjohnson @ =
retrotechnology dot com <br>or try later at herbjohnson @ comcast dot =
net =
<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div></blockquote></div><div><blockquote =
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[scott baker]

Can anyone tell me what these are? It's hard to see in the picture, but there are extremely short pcboards plugged into the two multibus slots that are marked. They stick out maybe a few millimeters, run the whole length of the slot, and prevent you from plugging anything into it. It's only the two slots marked. The other vacant slot is empty. My guess is some kind of terminator of bypass (perhaps something to do with exempting these two slots from bus priority.

Scott

[scott baker]

I pulled the mystery board, and the mystery is solved!

From my quick glance at the spec, it looks like this affects the P2 connector. In my picture of the backplane, you can actually see the increased density of traces between the bottom-most CPU board and the two boards that have the iLBX blockout installed in them. Perhaps the blockout is there to prevent you from inadvertently plugging something in that used P2 for other purposes (like the SBC-201/202 floppy controller) and then either damaged itself or the CPU board.

Scott

[Herbert Johnson]

> controller) and then either damage itself or the CPU board.
>
> Scott

https://bitsavers.org/pdf/intel/_busSpec/145695revA_iLBXspec_Jan83.pdf

The spec.

> This 310 has been upgraded to a 386/24 board.

https://bitsavers.org/pdf/intel/system3xx/173202-001_310sysIntr_Oct83.pdf

"Hardware overview" mentions the "iLBX Local Bus Extension". Diagram
shows the processor board bussed only to a memory board. The manual
noted says this is a feature of the 286/10 to iSBC012CX and iSBC056CX
memory boards as of the Oct 1983 issue of this manual.

https://bitsavers.org/pdf/intel/iSBC/145158-001_iSBC_028CX_056CX_012CX_RAM_Hardware_Reference_Sep82.pdf

So the P2 connector has been defined a number of times by Intel, and
defined by other Multibus producers, for various purposes. iLBX
apparently was an expanded-address memory bus with ECC and maybe other
features. Blocking out use of the memory-dedicated slots to avoid P2
conflicts seems reasonable. I imagine Multibus cards with P1-only
connections not using the P2 connector could be used in the slots.

https://www.retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/386intel/i386_multi.html

a 386/12 based system 320 w/Xenix I have, also Bill Beech.

https://www.retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/386intel/sys320_power.html

discussion of the System 320 power supply and backplane.

https://www.retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/386intel/sys320_mobo_p2.jpg

https://www.retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/386intel/Intel_320_Schematics.7z

The P2 area is open for per-slot use with wire-wrap pins. a handful of
lines are routed to a common header. Bill and I produced a schematic,
the -a schematic appears to be the P2 connectors.

https://bitsavers.org/pdf/intel/_catalog/1995_Intel_OEM_Boards_Systems_and_Software.pdf

a 1995 catalog of Intel board products, one of the few online documents
for 386 Intel Multibus boards (that I found today). The 386/12 and
386/24 support iLBX and are "32 bit". Chip dates on Scott's 386/24 may
date its date of manufacture, or it may have PC board dates.

As for the barking dog:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Adventure_of_Silver_Blaze

"the incident of the dog in the night-time".

regards Herb

--

Herb Johnson, New Jersey USA

http://www.retrotechnology.com or .net

preserve and restore 1970's personal computing

email: hjohnson @ retrotechnology dot com

[scott baker]

I did try pluging one of my other multibus boards, one that does not use P2 into the slot, and it does work fine -- so that much is good. I would have hated to lose the slots.

I do have an 010EX (not 010CX) board on the way, which I'm assuming supports the local bus as well. I don't suppose  anyone has jumper settings for the "EX", do you? I know on Bill's site he mentions he has a few of the "EX" memory boards on hand. I needed a memory board for the 286 that is on the way, and the EX was the cheapest way to get there.

I'm also not beyond designing my own 1MB board if I need to. I've already made a board that can go to 512K, but it was only 8-bit.

Scott

[Royce Taft]

I’m also interested in documentation for EX memory boards. I have an 040EX I will eventually want to play with. 

This is all I’ve found online:

Royce

Sent from my iPhone

On May 26, 2025, at 11:58, scott baker <smb...@gmail.com> wrote:

I did try pluging one of my other multibus boards, one that does not use P2 into the slot, and it does work fine -- so that much is good. I would have hated to lose the slots.

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[William Beech]

Guys,

I will dig around and see what I have and where the jumpers are set.  Not tonight, though!

Bill

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/intel-devsys/10F6A79A-AD10-45DC-8AEA-C2ECA63BEC99%40gmail.com.

[scott baker]

My next question is, "how the heck do I get files from <anywhere else> to the iRMX-86 computer?"

I don't seem to have xmodem, or kermit, or anything useful like that. There are "upcopy" and "downcopy" tools which are supposed to be able to work to transfer files to/from another development system but I have yet to figure out how to make those work. It seems I may have to boot iRMX from the development system to the target system, using a iSBC-957 kit (which seems like a fancy part number for a null modem cable). I did find a program called apxlod that I tried to run from my iPDS, but it doesn't seem to be talking. Maybe it doesn't like the iPDS's serial ports.

Scott

[William Beech]

Go to the Kermit site and see if there is a executable for iRMX.  They have had every machine I worked on at that site.

You could also use the Monitor ROM to load Intel hex files into memory.  I have used that, as well.

This is the "chicken and egg" problem we find with every new machine we try to work on.  How to get the initial boot code for the FDC into the actual hardware.  Welcome to the FUN!

Bill

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/intel-devsys/eb3aefb9-64d2-42cb-8781-4f11694e112en%40googlegroups.com.

[scott baker]

Yeah, I've been there a few times before, particularly with the Heathkit H8. The chicken-and-egg problem of how to bootstrap a machine, when you don't have a bootable floppy or any way to make one.

Fortunately, my iRMX-86 install has a working OS. I think maybe this weekend I'll write a tool to make iRMX disk images. Then I can stick Kermit or something else useful on a disk.

Scott

[William Beech]

Scott,

We have tried here to come up with tools that run on the target system that can create a bootable disk from a memory image.  I have tried and failed to shoe horn in such a code segment into the MDS-II ROM.  Just isn't quite enough space available.  More work is to be done, for sure.

This problem is also hitting the guys trying to bring up the old Intel minicomputers like the Intel 310 and 320.  Problem is they can't create bootable disks on a PC even with a disk image file like IMG or DMK.

I have a H8 around here somewhere.  And a bunch of KayPro's.  And an H-89.  

Bill 

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/intel-devsys/0459307a-012a-4c82-988d-90e98c581cc1n%40googlegroups.com.

[Herbert Johnson]

I'm losing patience. And Bill is right. We've done this before, and this
is the fun part. Let's have some fun, right?

First - let's get the subject line correct. Subject lines begin with
"intel-devsys" followed by the *relevant* subject matter. The subject
matter right now I will call "irmx-86 external file transfer".

Second - Everyone is looking for the *easy way* - some magic dongle,
some magic serial file-transfer program that does-it-all and requires no
human intervention. already written for the target OS (imrx-86) and the
providing OS (Windows, Linux, whatever), and already on some diskette
image to download. Internet-transfer solutions.

"Sometimes, the hard way is the easiest way." Do what we did decades
ago, for this decades-old hardware/software. Boot. Strap. Build what you
need, from what you can obtain.

Start with your ROM program on iRMX-86 and your modern computer. They
have means to accept and emit files (or images in RAM) as ASCII text
streams. (If you send binary-as-text, you'll send some EOF or some
control code and mess up the transfer.) Gee, what way do we have to send
binary file contents in text codes? Hmmm ... Intel hex record format?
OK? Need I explain the benefits?

If you don't have a iRMX serial-terminal and file open/close program?
*write one*. Find someone else's terminal/file program and *modify it*.
How many 8086 programs exist in source to do this?? Change the serial
port code, change the file open/close read/write code.

Or: *kermit*, the "one ring to rule them all", as Bill Beech said:
Google google google ...

https://www.columbia.edu/kermit/archive.html

I spy with my eye, three irmx-86 programs. use your browser text-search
for the links. They are in PL/M-86, no binary. There's a working iRMX-86
PL/M, I think, either in emulation or on someone's iRMX-86 system. In
the very worst case, rewrite the code into assembler. Or use some other
8086 OS to compile most of it and then patch with ASM-86 for iRMX I/O
and file exchange.

Or: as I said, find some MS-DOS 8086 source or CP/M-86 8086 source for a
terminal/file program. Fix that. Work your way to XMODEM, it's a
widespread protocol for binary files.

YOu have to send the terminal/download program to the iRMX system a few
times to get it right. The serial ROM code monitor is the means to do
that. Right?

------------------------------------------

Now you can send a file, multiple ways. OK? Doesn't matter if it only
goes at 9600 baud, 2400 baud, 300 baud. OK? Speed it up later.

Next - Once you can transfer one file, reliably, however painfully? Then
you can send other files that will make transfers less painful.

Less Painful #1 - serial dongle to USB flash drive. This was solved
before for ISIS Intel systems. Solved decades ago for other
microcomputers. "Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander".

https://www.retrotechnology.com/restore/isis.html#hobby

Read the fine Web page segment, it points to other Web pages. It's ISIS
ASM code - migrate it to 8086 and iRMX-86 code.

*unfortunately*, once again Hobbytronics isn't offering the V2.4 host
controller (follow the link). They will sell you the preprogrammed PIC24
microcontroller IC. At least they are supporting the programmed device.

They are in the UK, expect delays and import duties but it's a 10-euro
chip: so buy a few chips for your friends. *caution*, the flash-drive
file system support may be limited to FAT-32 no long file names etc. 2GB
flash drives might be the limit. I don't remember because it doesn't matter.

I'll bet you can hand-wire the board in a few days. The worst part is
the USB connector. Maybe someone can lay out a PC board. Maybe someone
will sell one of their spare Hobbytronics controller boards?

Google says ... https://www.fischl.de/usbula/

Did they copy the Hobbytronic solution? They want 38 euros for their
board, including 19% VAT. For 99 euros you can look at the PIC source
(but not distribute, make 25 more devices yourself).

And if you are unhappy with the HObbytronics/PIC24 solution, there's a
generation of Arduino "serial monitor to USB drive" solutions. And even
older "serial monitor to SDcard" solutions.

But then you have to decide: is your goal iRMX file transfers? or is
your goal to make serial USB mass storage? The goals overlap.

----------

This is work that was already done, a decade ago, for ISIS support. The
Arduino work was done two decades ago for 8-bit micro work. There's
nothing wrong with using someone else's work to do something similar,
instead of a) reinventing the wheel or b) deciding making a wheel is too
hard and looking for someone else's read made wheel.

regards Herb Johnson

>>>> preview.png
>>>> 280142-001 iSBC 012EX,010EX,020EX,and 040EX High Performance
>>>> RAM Boards-Oct86

>>>> <https://mark-ogden.uk/files/intel/publications/280142-001%20iSBC%20012EX%2C010EX%2C020EX%2Cand%20040EX%20High%20Performance%20RAM%20Boards-Oct86.pdf>
>>>> PDF Document · 313 KB
>>>> <https://mark-ogden.uk/files/intel/publications/280142-001%20iSBC%20012EX%2C010EX%2C020EX%2Cand%20040EX%20High%20Performance%20RAM%20Boards-Oct86.pdf>
>>>>
>>>> <https://mark-ogden.uk/files/intel/publications/280142-001%20iSBC%20012EX%2C010EX%2C020EX%2Cand%20040EX%20High%20Performance%20RAM%20Boards-Oct86.pdf>

>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/intel-devsys/ee58f6f5-39b0-48a2-b218-b03876dcb904n%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/intel-devsys/ee58f6f5-39b0-48a2-b218-b03876dcb904n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

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>>>> from it, send an email to intel-devsys...@googlegroups.com.
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>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/intel-devsys/10F6A79A-AD10-45DC-8AEA-C2ECA63BEC99%40gmail.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/intel-devsys/10F6A79A-AD10-45DC-8AEA-C2ECA63BEC99%40gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

>>>
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>>
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[Herbert Johnson]

Bill Beech has <a
href="https://www.nj7p.info/Computers/boards.html">EAGLE files for a
"RS-232 Serial to USB Adapter" dongle PC board hosting the PIC24 (DIP
version). The Hobbytronics site sells the surfact mount version, which I
suppose could be soldered on a DIP header. Or program your own $5
"PIC24FJ64GA002" from Digikey, Mouser, etc.

Again my Hobbytronics content is at:

https://www.retrotechnology.com/restore/isis.html#hobby

With recent updates. - regards Herb

[scott baker]

I would argue (as part of a friendly debate, of course) that SneakerNet is one of the oldest forms of file transfer, and all I need to do is get the files I want onto a floppy, and move the floppy from the computer on my left to the computer on my right. The files existed on disk at one time; we need only put them on disk again. Greaseweazle writes the images to physical media. A program to read and write the iRMX filesystem from Linux would take me a weekend at most, or a couple evenings. There's at least one python program out there on github that already reads but does not write iRMX images. I'll write mine in Go, as an exercise. Once I have that, it's quick and efficient to move Kermit, or a c compiler, or a c compiler with xmodem source code, to the target system.

But as Herb points out, we can do better than SneakerNet. The hobbytronics usb-to-serial may not be available, but the VDIP1 (https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/ftdi-future-technology-devices-international-ltd/VDIP1/1836379) is in plentiful supply. The H8 guys (notably Glenn) have written C software to transfer files to/from the VDIP1 with a simple GET and PUT command-line syntax. The VDIP1 merely needs to be wired to an 8-bit IO port to make it work. No UART to slow things down. But it gets even better than that -- I have previously turned a raspberry pi into a VDIP1 emulator, which behaves to the target system exactly like the VDIP1, but has the advantage that I can SSH into it and NFS mount it.

But it would also be fun to get the original "UPCOPY" and "DOWNCOPY" tools working. This is what the OS shipped with for file transfer from a development system. There was always a way to do this all the way back to the beinning.

Computer science is an exercise in reinventing the same thing over and over again. Always has been. Always will be.

Scott

[William Beech]

Scott/Herb,

Sneaker net works fine if you can write disks on a PC that will work in the target system.  But what if you can't?  This was the problem we had with the MDS.  Especially with the difference with MFM and M2FM on double density.

One can use an SBC like the RPi to emulate a device on the target system, and use the modern connectivity it provides to get the device image on it.  This is how Dave built the HD emulator.  The grease weasel is another choice, as you point out.  The VDIP1 looks like a good, new, replacement for the Hobbytronics device we tried earlier. 

You have those original tools?  Using them would be a nod to the iRMX originators at Intel. 

Amen!

But you are right, we can do better!  What is the better answer for the "chicken and egg" problem in 2025?

Bill

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[scott baker]

They had the same problem with the H8 and its hard sectored disks. Folks came up with a solution where you keyed in a loader via the keypad, which downloaded a program over serial, which in turn downloaded the disk image and then wrote it via the onboard controller. Same as one of the workflows that Herb described. I think we all know that sort of process. But these are processes of last resort. Do them once or twice, you don't need to go through that process again.

I did build a pi-based SBC-202 emulator, and I would use it were it not that I don't think iRMX supports the SBC-202. It was a slick way to go -- write a file in Linux, and it's "just there" in ISIS.

Scott

[mark.p...@btinternet.com]

Many of the available iRMX disks have IMD images available. If you have an older MSDOS (or Windows) system capable of using IMD, along with an appropriate disk drive, you should be able to recreate the disks using IMD itself as I don’t believe iRMX used M2FM, it did however used larger sectors on all but the boot track.

Later versions if iRMX had support for Ethernet and NFS, which would have been another route.

 

A more complex option which has benefits, would be to write a program to create an iRMX disk on a non iRMX system. As there are several iRMX configurations, my personal thoughts would be to use iRMX to create a formatted disk, which would record its structure and write boot tracks. The new program would read the key structure information off the disk and add files. If the files are relatively small this is reasonably simple, larger files are a little more complex but do-able. Most of the details of the logic are already documented, and I have implemented them in my unidsk/unirmx tools, to extract files. The only key element I haven’t addressed is the free space map, which I didn’t need to look at for file extraction. I suspect however that it is a simple bit map. There are other files I haven’t addressed, however I don’t believe you would need to alter these.

 

Deep in history, I remember as a student in 1978-79, when I first came across an Intel MDS, I wrote s simple bootstrap copy program on a CP/M machine, which I read in as HEX using the ISIS COPY command, then converted using HEXOBJ. I then used this to copy a more powerful file transfer program that I wrote to copy bigger files. It was much simpler than Kermit, but I used it to copy many files using a short serial cable.

 

Mark

 

From: intel-...@googlegroups.com <intel-...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of scott baker

Sent: 28 May 2025 04:01
To: intel-devsys <intel-...@googlegroups.com>

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/intel-devsys/01444009-8305-484f-a690-0f38227f4683n%40googlegroups.com.

[William Beech]

Scott,

All too true.  I basically use the hex load feature to get stuff onto the target system.  Then handle it as necessary.  But it is always a PITA!  We have all done this way too many times ont too many different systems.  I have watched the H8 group as they worked this problem.

I would like to have you share your SBC-202 emulator on the RPi on the google share.  We could use it!

BTW, the file we discussed is no longer on the google drive.  Thanks for that!

Thanks!

Bill

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/intel-devsys/01444009-8305-484f-a690-0f38227f4683n%40googlegroups.com.

[scott baker]

Thanks Mark and Bill,

I'll have the "rmx86 disk image manipulator" tool written tomorrow. I already made great progress on it one evening this week. It's about another evening or a saturday morning away from being usable. Don't even need to start with a freshly-formatted disk as "DELETE" is one of the first operations I usually write in tools like this. Just grab any old disk and delete all the files from it. Then add what you want. The free space map and the free inode map do appear to be simple bitmaps, though the disk image I'm looking at is showing some sectors marked as allocated, that I can't find a file or other data structure to account for. So I can't say I haven't messed it up... Documentation on the file format is excellent, easily sufficient to write a tool to manipulate the images.

Bill, the SBC-202 emulator ought to be all checked in at https://github.com/sbelectronics/multibus/tree/master/boards/diskboard for the hardware and https://github.com/sbelectronics/multibus/tree/master/pdisk for the software. I can't say I've documented everything needed to reproduce it, but it should be pretty close. The board also implements a couple multimodule slots (of course!) and some 8-bit RAM. One of the nice things about emulating an SBC-202 is that the board inherently needs to be able to bus master, which means you can via the raspberry pi do peeks and pokes and such against memory.

Also, Bill, I got my 286 and my 010-EX boards. If you happen to get a chance to look into those jumper settings...

Scott

[mark.p...@btinternet.com]

Scott

In case you hadn’t spotted, there are a couple of quirks to note

1. Clusters do not cross track boundaries. This means that if the first track, which usually has 128 byte sectors isn’t exactly a multiple of the cluster size, the last cluster has padding added. If you are processing the disk as a file image, you will need to adjust the cluster to file location accordingly, also in the unlikely case where you need to write the cluster you need to truncate it.
2. Some of the clusters are reserved and do not appear in the directory. Common ones are the system boot file and the fnodes. This is probably why some clusters are marked as allocated.

 

From: intel-...@googlegroups.com <intel-...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of scott baker
Sent: 31 May 2025 01:36
To: intel-devsys <intel-...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: intel-devsys file transfers under iRMX-86

 

Thanks Mark and Bill,

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/intel-devsys/f50cc597-6956-4426-9934-5b3371220c0dn%40googlegroups.com.

[mark.p...@btinternet.com]

Scott

I also forgot to mention don’t delete any of the special files. Most are needed for basic operation, also some require a fixed location e.g. r?ISOLABEL and r?VOLUMELABEL, which are allocated blocks spanning their real locations which are not on block boundaries.

By not deleting r?ISOLABEL you are unlikely to encounter the first track missing sector issue.

Mark

 

 

From: mark.p...@btinternet.com <mark.p...@btinternet.com>
Sent: 31 May 2025 10:12
To: 'intel-...@googlegroups.com' <intel-...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: RE: intel-devsys file transfers under iRMX-86

 

Scott

In case you hadn’t spotted, there are a couple of quirks to note

1. Clusters do not cross track boundaries. This means that if the first track, which usually has 128 byte sectors isn’t exactly a multiple of the cluster size, the last cluster has padding added. If you are processing the disk as a file image, you will need to adjust the cluster to file location accordingly, also in the unlikely case where you need to write the cluster you need to truncate it.
2. Some of the clusters are reserved and do not appear in the directory. Common ones are the system boot file and the fnodes. This is probably why some clusters are marked as allocated.

 

From: intel-...@googlegroups.com <intel-...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of scott baker
Sent: 31 May 2025 01:36
To: intel-devsys <intel-...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: intel-devsys file transfers under iRMX-86

 

Thanks Mark and Bill,

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/intel-devsys/f50cc597-6956-4426-9934-5b3371220c0dn%40googlegroups.com.

[scott baker]

Thanks Mark,

I got it written last night. I did have some complication converting my raw image back into IMD format, perhaps due to that track 0 issue as you mentioned, or maybe I just botched the conversion. I really hate dealing with images where track0 is a different format than the other tracks. I ended up adding the option to work on IMD files directly with the side-benefit that it saves me both directions of conversion (IMD -> RAW, RAW -> IMD). I was able to test last night that I could read a file on the 310. Also, I found the explanation for my allocated blocks. They were the FNodeFile and RootDirectory. These are the only two fnodes that don't appear in the root directory. My tool includes a "chkdsk" feature, but I based it on only things which were reachable from the root dir. Anyhow, it'll be a simple fix.

Here's a quick demo:

$ echo "Hello, World" > hello.txt

$ rmxtool put hello.txt
Stored 13 bytes to FNode 7 (hello.txt)

rmxtool$ rmxtool dir
Name               FNode     Size  Type        Flags  Accessors
----               -----     ----  ----        -----  ---------
R?SPACEMAP             1       80  VolMap      A P    R:65535
R?FNODEMAP             2        6  FNodeMap    A P    R:65535
R?BADBLOCKMAP          4       80  BadBlock    A P    R:65535
R?VOLUMELABEL          5     3328  VolLabel    A P    R:65535
hello.txt              7       13  Data        A P    DRAU:0 DRAU:65535

$ rmxtool get hello.txt -o -
Hello, World
Wrote 13 bytes to stdout

[mark.p...@btinternet.com]

Scott

I have occasionally seen that the accounting file is not in the directory but has an fnode allocated.

In terms of delete, it is probably safest to only delete “data” files, keeping the other special files.

Mark

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/intel-devsys/f0a3279f-993e-424b-aee6-fe5894f9ae3bn%40googlegroups.com.

[scott baker]

.and finally, I have success with C:

- submit /lang/ccmake.csd(hello)
- /lang/cc86 hello.c debug include(:sd:inc/)
iRMX 86 C-86 COMPILER V2.0
Copyright Intel Corporation 1983, 1984
- /lang/link86 hello.obj,/lib/cc86/sqmain.obj,/lib/cc86/sclib.lib,&
**/lib/small.lib,/lib/cc86/87null.lib to hello.86 &
**BIND SEGSIZE(STACK(2000H),MEMORY(5000H)) MAP
iRMX 86 8086 LINKER, V2.0
- END SUBMIT /lang/ccmake.csd
- hello.86
Hello, World!

Scott

[William Beech]

Scott,

Good!  Bookmarked the links.

The manual for the 286/10 is https://www.nj7p.info/Manuals/PDFs/Intel/147532-001.pdf.  We don't have the manual for the iSBC 010EX.  I will go dig out some boards, if I have an 010!  Sure would like to have the manuals on the CX and EX RAM boards!

Okay.  I dug out a bunch of boards. 

I have two iSBX 010EX boards.  They are PBA 147922-013.  They are jumpered identically.  Starting at the bottom left, holding the connectors down, we have:
E13-E14
E15-E16
E17-E18
Moving to the right along the bottom
E23-E24
E35-E36
E39-E40
Moving to the right along the bottom
E66-E68
Moving to the right along the bottom
E45-E46
E51-E52
E55-E56
E57-E58
E60-E61
E62-E63
At the upper right
E3 -E4
That's it for those.  I tested the first 800 KB of these RAMS in the Intel 310, so I know thew were addressed for the bottom of memory.

I have several iSBC 286/10 boards.  They are PBA 146251-006 AL with ROMS 174894[001-004]. Also PWA 146251-006 F CK with ROMS 174894[001-004].  Also PWA 146251-006 HK L with ROMS 174894[001-004].  Do any of these match your board?  The ASSY/PWA/PBA number is usually on a white label on the upper left of the board.  Those were the CPU boards in the Intel 310 machine.

Bill

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/intel-devsys/f50cc597-6956-4426-9934-5b3371220c0dn%40googlegroups.com.

[scott baker]

Thanks Bill,

I will try out those jumpers today. I tried the EX board as-is last night with no luck -- no output on serial. The 286/10 is a 146251-006.

I designed a 16-bit 1MB board have submitted an order to jlcpcb. Also made a VDIP1 multimodule. We'll see how that order goes -- I haven't done this since the Tariff thing happened. I paid an extra 60% for the boards and an extra 30% on shipping (I dunno why the shipping is affected, but it seems to have been).

Also, back to the subject of this thread -- my rmxtool disk image manipulator is available at https://github.com/sbelectronics/rmxtool. It's good enough for my own use, but no claims on it working for anyone else.

Scott

[scott baker]

Also, the jumpers on my EX board are identical to yours. Are you installing yours in one of the iLBX slots (the two slots closest to the CPU board) or somewhere else?

Scott

[Jon Hales]

Scott, Bill, Mark

When looking for a different manual, I noticed Intel 230990-001, also known as AP-174:

    "Optimizing the iRMX-86 Operating System Performance on System 86/310 and System 86/330" (26 pages)

    Appendix B describes a "Definition File of an Optimized iRMX-86 Operating System" with lists of settings/files relevant for 215/218 and other devices.

This document doesn't appear to exist anywhere else. I'll get it scanned.

Regards

Jon

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/intel-devsys/adeda963-31dd-4074-b3f2-c250ba03caf7n%40googlegroups.com.

[mark.p...@btinternet.com]

Scott

I have recently been in contact with Kevin Thacker who has a collection of RMX and ISIS disks his late father collected. He has sent me some of the backups of these disks which I intend to add to my Intel repository.

A file which may be of particular interest is the Intel RMXDISK.EXE tool, written to transfer files between iRMX and DOS.

The signon information and help is shown at the end of the posting :

 

In the collection there is also a file transfer tool for DOS to/from MDS written by Genesis

 

Other gems include the PLM51/ASM51 tool chain to run on DOS.

 

Mark

 

iRMX/DOS File Transfer Utility, V1.3

Copyright 1988 Intel Corporation

Copyright (c) Microsoft Corp 1984, 1985, 1986, 1987. All rights reserved.

- help

the following commands are available:

 

attachdevice <dos device>: as :<logical name>:

attachdevice <rmx partition>: as :<logical name>:

detachdevice :<logical name>:

dir :<logical name>:[rmx pathname]

createdir :<logical name>:<rmx pathname>

delete :<logical name>:<rmx pathname>

attachfile :<logical name>:<rmx pathname> as :<logical name>:

detachfile :<logical name>:

copy :<logical name>:<rmx pathname> to|over [<dos device>:][dos pathname]

copy [<dos device>:][dos pathname] to|over :<logical name>:[rmx pathname]

submit [<dos device>:][dos pathname]

cd [<dos device>:][dos pathname]

!<dos command line>

exit

quit

help

 

From: intel-...@googlegroups.com <intel-...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of scott baker
Sent: 02 June 2025 02:54
To: intel-devsys <intel-...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: intel-devsys file transfers under iRMX-86

 

Also, the jumpers on my EX board are identical to yours. Are you installing yours in one of the iLBX slots (the two slots closest to the CPU board) or somewhere else?

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/intel-devsys/adeda963-31dd-4074-b3f2-c250ba03caf7n%40googlegroups.com.

[William Beech]

Scott,

Do you have the 174894[001-004] ROM set?  I have attached the 4 ROM BIN files.  -001 is U41, -002 is U76, -002 is U40, and -004 is U75.   The chips are D27128-3's.

The iSBC 286/10A manual seems to cover the jumpers on the iSBC 286/10 board.  It will take me some time to give you a pin-by-pin jumper layout.  There are only 270 jumper pins!

I grabbed your rmxtool.  I have never used GO so guess it will be a learning experience!

Bill

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/intel-devsys/6b113566-1734-427a-aa07-3116ece74ee6n%40googlegroups.com.

[William Beech]

They were in the iLBX slots.

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/intel-devsys/adeda963-31dd-4074-b3f2-c250ba03caf7n%40googlegroups.com.

[William Beech]

Jon,

Thanks!

Bill

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/intel-devsys/CANPXPJnqgDjrPw2XDD3O7GmB83fc9q2baur4dxDJNhWLw9q0Tg%40mail.gmail.com.

[William Beech]

Guys,

I found I was in possession of three Intel 341 RAM/ROM adapter boards for the iSBC 286/10.  One only contained a SRAM chip, but the other two contain "SDM40" and "RAM Zapper" in three 27128 EPROMS.  I will read them out and see what they are.

Bill

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/intel-devsys/bcb463a5-b702-4722-9f90-813ffd631cd8%40nj7p.org.

[scott baker]

Thanks Bill,

I did go through the 286/10 manual, paying attention to as many of the jumper settings as I could stand to. I didn't notice anything out of the ordinary. Also, there's a sticker on my board that says it was working in a 310, and the ROMs were moved to another board (why? maybe they got a faster one?).

Does your working-in-a-310 286 board have any local RAM attached to the four RAM sockets? My was missing all ROMs and all RAM, so I'm not sure if it should have RAM installed, or if it relies entirely on the external RAM.

Scott

[Jon Hales]

Hi Scott, Mark, Bill, others

I'm attaching the scanned copy of 230990-001 Optimizing iRMX-86 etc. The PDF is not searchable on this occasion.

Regards

Jon

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/intel-devsys/95afad7f-6449-42dd-86b7-694cf99d0e1fn%40googlegroups.com.

[William Beech]

Scott,

Maybe they got a iSBC 286/12.  We used all 10's and 10A's in the several dozen 310's we ran.  Far as I can see, all the 10's and 10A's all used the one ROM set I sent you.  Most of my boards have the ROM's still in them.

No.  All the RAM was external.  We used iLBX RAM in the 310's as it was faster.  I got three iSBX 341 boards from a sale on eBay.  The 310's we used almost all had two iSBC 040EX RAM boards.  Lots of RAM for Xenix.

I also got a bunch of Cisco AGS/AGM boards with my initial haul.  These include some CSC-1 68000 CPU boards same as the SUN-1 CPU board.  Another project!

Bill

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/intel-devsys/95afad7f-6449-42dd-86b7-694cf99d0e1fn%40googlegroups.com.

[William Beech]

Thanks, Jon!

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/intel-devsys/CANPXPJm0%3Dt%3Dm-EsMwjD6pwn_TEZA7xxgTXaJaAXmeLwVaC4CMQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[William Beech]

Scott,

Does your 286/10 work with the ROM set I sent?  Or are you testing the RAM with 86/30?

Bill

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/intel-devsys/95afad7f-6449-42dd-86b7-694cf99d0e1fn%40googlegroups.com.

[Jon Hales]

Scott

I've checked my 286/10 board (having understood your board would be a 286/10A).

The four EPROMs are a different set from Bill's, namely 147072-001 to 004. These are 27128s.

The labels on the board are:

- PWA 146251-006 HK SNP06622 (lower right side)

- AA 174079-004 (left side, middle)

- ASSY 145691-011 (left side, upper)

Next to the EPROMs (lower left), there's a daughter board marked PWA 146283-003 HK SNP05829. This board is described as '82289 EMULATOR'.

There are no ICs installed in the three sockets to the right of the 286: U53, U54, U66. U87 has a wider spacing. In the manual for the 286/10A, Figure F-1 shows the iSBC 341 fitting these four connectors.

Regards

Jon

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/intel-devsys/dee91108-1bd1-4977-8dc4-d26ce4f39cb5%40nj7p.org.

[scott baker]

I believe I've tried a couple of EPROM sets that I got on bitsavers, which I think included the one Bill sent -- I'll look up the numbers tonight. It's good to know that I don't need to have local RAM on the board.

I haven't been able to see anything on the serial port for the 286/10. Nothing at all. I tried testing the RAM board with both the 286/10 and the (known working) 86/30 and never got an indication the RAM board was working. I don't even know if it can work with the 86/30, especially if it is jumpered in iLBX mode or something like that. Thanks for the manual, Jon.

There are some diagnostic steps I can take. For example, I can burn my own program to ROM that doesn't need RAM and outputs a character to the serial port. That would be sufficient to tell whether the 286/10 is working or not. Then I could even write a RAM test and output the result to serial. I can consider some of this over the weekend. It's a pain having a double-unknown -- I don't know whether it's the 286/10 that's the problem, the 010EX, or both. But there are steps I can take to find out.

Scott

[Jon Hales]

Hi Scott

I have a similar situation with the 10-pin IDC serial port on my 386/24 - no indication of signals. I worked around this by connecting directly to the 8251 - which showed me the initial screen. I linked the probes to a laptop via an FTDI serial to USB adapter.

I would appreciate an indication of the connection arrangement of the 10-pin serial cable to the IDC connector on your 386 board and how this is brought out on the back plate - e.g. 9-pin or 26-pin socket and pinout of both ends if you have the information. I'm not aware of hardware manuals for the 386 boards.

I have another manual for you when I'm able to scan it. It's "147407-001 iRMX-86 Operating System Quick Reference". That's 'Quick' as in 128 pages (which is concise by comparison with the set of manuals for iRMX-86). I'm awaiting a scanner that can handle a wire-spiral-bound volume.

Jon

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/intel-devsys/5e68ad09-9871-453b-b6e7-9d7e2516e7b9n%40googlegroups.com.

[Jon Hales]

Hi Scott

Correction: the 386/20 manual ("148550-001 iSBC-20P ... Hardware Reference Manual-Jan86.pdf") has the serial interface detailed on page 4-33. There's a line that states "Section 3.5 shows the cable assembly to interface J1 to a 9-pin DCE, 25-pin DCE and 25-pin DTE connector". These variations are on pages 3-5 to 3-8.

I assume the layout would be the same for the later 386 boards.

This manual has been scanned (I found it in Mark Ogden's collection).

Regards

Jon

[William Beech]

Jon,

Could you copy the 4 EPROMS for me.  I don't have that code.

Thanks!

Bill

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/intel-devsys/CANPXPJkiqqE0JoSH0G0Qh248rGHukawqYFeVK_xEOssELwehZw%40mail.gmail.com.

[William Beech]

Scott,

Attached is a manual with all the jumper settings for any 310 configuration.  Does this help?  It is on Archive.org as well.

Bill

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/intel-devsys/5e68ad09-9871-453b-b6e7-9d7e2516e7b9n%40googlegroups.com.

[William Beech]

Scott,

Do you have the iSBC 304 DRAM card for your iSBC 86/30?  I am designing a replacement since I loaned my only one to someone.  Never got it back.

Bill

On 6/4/2025 6:51 AM, scott baker wrote:

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/intel-devsys/5e68ad09-9871-453b-b6e7-9d7e2516e7b9n%40googlegroups.com.

[William Beech]

Jon,

Here is the 386 connector.

Bill

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/intel-devsys/CANPXPJmvx2YJ54d5pCiQvEpBpdM2ieKOmr05Lk90xk6TYZmfDA%40mail.gmail.com.

[scott baker]

Bill, I installed your  174894 rom set and tried it this evening. Behavior is a little bit different than what I saw with the last ROM set I tried. With yours, I'm seeing the two red LEDs on the board steadily blinking. There's still no serial output. I checked all jumpers and all are set per the 230990-001 manual with the following exceptions:

* Manaul: 66-88. My board: 86-88. I'm assuming this is a misprint in the manual, as 66-88 doesn't make sense.

* Manual: (unpopulated). My board: 214-215. This looks like an output jumper. Probably doesn't matter.

I can see no evidence that the 286 board is accessing the multibus at all. No port operations. No memory operations. It just sits there and blinks red, like it is mad about something.

Scott

[Herbert Johnson]

On 6/5/2025 10:22 PM, scott baker wrote:

> I can see no evidence that the 286 board is accessing the multibus at
> all. No port operations. No memory operations. It just sits there and
> blinks red, like it is mad about something.

You seem stuck. That's when (apparently) random acts can be productive.

Umm, any testing with an oscilloscope, on chip selects for memory or I/O
chips like the UARTs? Look at the processor address lines, see if they
are wriggling? data lines?

If you are looking for "evidence", there's places to look, even if you
don't capture logic states or decode addresses or instructions. And a
stuck logic line is particularly informative, if you see one along the way.

If you literally want "access the Multibus" testing, use an extender
card and probe the Multibus lines at the extender connector. Or from
the backplane of course.

For on-board signals when it's buried in the chassis, solder a wire to
your test point and bring it out that way. More tedious but a few tested
signals may be informative.

Just throwing this out: if the ROMs are odd/even, and you have them
backwards, that would not produce executable code. I've made such
errors. Also: should the "red LED" be blinking at all, or just steady?
Beats me, I didn't read the manual.

regards Herb

On 6/5/2025 10:22 PM, scott baker wrote:
> Bill, I installed your 174894 rom set and tried it this evening.
> Behavior is a little bit different than what I saw with the last ROM set
> I tried. With yours, I'm seeing the two red LEDs on the board steadily
> blinking. There's still no serial output. I checked all jumpers and all
> are set per the 230990-001 manual with the following exceptions:
>
> * Manaul: 66-88. My board: 86-88. I'm assuming this is a misprint in the
> manual, as 66-88 doesn't make sense.
> * Manual: (unpopulated). My board: 214-215. This looks like an output
> jumper. Probably doesn't matter.
>
> I can see no evidence that the 286 board is accessing the multibus at
> all. No port operations. No memory operations. It just sits there and
> blinks red, like it is mad about something.
>
> Scott

[scott baker]

I haven't had a chance to do a write-up on it yet, but attached is a picture of my "multibus debug board". It has 6 TIL311 dispays. Four of them show 16-bit address and two of them show 8-bit data byte (this is before I ever imagined jumping into 16-bit data bus boards with 20-bit address space; I meant to go no further than 8080/8085 boards, but here I am...). It can be set to trap on IOR, IOW, MEMRD, or MEMWR. It's not getting a single hit when the 286 board is installed so I can be confident there is no multibus traffic. 

The two red LEDs on the 286/10 are "user programmable" and attached to the 8255. So the monitor is probably blinking them on purpose because it's mad about something.

My oscilloscope has a 16-bit logic analyzer built in, so I can easily start wiring up the board to watch signals and get an idea of what's going on. Other things that have tripped me up in the past have been issues with bus priority -- if a board thinks it can't get access to the multibus, then you won't see any traffic.

The other thing I can do is assemble a program that I am certain only requires on-board resources and burn it to ROM. For example, something that just sits there and writes characters to the UART, or blinks a pattern I would recognize to the two LEDs. If I can convince myself that CPU, ROM, UART, and 8255 are working, then I can move to testing offboard RAM and multibus.

So there's steps to take. I just gotta decide how much time and effort I want to invest in the 286 board.

Scott

[Herbert Johnson]

Well, you've framed this, as choices within your resources that you
could execute or not when or if you decide to. Certainly my suggestions
are within that scheme. Soooooo ... good luck with whatever you decide
to do.

Regards Herb

On 6/5/2025 11:22 PM, scott baker wrote:
> I haven't had a chance to do a write-up on it yet, but attached is a
> picture of my "multibus debug board".
>

> The two red LEDs on the 286/10 are "user programmable" and attached to
> the 8255. So the monitor is probably blinking them on purpose because
> it's mad about something.
>
> My oscilloscope has a 16-bit logic analyzer built in,
>

> The other thing I can do is assemble a program that I am certain only
> requires on-board resources and burn it to ROM.
>

> So there's steps to take. I just gotta decide how much time and effort I
> want to invest in the 286 board.
>
> Scott
>
> On Thursday, 5 June 2025 at 20:03:02 UTC-7 Herbert Johnson wrote:
>
> On 6/5/2025 10:22 PM, scott baker wrote:
>
> > I can see no evidence that the 286 board is accessing the
> multibus at
> > all. No port operations. No memory operations. It just sits there
> and
> > blinks red, like it is mad about something.
>
> You seem stuck. That's when (apparently) random acts can be productive.
>
> Umm, any testing with an oscilloscope, on chip selects for memory or
> I/O
>

> If you literally want "access the Multibus" testing, use an extender
> card and probe the Multibus lines at the extender connector. Or from
> the backplane of course.
>
> For on-board signals when it's buried in the chassis, solder a wire to
> your test point and bring it out that way. More tedious but a few
> tested
> signals may be informative.
>
> Just throwing this out: if the ROMs are odd/even, and you have them
> backwards, that would not produce executable code. I've made such
> errors. Also: should the "red LED" be blinking at all, or just steady?
> Beats me, I didn't read the manual.
>
> regards Herb

[William Beech]

Scott,

If both red LEDs are on, it indeed means something is wrong.  They should go out and only the green LED should be on.

I am sure you have the ROMs in the correct places.  The 68-88 jumper is a misprint, for sure.  Not sure about the other.  But the ROM performs a lot of onboard testing before it prints out the prompt.  If it fails to initialize an important subsystem, you would see that behavior.  The machine will halt.  Is ALE active on the processor?

That is good.  You have to have good memory for the processor at 0000:0000.  Do you have a known good RAM card?  The iSBC 86/30 RAM is onboard.  The iSBC 286/10 has no RAM.  I would start with a card cage with just two cards, the CPU and RAM.  I suspect that is exactly what you have.

That is a good idea, but remember you have to initialize a bunch of chips to get the serial, parallel, DMA for memory refresh (unless you use the onboard SRAM sockets), etc.  That is a lot of preliminary code before you can blink the LEDs.

I would also recommend scoping the clocks out.  Those two white heat shrunk crystals in the middle of the board can easily get broken.  Been there, done that!

As a last resort, I could ship you a working CPU board and RAM board for you to try and figure out WTF is happening.

Bill

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[William Beech]

Herb,

Some good ideas in there.  This sounds like a board with a serious
problem.  I would like to know if the processor ever starts up.  I
believe ALE will show a clock then die, if the processor halts.  The
Monitor program does a bunch of go/no go tests as it initializes the
hardware.

Back to my iSBC 304 project.  I only have 32 errors and 96 warnings from
KiCAD.  Great good fun!

Bill

[Scott Baker]

The two red LEDs are not on solid -- they're blinking. I would think this indicates something critically wrong, such as "no RAM" or a problem with a peripheral device.

Since it's not sending anything out the UART (as far as I can tell), I'm guessing it's not getting anywhere near the go/no-go tests.

Tell me more about the 304 project...

Scott

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[scott baker]

I made something happen!

I pulled jumper E269-E270, "Enables iLBX/synchronous interface memory accesses when installed.". Then I jumpered my SBC-012 memory board to address 0. The boot monitor is now working on serial, SCT is running, and it has 128K memory. This reinforces my belief that the problem has been the board not being able to access RAM. I'm going to play with the LBX/synchronous jumpers and see if that's what is going on with the 010 board.

Scott

[scott baker]

... and I think I have my answer:

" A synchronous EX-series RAM board is required when the iSBC 286/10A board is configured for synchronous interface operation. In synchronous mode, iLBX memory boards (CX-series, for example) are not compatible."

So the EX series is synchronous and the CX series is LBX. The 286/10A manual mentions a set of jumpers E277-E287 that must be moved to switch the 286/10A between iLBX mode and Synchronous mode. My 286/10 board appears to not have those jumpers. Perhaps synchronous was a feature added only in the 10A. I simply have a CPU board and a RAM board that don't work together and as far as I know, can't work together. I will either need to get my hands on a CX board or a convetional multibus RAM board to make it work. Anyhow, mystery solved.

Scott

[William Beech]

Scott,

Absolutely.  This may just be NO RAM found.  But it could be almost anything else, as well.

But if the LEDs are blinking, the configuration of the 8255 has occurred.  Have you checked the 9.8 MHz crystal oscillator output.  That runs the bus clocks and the 8253 and the UART.

I have a pair of iSBC 86/30's.  I had one iSBC 304, which I lent out and was never returned.  So I need to produce the DRAM card to use the iSBC 86/30's.  I have pictures of the board.  I have the schematic, though KiCAD does not seem to believe it.  I don't have the address ROM for the 86/14, so I have to have 256 KB of memory. 

Do you use KiCAD?

Bill

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/intel-devsys/CA%2B8qVMN7_xr_iZK0KZKqeGaiDtt2FDNXiLtuKQr-fbgx6L-mwg%40mail.gmail.com.

[William Beech]

Scott,

Great!  S0 it was a NO RAM error!  iLBX only works on the CX and EX boards, I believe.  The old iSBC 012 was way before that.

Bill

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/intel-devsys/39d4c934-98c1-4ada-aa8d-64f1a4aa91bdn%40googlegroups.com.

[scott baker]

Bill, to clarify, I think there are three types of external memory buses:

1) Traditional multibus (for example, my SBC-012) using P1 connector

2) iLBX using P2 connector, for the CX series memory boards

3) Synchronous using P2 connector, for the EX series memory boards.

The 286/10 is capable of working with (1) or (2). The 286/10A is capable of working with (1) or (2) or (3). I attached the page in the 286/10A that's explaining the synchronous interface.

Scott

[William Beech]

Scott,

Good info.  It has been 40 years since I really lived with these machines.  Memory just isn't as good as it once was. 

I really wish we had the manuals for the CX and EX families of memory boards.  This is not how I remember it.

Bill

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/intel-devsys/f8a44ac3-3952-4bfd-8c67-936e30dc6a19n%40googlegroups.com.

[William Beech]

Scott,

That is clearer.  The iSBC 012 just returns bad data if memory gets corrupt.  With the CX and EX  one family of boards just detected errors.  The other one actually corrected some 1- and 2-bit errors. 

Maybe we had all 286/10A boards in the production machines.  I have a mix of both plain and A version in my stash.  And a 286/12.

Well, I am glad your board is operational.  Now to beat the memory problem!

Bill

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/intel-devsys/62bb386e-073a-4309-ae51-b0a71a3bb422n%40googlegroups.com.

[scott baker]

Manuals for the CX and EX would be very helpful. I wish we had them too.

Anyhow, by the weekend my prototype pcboards should arrive for the 16-bit memory board design I was working on. That might solve my issue, though not as performant as a CX or EX board would have been and lacking the parity support.

I'll build it over the weekend keep people posted.

Scott

[William Beech]

Scott,

Have you looked at this: https://www.nj7p.info/Manuals/PDFs/Intel/145158-001.pdf?  It is for smaller CX memory boards.

Bill

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/intel-devsys/ecda0607-9e43-47d2-8c46-ea71e4cc9caan%40googlegroups.com.

[scott baker]

Thanks Bill, I will have a look at that CX manual!

I had some fun this weekend.

The 286/10 board has turned into a complete enigma. I cannot reproduce the success I had Friday night. Refreshing my memory... last week I removed the E269-E270 jumper and got the 286/10 to work with RAM over the multibus interface rather than iLBX. I wish I'd have screenshotted it and taken some pictures. I had the SCT running, 128KB recognized, etc. Today, the most I can get out of the 286/10 is an asterisk and two spaces. I'm not sure what has gone wrong, other than perhaps when jostling it in and out, I managed to damage the 286/10 board somehow. The yellow LED is lit, meaning it thinks it is getting timeouts on multibus. So I think something went wrong with XACK signal. I haven't taken the time to diagnose this yet, but I do know the logic is all stuck inside a few PALs. So the 286/10 is going on the shelf. I wish I had another one (particularly a 10A instead of a 10) to play with.

But then things got a little better.

My pcboards arrived from JLCPCB and I built my 16-bit memory board. No luck with the 286/10, but it does work well with the 86/30 board. I also built my VDIP1 multimodule. The VDIP1 multimodule allows me to install either a Vinculum VDIP1 or a raspberry pi that emulates the VDIP1. Then I can use some command-line tools: VGET, VPUT, VCD, and VDIR -- written by Glenn Roberts for the H8 -- to transfer files to/from the VDIP1. I've attached a short demo below of me using VDIR and VGET to copy a file to iRMX. So the file transfer issue is solved. It copies about about 2 kilobytes per second. If I optimize the code I could probably do much better than that. Short demo is below. Picture is attached of the RAM board and the VDIP multimodule.

- vdir
VDIR v4 [B0]
LICENSE .               35,149  
MAKEFILE.                2,868  
OLIPORT .C                  24  
OLIPORT .H                  24  
README  .MD                811  
VCD     .C               3,430  
VDIR    .C               7,901  
VGET    .C               7,536  
VINC    .C              20,225  
VINC    .H               2,111  
VPUT    .C               5,018  
VUTIL   .C               7,018  
VUTIL   .H               1,057  
BUILD   .CSD               994  
BIN      <DIR>  
SCOTT   .TXT                32  
19 Files

- vget scott.txt
VGET v4 [260]
USB:scott.txt                 32 bytes --> scott.txt  

 
- copy scott.txt to :co:
Hello, World!
Scott Was Here.
scott.txt copied TO :co:
- 

[William Beech]

Scott,

This is the way it sometimes goes. 

If it may be a problem with RAM memory, might try cleaning the P1 connectors with and eraser and the sockets with deoxit.  Check the back plane wiring of the P1 sockets.  It is frustrating if you have no Monitor!  With a Monitor, you can debug all the rest of the stuff.

How bad do you want a 286/10A?  I need to retest them in the 310 chassis to make sure I send you a known working unit.  This may take a few days.  I have other projects ahead of it.

Looks like a 1024 MB SRAM board.  And the KiCAD is on your web site?  I have several either 6116 or 6264 SRAM boards in the multibus stash.  They were used in some of the early Cisco routers.

I don't remember much on the VDIP1 one the H8 group.  But with a RPi on board, I would expect ethernet connectivity to the RPi and serial RPi to multibus target.

I have discovered the iSBC 304 board has a ground plane and maybe a +5V AUX plane making it a 4 layer board.  I am not ready for that, so I will create a 2 layer board which is ONLY a 304, not a 300(*) or 314.  This simplifies my task.  The problem is getting the DI and DO lines routed on the board along with power.  As it is, I will need to use a bunch of vias to make it work.  And I may move which pairs of DI/DO pins go to which 74S373 registers to simplify routing.  Been years since I laid out a PC board.

Hang in there!

Bill

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/intel-devsys/7f207d26-2559-4959-96bd-008bb6c80ae5n%40googlegroups.com.

[scott baker]

I'll get the gerbers up on github eventually. The ram board was a bit of a rush job -- I tossed it in at the last minute on a jlcpcb order, so it's a bit rough around the edges. The VDIP1 has an 8-bit parallel interface, and my Pi emulates that interface. The Pi emulator came about because VDIP1 were out of stock post-pandemic. I was impatient and didn't want to wait. Transferring files to/from the H8 was a pain, and Glenn had put together these nice tools. So I just hacked together the pi emulator. Then once supply of VDIP1 modules finally returned, it turned out that I liked the emulator better than the real thing.

I don't think the issue with the 286/10 is the ram board, as the ram board (both my SBC-028 and my home built board) work fine with the 86/30. I did try moving boards around to different slots in the backplane, with no difference there. It's just a weird mystery. No rush on the 286/10A. Technically I don't "need" one at all :) But it would be fun.

Scott

[William Beech]

Scott,

I will not add testing the 286/10As to my task list.

The 304 board is being a PITA!  Now KiCAD will not allow vias under an IC socket.  Bummer!

Bill

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/intel-devsys/1f3fdc80-0b03-4aa7-82a9-391914863230n%40googlegroups.com.

[Royce Taft]

Are you using SRAM or DRAM for your memory board design?

I think many people today choose not to implement parity checking on homebrew memory boards for old systems, especially when using SRAM. 

If you ever feel the need to add parity checking on a design utilizing SRAM one option for parity memory (short of sourcing a high enough capacity 1-bit SRAM) is to use a full 8-bit SRAM chip only using one bit to store parity and the remaining 7 bits are wasted. 

If the system for which the intended memory board is slow enough, you can use all 8 bits of an SRAM chip for parity storage (and thus a lower capacity chip) with some tricks to pick out the particular bit you’re interested in. It’s tricky because modifying only one bit of parity data requires an entire byte to be read, temporarily stored in a register, the appropriate bit changed to the desired parity value, then the entire byte written back to the SRAM in a short amount of time. I’ve successfully done that on a breadboard for an IBM 5150 PC expansion bus. I don’t think it’s worth the trouble, but it certainly is interesting. If you’re interested, I’ve attached a photo of the schematic (on my cell, no laptop with me to send a cleaner copy). 

Royce

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 6, 2025, at 07:59, scott baker <smb...@gmail.com> wrote:

Manuals for the CX and EX would be very helpful. I wish we had them too.

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/intel-devsys/ecda0607-9e43-47d2-8c46-ea71e4cc9caan%40googlegroups.com.