Re: Fact vs Opinion

[Larry Sanger]

David, I'm not sure we've debated the question. Let me answer quickly and step back and let others weigh in.

There are two questions we need to determine:

1. Should Infobitt include only facts, or some combination of fact plus (clearly attributed) analysis and/or opinion?

2. What is a functional definition of "fact"?

On 1, I'm inclined to say that we should avoid any unattributed opinion or analysis, as if Infobitt itself were editorializing. Often, what someone has said in a public debate is an extremely important piece of news. The practical consequence of this is that we must pay attention to whether a fact contains analysis/opinion, and if so, be sure to attribute it. For an example of what I mean by this, see my additions to: http://www.infobitt.com/b/13106 As to the first fact that David mentions, the existence of a cultural divide in Israel seems to be something that both sides of a purported divide ought to be able to agree on. But I don't know enough about it to know whether it is broadly agreed-upon.

On 2, here's the deal. We could philosophize about the meaning of "fact" until the cows come home about this, but the practical question that, from an editorial point of view, really needs answering is: how do we distinguish facts from opinion? I favor Wikipedia's approach, or at least the version of Wikipedia's approach that I came up with, to the neutrality policy. That is, if there are or would be "significant" disagreement about the claim, among subject matter experts or among the people who are affected (e.g., citizens of Israel), then the statement is not "neutral," or is an opinion, and so needs to be attributed.

So if I'm right that pretty much everybody agrees that there is a cultural divide between conservatives and progressives in Israel, then the first statement can be treated as a fact, even if it seems very vague and hard to quantify.

OK, I'm back to (other) work. What do the rest of you think? Agree? Disagree? Another perspective entirely?

--Larry

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 12:19 PM, David Stephenson <da...@davidystephenson.com> wrote:

Infobitt delivers facts. This is emphasized extensively across the mission statement and FAQ. Obviously, what qualifies as a fact, as opposed to an opinion, is hard to pin down. It seems there may be some value in create guidelines as what qualifies as fact.

For example, earlier today Larry Sanger posted a very interesting story about a growing cultural divide in Israel: http://infobitt.com/b/13101. The opening fact, "There's a deepening cultural divide between Israel’s coastal elite and the conservative voters who re-elected Benjamin Netanyahu," is undoubtedly information, but to me seems to straddle the line between objective and subjective. I'm not sure how universally agreed upon this statement would be among stakeholders in Israel. It would be hard to confirm this statement with full clarity, as a cultural divide cannot be objectively measured.

The story's second fact, "Miri Regev, Israel’s new conservative minister of culture, has antagonized artists by telling them she will monitor their output and dispense state arts funding; artists say this is censorship," seems much less subjective. It focuses on what individuals or groups have said. At the same time, some would argue that determining what groups say or think is fundamentally subjective, as groups have no mind or voice to speak.

Of course, Larry is not the only person to hit this crosspoint between fact, opinion, and analysis. I posted earlier today about the NBA Finals: http://infobitt.com/b/13105. My third fact, "Andre Iguodala was a named Finals MVP, to both shock and acclaim from commentators, for his defensive efforts against Cavaliers star Lebron James and surprising offensive contribution," attributes shock and acclaim to "commentators," a very subjectively defined group. I stand by my bitt, but I also recognize that a reasonable person could argue that my statement is not a "fact."

What do we mean when we say "fact?" Where do we draw the line? As Infobitt continues to grow, and individuals with less than perfect intentions begin to value the leaderboard, I think answering this question could be important.

I apologize if this question has already been answered.

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Larry Sanger

Founder/CEO, Infobitt.com

[Tim Chambers]

I love the discussion. Thanks for starting it, David. I hate to sound like a yes-man to Larry, but the fact is, I think he's spot-on. I have nothing to add.

[Larry Sanger]

LOL. What? Hate to sound like a yes-man to Larry? Whyever would you hate that?

Seriously, there are lots of issues I sidestepped. Feel free to grapple with them.

--Larry

On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 9:01 PM, Tim Chambers <t...@alum.mit.edu> wrote:

I love the discussion. Thanks for starting it, David. I hate to sound like a yes-man to Larry, but the fact is, I think he's spot-on. I have nothing to add.

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[Ed Poor]

Not every difference of opinion is talked about openly.

Larry said that the existence of a cultural divide in Israel seems to be something that both sides of a purported divide ought to be able to agree on.

But whether there is any division or not could *itself* be part of the controversy.

For a couple of my favorite issues, the dominant side likes to say that there is no (significant) disagreement: global warming and evolution. Polls show more than 5% of scientists in the respective fields disagree with the (apparent) mainstream, but the dominant side does not pay attention to them. Meanwhile dissenters are treated like Holocaust deniers. 

There are several other major issues that look settled but really aren't. That's one reason I tend to post contrarian facts in other people's bitts.

Ed Poor

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[Larry Sanger]

First: if you see any bugs on the site today, please email me (la...@infobitt.com)!

We need more rankers at the moment. I had some trouble ranking myself; anyone else?

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Well, there's a difference between recognizing that disagreement exists (everybody acknowledges that there are climate change skeptics), and recognizing that the other side maters or is worth debating (in the case of climate change skeptics, not everybody thinks so).

That's not the case here. Presumably, in Israel, if one side is actually in power, and the other is making noise about an artists' strike, then anybody who says it (a) doesn't exist and (b) doesn't matter is taking a mighty curious position.

--Larry

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