So, the DA banished me from South Africa

[Stephen vJ]

I've never been a fan of the DA and their latest stunt completely sealed my dislike of this diabolical political party. If any of you were hoping to ever see me again, the DA recently ensured that, unless you're coming over here, that will never happen. I have been banished from South Africa and will never return, even for a visit. Not that I was planning to (or could afford it) anyway, but now even if I had the money and opportunity, I can't. Thanks to the DA.

It no longer matters that you have the time and money, if you don't have the correct status. The market no longer matters when, how and to where we want to go. In international travel, the commies have won.

In case you missed it, here's what happened. Some countries are fine with dual or multiple citizenship... SA is not one of them and neither is Canada. In the past, if you got citizenship of a country like Canada, your SA citizenship would automatically be revoked, unless you specifically applied to SA and Canada to retain it and assuming you had a good reason for keeping both. The default was to lose one when you got the other.

In the case of Canadian citizenship, this is automatic - when you get Canadian citizenship, Canada informs SA and your SA citizenship goes poof. In the case of Germany, they don't - you have to prove to the German government that you've renounced your SA citizenship first, before you can get German citizenship. Every country has it's own process, but in most cases it is very clear and an obvious part of the process.

Immigration involves a LOT of paperwork and you have to read and fill all of it carefully, otherwise it's going to get very slow, expensive and frustrating very quickly... so, I must have read at least 15 times that I would be losing my SA citizenship as soon as I got my Canadian citizenship. I don't see how you can successfully immigrate and still miss that... but apparently many people do. Obviously they are the ones who were not paying attention.

Anyway, a bunch of illiterate, dumbass, dyslexic or otherwise linguistically challenged immigrants missed this fact and then, for some reason not within the known universe, were shocked, surprised and disappointed at finding later that they were no longer SA citizens.

One could argue that, had SA citizenship really been that important to them, that they should maybe not have applied for citizenship of another country... but who knows what goes on in other people's skull cavities ? I understand some of them found out when they tried to vote... in an election of a country they have not lived in for years.

So the DA took up this "cause" and got the SA court to declare this long-standing practice unconstitutional... and the court decided that those "lost" citizenships should be re-instated... and, worst of all, back-dated to 1995 ! So now about 700 000 people suddenly have a citizenship they didn't want and many don't know yet they have. The DA and a few immigrants in the UK celebrated this "win" but everyone I've spoken to see this as something between a nuisance and a disaster. It's fine if this applied only to those who wanted it, but no, they imposed it on everyone.

One problem is that SA requires that citizens travel on SA passports i.e. it is illegal to enter or exit SA on a Canadian passport if you hold an SA citizenship. My SA passport expired in 2021 and my ID was chopped up by Canadian Registry when I got my Canadian drivers license in 2018, since it is illegal in Canada to have a foreign drivers license and a local one... since page 4 of the green SA barcode ID book had "Drivers license" at the top, they took that too. So I have no SA passport or ID anymore... and didn't care, since I have a Canadian passport and ID.

Enter the DA. Now I have SA citizenship again, it means I cannot travel to SA on my Canadian passport anymore. In order to renounce your SA citizenship, you have to submit your SA passport and ID, which I no longe have. To get an SA passport, you need an SA ID, which I no longer have. To get an ID, you need a birth certificate, which I no longer have... and to get a replacement, you need an ID or copies of your parent's ID's... and since my parents also immigrated, they no longer have.

That's assuming you can get this all done from outside the country. Go to the nearest consulate ? I'm in Canada. The nearest SA consulate or embassy is 3473km away. Imagine driving from Jozi to Capetown 3 times just to hear "sorry sir, the system is down, come back next week". All that to get a birth certificate so I can wait 18 months, then do it again to get an ID so I can wait 18 months and do it again to get a passport and wait 18 months so I can complete the forms with which to renounce my citizenship ? Nope. That's not happening.

Since this horrific court ruling, I have heard of several people threatened, delayed and detained by SA passport control for trying to enter or leave SA with a Canadian passport, because of an SA citizenship many of them didn't even know they had. I'm not taking that risk, so I guess that's goodbye and farewell. Thanks DA. One country I can never visit again, by no fault of my own... 286 to go.

Stephen.

[Stephen vJ]

Oh, I forgot to add... it's not just travel - there are several other problems which I won't go into now... but why would the DA do this ? Well, they know that the proportion of immigrants who tend to vote for them is higher than those inside SA... and if you lose your citizenship, you can't vote. So they screwed us all to get a few immigrant's votes. Sies !

Stephen.

On Jul 21, 2025, at 21:06, Stephen vJ <sjaar...@gmail.com> wrote:

I've never been a fan of the DA and their latest stunt completely sealed my dislike of this diabolical political party. If any of you were hoping to ever see me again, the DA recently ensured that, unless you're coming over here, that will never happen. I have been banished from South Africa and will never return, even for a visit. Not that I was planning to (or could afford it) anyway, but now even if I had the money and opportunity, I can't. Thanks to the DA.

[Ron Weissenberg]

Hi Stephen,

 

I seldom respond to the posts, except if they are full of emotion and/or hubris. Like yours 😊

 

Stephen, I am fascinated to know more details, people, can I verify/talk with them, on?:

 

" Since this horrific court ruling, I have heard of several people threatened, delayed and detained by SA passport control for trying to enter or leave SA with a Canadian passport, because of an SA citizenship many of them didn't even know they had.'

 

Much obliged,

Ron

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[mark....@imaginet.co.za]

Stephen, this sentence is simply not true, and I challenge you to find one reported case of this happening …

 

" Since this horrific court ruling, I have heard of several people threatened, delayed and detained by SA passport control for trying to enter or leave SA with a Canadian passport, because of an SA citizenship many of them didn't even know they had.'

 

SA Passport Control would have no knowledge that you are also an SA Citizen when you present a Canadian passport, so it would be extremely unlikely they would be able to “threaten, delay, or detain” someone.

 

I hold dual UK / South African Citizenship. I was not forced to relinquish either. I was however forcibly given SA Citizenship back in 1984, so I could have the pleasure of serving in the SADF. I have travelled on my UK passport in and out of SA when my SA passport had expired. The only issue I had was that on returning to SA, I had to prove I was an SA citizen and had residence in SA, as I wasn’t departing within 30 days – which I did using my SA ID Book.

 

Why do you not have your birth certificate? Surely that would not have been confiscated by the Canadian citizenship mafia as well?

 

Regards

Mark

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[Petrus Potgieter]

I have heard of people being interrogated when entering SA if their passport shows that they were born in Pretoria (or Klerksdorp or something else that is obvious). They sometimes check.

Stephen's real dilemma is very unfortunate and the court ruling was clearly not very fair in this regard and has created a big new problem. I checked the "rununciation" [sic] website

https://dirco.gov.za/uk/rununciation-of-south-african-citizenship/

and it requires a lot of paperword to renounce the citizenship. I can imagine there are a lot of people in Stephen's position.

I do not believe that SA ever required you to relinquish another citizenship when obtaining SA nationality. That is why Mark does not have the problem.

Until I read Stephen's post, I was not acutely aware of the magnitude of this problem. I have believed (and probably still do) that the DA aimed at removing a stipulation which was only ever meant to punish emigrants. However, thrusting citizenship on people who do not want it, is at least as bad as taking it away from people who never read the small print.

The issue is discussed at

https://www.businesslive.co.za/bd/opinion/2025-06-05-claudia-pizzocri-one-size-does-not-fit-all-in-citizenship-ruling/

which confirms that a prison term of 12 months can apply to SA citizens using a foreign passport to enter or leave the country. It is nasty.

[Jim Powell]

I remember a court decision saying that you can hold other citizenships with SA

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[Graeme P]

Wow, that's a fascinating story.

My understanding is slightly different. I've also had some personal experience with this.

South Africa has apparently always allowed citizens to take on other citizenships, but there was a law saying that you needed to get explicit permission from the Minister of Home Affairs in order to do so. However, for decades this law was never enforced and people could take on second citizenships without a problem. 

Then some bright spark in the ANC realized that the expat vote goes against them and that they had the option of retrospectively removing South African citizenship from anybody who had taken on another citizenship without permission. They gleefully exercise this option. 

There were many stories of expats going to the embassy to renew their South African passports and suddenly being told they are no longer South African citizens. 

So, when news of this practice spread, countries like Canada and the UK also started warning people that they needed to get this permission, otherwise their SA citizenship would be revoked. 

Apparently, getting this permission to take on another citizenship was not a difficult thing to do, so most people ended up just doing it. 

I'm actually surprised that you didn't try to get this permission. Surely having two passports is a good thing? You never know what could happen in the socialist republic of Canada 🙂

Honestly, I don't know what possessed the busybodies in Canada to explicitly go and tell the South African government about new Canadian citizens. Canada allows multiple citizenships, so why would they care?

That said, it does seem like you are now in quite a pickle thanks to the DA. I have heard that entering South Africa with a foreign passport when you are still a citizen is actually a criminal offence, though I doubt you would face criminal sanction given this shitshow. 

But I do think there's a fair chance of being detained and delayed at the airport. Certainly, very inconvenient and an opportunity for some enterprising government official to extract a bribe from you.  

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[Graeme P]

Some expats could think of their South African citizenships as Schrödinger citizenships:

The South African government considered them citizens, but only because they didn't know that they had already taken on foreign citizenships. When they disclosed that they had these foreign citizenships, their SA citizenships would be revoked, backdated to the day on which they took on the foreign citizenship. 

On Tue, Jul 22, 2025 at 2:47 PM Graeme P <gra...@graemep.me> wrote:

Wow, that's a fascinating story.

My understanding is slightly different. I've also had some personal experience with this.

South Africa has apparently always allowed citizens to take on other citizenships, but there was a law saying that you needed to get explicit permission from the Minister of Home Affairs in order to do so. However, for decades this law was never enforced and people could take on second citizenships without a problem. 

Then some bright spark in the ANC realized that the expat vote goes against them and that they had the option of retrospectively removing South African citizenship from anybody who had taken on another citizenship without permission. They gleefully exercise this option. 

There were many stories of expats going to the embassy to renew their South African passports and suddenly being told they are no longer South African citizens. 

So, when news of this practice spread, countries like Canada and the UK also started warning people that they needed to get this permission, otherwise their SA citizenship would be revoked. 

Apparently, getting this permission to take on another citizenship was not a difficult thing to do, so most people ended up just doing it. 

I'm actually surprised that you didn't try to get this permission. Surely having two passports is a good thing? You never know what could happen in the socialist republic of Canada 🙂

Honestly, I don't know what possessed the busybodies in Canada to explicitly go and tell the South African government about new Canadian citizens. Canada allows multiple citizenships, so why would they care?

That said, it does seem like you are now in quite a pickle thanks to the DA. I have heard that entering South Africa with a foreign passport when you are still a citizen is actually a criminal offence, though I doubt you would face criminal sanction given this shitshow. 

But I do think there's a fair chance of being detained and delayed at the airport. Certainly, very inconvenient and an opportunity for some enterprising government official to extract a bribe from you.  

On Tue, Jul 22, 2025 at 7:06 AM Stephen vJ <sjaar...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Jim Powell]

Myself and my son went to Germiston Home Affairs and obtained letters of permission to take out European citizenship. Stated that the reason was to make travel easier. Collected permission in 1 week

 

From: indivi...@googlegroups.com [mailto:indivi...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Graeme P
Sent: Tuesday, 22 July 2025 12:48
To: indivi...@googlegroups.com
Cc: li...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: IM: So, the DA banished me from South Africa

 

Wow, that's a fascinating story.

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[Stephen van Jaarsveldt]

Hubris ? Me ? Never ! ;-)

I have asked three recent ones that I know of personally, if I could share their stories. One responded almost right away with "I'd rather stay anonymous and just forget the whole ordeal"... without mentioning names, I can share that they had a child with them who was born in Canada and only had Canadian citizenship. After telling the airport official that they needed to call the Canadian government's emergency hotline for citizens having trouble in another country and commenting on how this was going to cause an incident with Canada, separating a minor Canadian citizen from their parents and leaving them stranded at an airport, the official apparently pretended to speak to a supervisor, then let them go without any explanation of what had suddenly changed. They were just glad to get to their flight.

I'll share the others as I get them.

S.

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[Stephen van Jaarsveldt]

Ron asked the same thing and I responded with one example, admittedly anonymous and not formally vetted, but I asked a few people and will send more as I get them, plus you said "reported" which I assume does not mean published in the Rapport. ;-)

Another of my friends just responded saying they were in SA in April and got questioned at passport control, threatened and then police were called over who cuffed them and put them in an interrogation room. After several hours and paying a R 500 "spot fine", they were let go, but by then they had missed their flight and had to pay for another one which only left the next day so they also ended up spending money on a last minute hotel room.

You said: "SA Passport Control would have no knowledge that you are also an SA Citizen when you present a Canadian passport"... that might have been true until recently, but this snippet from a recent newsletter I got... I'll look for a more formal / reliable source, but this was the closest reference I had just now;

S.

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[Stephen van Jaarsveldt]

Yes, but that's not the problem here. SA citizenship has been thrust upon me without my consent... and since it is illegal for SA citizens (which I wasn't last year, but now am despite my objections) to travel into or out of SA with any passport other than their SA one, I risk a year in jail if I travel to SA on my Canadian passport and I don't have an SA one and cannot easily get one. So I'm effectively banned, at least for the next 24 months or however long it takes to get an ID and passport from far away.

S.

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[Stephen van Jaarsveldt]

Indeed, Graeme. You said: "Apparently, getting this permission to take on another citizenship was not a difficult thing to do, so most people ended up just doing it. I'm actually surprised that you didn't try to get this permission. Surely having two passports is a good thing? You never know what could happen in the socialist republic of Canada". Yes, keeping your SA citizenship is not hard when you still have a valid ID and passport, which most people do just after immigration and often still up to getting Canadian (or whichever) citizenship... but we opted not to at the time and now having it is a huge complication, because getting an ID and passport from over here is near impossible.

We opted not to keep SA citizenship for a number of reasons. One is the fact that I have relatives in Germany, Switserland, New Zealand, Australia, etc... so it is conceivable that we would do some travelling. If a natural disaster hits while you are overseas, the country of which you became a citizen first is the one tasked with your evacuation. So let's say I'm visiting my aunt in Venezuela and there is a catastrophic earthquake. If I have only my Canadian citizenship, then the government of Canada will evacuate me... if I have both SA and Canadian citizenship, then SA will need to do it. Who would you prefer to get you out of a pickle - SA or Canada ? That is just one of many considerations.

P.S. Canada is still in the top 20 most free countries according to the top freedom indexes... as opposed to SA which is now in the bottom half. Canada may not be perfect, but it's still much closer to the top of the list than most other English speaking countries.

S.

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[Graeme P]

I can understand how a border guard might let somebody called Mark Heaton from the UK through without a second thought, but show up with a surname like "Van Jaarsveldt" and claim to hail from Canada and it's an entirely different story 😉

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[mark....@imaginet.co.za]

Thanks for your reply Stephen.

 

I was clearly not aware that things had “hotted up” at Passport Control of late.

 

The Business Day article that Petrus quoted was very enlightening – were you able to open it?

 

https://www.businesslive.co.za/bd/opinion/2025-06-05-claudia-pizzocri-one-size-does-not-fit-all-in-citizenship-ruling/

 

“which confirms that a prison term of 12 months can apply to SA citizens using a foreign passport to enter or leave the country. It is nasty.”

 

 

From: indivi...@googlegroups.com <indivi...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Stephen van Jaarsveldt
Sent: Tuesday, 22 July 2025 16:16
To: indivi...@googlegroups.com
Cc: li...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: IM: So, the DA banished me from South Africa

 

Ron asked the same thing and I responded with one example, admittedly anonymous and not formally vetted, but I asked a few people and will send more as I get them, plus you said "reported" which I assume does not mean published in the Rapport. ;-)

 

Another of my friends just responded saying they were in SA in April and got questioned at passport control, threatened and then police were called over who cuffed them and put them in an interrogation room. After several hours and paying a R 500 "spot fine", they were let go, but by then they had missed their flight and had to pay for another one which only left the next day so they also ended up spending money on a last minute hotel room.

 

You said: "SA Passport Control would have no knowledge that you are also an SA Citizen when you present a Canadian passport"... that might have been true until recently, but this snippet from a recent newsletter I got... I'll look for a more formal / reliable source, but this was the closest reference I had just now;

 

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[Stephen van Jaarsveldt]

Well, no... the problem is the opposite of that. There are people who were and are still convinced they are no longer SA citizens, then find out at passport control that they are... and are being detained or arrested for it.

S.

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[Stephen van Jaarsveldt]

Sure, but Germiston is a brisk trot and a swim from here. It will probably take me about as long to walk to Germiston as the jail sentence for flying through OR Thambo.

For perspective, it's just over 15 000 km from here to Germiston as the crow flies, if the crow could fly that far. Earth is only 18 000 km to the opposite side.

The point is that I don't want SA citizenship. In fact, from 2022 to 2024 I was not an SA citizen... and now I am again, to my great dismay and consternation.

S.

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[Stephen van Jaarsveldt]

Yes, I was able to read it... and it takes a much more positive stance than I think this issue deserves, but does cover the essence of my issue. Specifically: "These individuals made life-altering decisions based on the understanding that they were no longer SA citizens, only to have that foundation removed without their input or consent." and "The Constitutional Court’s ruling deprives affected individuals of agency in a deeply personal matter — their national identity and citizenship status.".

If anyone in the legal profession feels like taking this on and potentially getting the ruling reversed or at least amended, I would enthusiastically support that and will be happy to testify (remotely, obviously) or finding others willing to testify. It has already opened the door to abuse of power, corruption, bribery and otherwise thwarting of the law, deliberately and inadvertently, not to mention the pain and suffering of innocent people... all for the gain of a few votes by some political parties.

S.

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[Stephen van Jaarsveldt]

Thanks for the great story and encouraging words Ron. You know I don't mind sleeping in a cell for a bit and I get along with all sorts, even fellow inmates... if it were only my own discomfort, money and blood, that would be fine... but it's the suffering and abuse of others I can't stand. If it was just me, I'd take the risk and come visit, but I wouldn't do that to my wife and kids. That's the same reason I stuck to the speed limit and paid my taxes - do to me what you like, but I don't want my wife or kids getting pulled over or detained or harassed for something I did. Where they are involved or impacted, it has to be by the book and low risk.

S.

Op Di. 22 Jul. 2025 om 15:26 het Ron Weissenberg <r...@micronized.com> geskryf:

Stephen 🙂🙂

Ya, I had the identical experience to Mark. Born in the US and a permanent resident of SA from age 7 to 18, I was given 21 days to accept SA citizenship, or leave. Ostensibly so that I could uphold white Afrikaner nationalism by fighting against black African Nationalism. 

I should have left SA in the early '80s, waited a few years and bought a few Dollars worth of Microsoft shares.

Then I could scream and shout like Rob Hersov from my upper Constantia mansion.

Often a good scare gets in the way of a boring story. A few months back, a colleague and I departed OR Tambo. He had an expired SA passport and was exiting on his British passport. The passport control officers were reasonably courteous, filled out a form and off we went. We re-entered SA a few days later, showed the form and that was that.

To top it all, Germany sent me a passport too, with a verbal apology for stripping my late parents of their German citizenship in 1941. Never set foot in Germany until late 2023,  when ironically, I encountered a whole lot of brown Germans with Palestinian flags calling for the elimination of other Germans.  

A lot like SA pre and post 1994.

Come visit. All will be well. 

Warm wishes

Ron

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[mark....@imaginet.co.za]

Stephen, I also have to think that your vitriol towards the DA on this matter is a little misplaced.

 

If I understand it correctly, the DA challenged the forced removal of SA citizenship from certain individuals that had acquired foreign citizenship. Under normal circumstances this is a challenge that one would support – fighting an unjust piece of legislation. With the Constitutional Court then declaring that this legislation was indeed unlawful, it did not merely repeal it, it reversed it to the extent that it was considered never to have happened.

 

This necessitated the automatic restoration of citizenship to those who had it removed by legislation now considered null and void.

 

The obvious problem with this – as pointed out by yourself, and this article https://www.businesslive.co.za/bd/opinion/2025-06-05-claudia-pizzocri-one-size-does-not-fit-all-in-citizenship-ruling/ was that not everyone will welcome this automatic restoration, as it may have unintended consequences for them – such as in your case.

 

Should the DA be blamed for your predicament. My thinking is that the thugs in government who passed the original legislation depriving people of dual nationality are the real culprits here.

 

M

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[vlie...@btinternet.com]

Hi Mark,

 

I agree with much of what you have said.  However I think that Business Day is being a little alarmist as there is an alternative solution for ex-Suth Africans who now have another citizenship – if they have members of parliament in their newly adopted country, then write to their MP and ask the foreign office of their new country to summons the South African ambassador to the foreign office and ask the ambassador how South Africa intends handling the many scenarios that this ruling raises. This will put pressure on the SA Government to repeal the legislation in an orderly manner, taking into account any transitional problems that might occur.  It will also put pressure on foreign government to absolve any ex-South Africans from any negative consequences of this unlawful act of the South African Parliament – for example, foreign countries where this might be a problem might well pass their own legislation in conjunction with the South Africans to regularise the situation.

 

Martin

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[Stephen van Jaarsveldt]

Mark, I blame the DA for a number of things here, one of them being the creation of this fallacy that people were "deprived" of their citizenship. That is not true. If you fail to see the expiration date on your drivers license and do not renew it, then once it expires you are not being deprived of your drivers license - you are the one who failed to renew it. If you have a coupon from Pick-n-Pay and you go to the store after the coupon expired and claim you didn't see the expiration date, but they refuse to give you the discount, then you are not being deprived of the coupon value - you are the one who did not adhere to the terms of the coupon.

The same thing happened here - the process is to fill out the additional paperwork to keep your SA citizenship or lose it. It is your responsibility to read the forms and fill out the appropriate ones correctly. If you make the choice (through thought or negligence), then that's on you. There is no legislation saying you will be deprived of your citizenship - there is a process which you have to follow to keep it. This is not even a case of law, but one of procedure. To illustrate this point, imagine the SA government had an online citizenship renunciation form where you could fill out a few fields, upload an image of your foreign citizenship certificate and pay a nominal fee by credit card, then hit Agree and Submit and voila, your citizenship is renounced... if that was possible, we would not be having this conversation.

The DA, in an attempt to get votes, employed lawyers to convince the court that people who were negligent should be favoured at the cost of those who were not and in the process dumped thousands of us into a quagmire of red tape. They undid the choices that most of us made consciously and deprived us of the right to renounce our SA citizenship and keep it renounced. The DA initiated, ran and funded this court case - who else can I possibly blame ? Maybe the idiots who didn't read their immigration paperwork. Maybe the SA government for making things so hard, slow and expensive. Sure, but those things existed before the DA brought this to court, so I'm pointing the finger at the hand which tipped the first domino.

S.

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[vlie...@btinternet.com]

Mark,

 

From my understanding of law, it is up to the government to make laws as it sees fit and f a law is unconstitutional, the Constitutional Court’s only remedy is to strike out the offending part of the law. It is then up to the government (and those affected) to sort out the mess. The same thing applies in contract law – if parts of a contract is illegal, then the courts will strike out the minimum necessary to make the contract legal. If the contract then still make sense, the remnant will be upheld.  For example, I have a model contract which I use in the UK. Somebody in South Africa copies it verbatim for use in South Africa but does not notice that one of the clauses states that “VAT will be added at a rate of 20%” [which is the current rate in the UK, but not in South Africa]. The contract is then challenged in a South African court. The court will strike out the phrase “at a rate of 20%” as what is left makes sense.  The same login applies to Acts of Parliament.

 

Martin

 

From: mark.heaton via Individualist Movement <indivi...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: 23 July 2025 07:08

To view this discussion, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/individualist/000001dbfb98%24211003a0%2463300ae0%24%40imaginet.co.za.

[mark....@imaginet.co.za]

Hi Stephen,

 

This might be of some assistance to you in future …

 

https://www.dha.gov.za/index.php/civic-services/dha-service-centres-abroad

To view this discussion, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/individualist/CAMr06S56%2BszZ_FouB%2B2AUz3GpU3zYMSDeszo8EYPs-AM9pDJxA%40mail.gmail.com.

[Ron Weissenberg]

The interesting part about this thread for me, has been the focus on the nett negative. ‘What bleeds, leads’ the media editor reminds us and there is a lot of literature on how humans are drawn towards negativity, irrational fear and bad news. Alec Hogg of BizNews is proud to remind us that bad news garners 9 times more attention, than good.

 

Rational people (and I think the majority of people in this group consider themselves just that), thrive on inter alia statistics, peer-reviewed analysis and empirical substantiation. But mostly towards the negative, or to disprove a positive goal or outcome. It doesn’t matter if this is a survival strategy (‘rustle in the grass theory’). What matters is that overriding negativity affects quality of life, psyche and relationships. Maybe that’s why I don’t participate much anymore in perpetuating the echo-chamber?

 

Having lived most of my life in Africa and witnessing the evolution of China, India, the USA, countless ‘ism’s and now looking back and even forward, perhaps it is never really as bad or as good as people report it to be?  I think China’s economic progress and overall gains over 35 years are over-optimistic and they are experiencing some incredible problems few of which are reported. Conversely, Javier Milei is a breath of fresh air, but likely to achieve far less than classical liberals seem convinced.

 

We don’t listen through our ears, but through our triggers. I suppose one cannot change a person, or their inherent brain chemistry, DNA, persona etc. The control freak in me dislikes this.  

 

The kids and grandkids will repeat mistakes, be motivated by perceived different outcomes. As they should. It won’t be great and it won’t be catastrophic. Maybe they will be lucky. Life will just be and find a balance as it should.

 

Stephen, come visit SA. I don’t consider it home, but then not do I consider the USA or even Europe. We had some discussions about Canada as a living space a while back. I’m still convinced that being stateless, or at the least, a global citizen is a good space to live in.

 

Take care

Ron

To view this discussion, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/individualist/001901dbfc68%24353a4090%249faec1b0%24%40imaginet.co.za.

[Sid Nothard]

Goes to show that we are all government property

 

Virus-free.www.avast.com

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[Ron Weissenberg]

Stephen 🙂🙂

Ya, I had the identical experience to Mark. Born in the US and a permanent resident of SA from age 7 to 18, I was given 21 days to accept SA citizenship, or leave. Ostensibly so that I could uphold white Afrikaner nationalism by fighting against black African Nationalism. 

I should have left SA in the early '80s, waited a few years and bought a few Dollars worth of Microsoft shares.

Then I could scream and shout like Rob Hersov from my upper Constantia mansion.

Often a good scare gets in the way of a boring story. A few months back, a colleague and I departed OR Tambo. He had an expired SA passport and was exiting on his British passport. The passport control officers were reasonably courteous, filled out a form and off we went. We re-entered SA a few days later, showed the form and that was that.

To top it all, Germany sent me a passport too, with a verbal apology for stripping my late parents of their German citizenship in 1941. Never set foot in Germany until late 2023,  when ironically, I encountered a whole lot of brown Germans with Palestinian flags calling for the elimination of other Germans.  

A lot like SA pre and post 1994.

Come visit. All will be well. 

Warm wishes

Ron

On 22 Jul 2025 11:19, "mark.heaton via Individualist Movement" <indivi...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Stephen, this sentence is simply not true, and I challenge you to find one reported case of this happening …

 

" Since this horrific court ruling, I have heard of several people threatened, delayed and detained by SA passport control for trying to enter or leave SA with a Canadian passport, because of an SA citizenship many of them didn't even know they had.'

 

SA Passport Control would have no knowledge that you are also an SA Citizen when you present a Canadian passport, so it would be extremely unlikely they would be able to “threaten, delay, or detain” someone.

 

I hold dual UK / South African Citizenship. I was not forced to relinquish either. I was however forcibly given SA Citizenship back in 1984, so I could have the pleasure of serving in the SADF. I have travelled on my UK passport in and out of SA when my SA passport had expired. The only issue I had was that on returning to SA, I had to prove I was an SA citizen and had residence in SA, as I wasn’t departing within 30 days – which I did using my SA ID Book.

 

Why do you not have your birth certificate? Surely that would not have been confiscated by the Canadian citizenship mafia as well?

 

Regards

Mark

 

From: indivi...@googlegroups.com <indivi...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Ron Weissenberg

Sent: Tuesday, 22 July 2025 10:04
To: indivi...@googlegroups.com; li...@googlegroups.com

Subject: RE: IM: So, the DA banished me from South Africa

 

Hi Stephen,

 

I seldom respond to the posts, except if they are full of emotion and/or hubris. Like yours 😊

 

Stephen, I am fascinated to know more details, people, can I verify/talk with them, on?:

 

" Since this horrific court ruling, I have heard of several people threatened, delayed and detained by SA passport control for trying to enter or leave SA with a Canadian passport, because of an SA citizenship many of them didn't even know they had.'

 

Much obliged,

Ron

 

-----Original Message-----
From: indivi...@googlegroups.com <indivi...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Stephen vJ
Sent: Tuesday, 22 July 2025 05:33
To: li...@googlegroups.com; indivi...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: IM: So, the DA banished me from South Africa

 

Oh, I forgot to add... it's not just travel - there are several other problems which I won't go into now... but why would the DA do this ? Well, they know that the proportion of immigrants who tend to vote for them is higher than those inside SA... and if you lose your citizenship, you can't vote. So they screwed us all to get a few immigrant's votes. Sies !

 

Stephen.

 

On Jul 21, 2025, at 21:06, Stephen vJ <sjaar...@gmail.com> wrote:

 

I've never been a fan of the DA and their latest stunt completely sealed my dislike of this diabolical political party. If any of you were hoping to ever see me again, the DA recently ensured that, unless you're coming over here, that will never happen. I have been banished from South Africa and will never return, even for a visit. Not that I was planning to (or could afford it) anyway, but now even if I had the money and opportunity, I can't. Thanks to the DA.

 

It no longer matters that you have the time and money, if you don't have the correct status. The market no longer matters when, how and to where we want to go. In international travel, the commies have won.

 

In case you missed it, here's what happened. Some countries are fine with dual or multiple citizenship... SA is not one of them and neither is Canada. In the past, if you got citizenship of a country like Canada, your SA citizenship would automatically be revoked, unless you specifically applied to SA and Canada to retain it and assuming you had a good reason for keeping both. The default was to lose one when you got the other.

 

In the case of Canadian citizenship, this is automatic - when you get Canadian citizenship, Canada informs SA and your SA citizenship goes poof. In the case of Germany, they don't - you have to prove to the German government that you've renounced your SA citizenship first, before you can get German citizenship. Every country has it's own process, but in most cases it is very clear and an obvious part of the process.

 

Immigration involves a LOT of paperwork and you have to read and fill all of it carefully, otherwise it's going to get very slow, expensive and frustrating very quickly... so, I must have read at least 15 times that I would be losing my SA citizenship as soon as I got my Canadian citizenship. I don't see how you can successfully immigrate and still miss that... but apparently many people do. Obviously they are the ones who were not paying attention.

 

Anyway, a bunch of illiterate, dumbass, dyslexic or otherwise linguistically challenged immigrants missed this fact and then, for some reason not within the known universe, were shocked, surprised and disappointed at finding later that they were no longer SA citizens.

 

One could argue that, had SA citizenship really been that important to them, that they should maybe not have applied for citizenship of another country... but who knows what goes on in other people's skull cavities ? I understand some of them found out when they tried to vote... in an election of a country they have not lived in for years.

 

So the DA took up this "cause" and got the SA court to declare this long-standing practice unconstitutional... and the court decided that those "lost" citizenships should be re-instated... and, worst of all, back-dated to 1995 ! So now about 700 000 people suddenly have a citizenship they didn't want and many don't know yet they have. The DA and a few immigrants in the UK celebrated this "win" but everyone I've spoken to see this as something between a nuisance and a disaster. It's fine if this applied only to those who wanted it, but no, they imposed it on everyone.

 

One problem is that SA requires that citizens travel on SA passports i.e. it is illegal to enter or exit SA on a Canadian passport if you hold an SA citizenship. My SA passport expired in 2021 and my ID was chopped up by Canadian Registry when I got my Canadian drivers license in 2018, since it is illegal in Canada to have a foreign drivers license and a local one... since page 4 of the green SA barcode ID book had "Drivers license" at the top, they took that too. So I have no SA passport or ID anymore... and didn't care, since I have a Canadian passport and ID.

 

Enter the DA. Now I have SA citizenship again, it means I cannot travel to SA on my Canadian passport anymore. In order to renounce your SA citizenship, you have to submit your SA passport and ID, which I no longe have. To get an SA passport, you need an SA ID, which I no longer have. To get an ID, you need a birth certificate, which I no longer have... and to get a replacement, you need an ID or copies of your parent's ID's... and since my parents also immigrated, they no longer have.

 

That's assuming you can get this all done from outside the country. Go to the nearest consulate ? I'm in Canada. The nearest SA consulate or embassy is 3473km away. Imagine driving from Jozi to Capetown 3 times just to hear "sorry sir, the system is down, come back next week". All that to get a birth certificate so I can wait 18 months, then do it again to get an ID so I can wait 18 months and do it again to get a passport and wait 18 months so I can complete the forms with which to renounce my citizenship ? Nope. That's not happening.

 

Since this horrific court ruling, I have heard of several people threatened, delayed and detained by SA passport control for trying to enter or leave SA with a Canadian passport, because of an SA citizenship many of them didn't even know they had. I'm not taking that risk, so I guess that's goodbye and farewell. Thanks DA. One country I can never visit again, by no fault of my own... 286 to go.

 

Stephen.

 

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[Stephen van Jaarsveldt]

Exactly. Complete with little name tags and pass books, like compliant little sheep.

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[Stephen van Jaarsveldt]

I agree in principle Ron and I like quoting Stephen Pinker when people get overly negative about the state of the world, in particular this video: https://youtu.be/yCm9Ng0bbEQ. That said, I got very negative in this case because it is something that affects me personally and has some relevance to these groups w.r.t. human rights and government power. This particular case is certainly not a reflection of the state of the world in general.

You also reminded me that, when I was 6 years old my mother accidentally crossed the border between Sweden and Finland with me and my sister in the car, because there was absolutely no indication of where the border was. On the way back we got ourselves certificates stating that we had crossed the arctic circle, also a completely invisible line. I still recall the distinct impression I got on the way back that countries are bullshit.

As you say, South Africa is not my home and neither is Canada or Sweden or anywhere else. Home is dinner with you guys at Fratelli's or my desk at Calgary Co-op or this house I just moved into. So my rant below is not about citizenship or rights as much as arbitrary power impacting on the lives and freedom of individuals. To me, this case is another example of why countries are bogus and governments undesirable evils.

S.

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[Stephen van Jaarsveldt]

That's an interesting question and I hope Garth is still on one of these groups, because I believe he has some fascinating insights from research into the relationship between intelligence and income, if I recall correctly. Maybe he can share some of that here.

Personally, I'm not the smartest person around but hope that I'm still somewhat above the average and I think I'm doing ok-ish income wise... so I hope I didn't create the impression that I'm smart and broke. When I said "or could afford it" what I left out was the fact that I'm still recovering from the immense cost of immigrating, have a daughter at university, support two people with ADHD and autism and live in a country with some of the most expensive housing markets in the world. Add to that the fact that only about 20% of airfare goes towards the actual flying - the rest is fees, taxes, levies and whatnot - making flying extremely expensive. So when I say "or could afford it" that is not a reflection on my financial situation, but rather the cost of travel relative to my particular situation. ;-)

S.

Op Do. 24 Jul. 2025 om 02:34 het Maria D'Amico <m...@damico.co.za> geskryf:

Hi Stephen

 

As you will have noted, I do not engage on this group. However, something in your first post on this subject intrigued me. This curiosity has nothing to do with your path of “the DA banished me from South Africa” .

 

You made a simple statement: or could afford it.

 

Caveat: this is a general statement and will not apply to everyone.

 

Why is it that some people of presumably high intelligence (and yes that word may have many meanings but let us not get side tracked) have a poverty existence and outlook on life:

 

1. Does a person of high intelligence generally have a poverty mindset; or

 

2. Does a person of high intelligence not care about money which leads to one of lack; or

 

3. Are their minds so powerful that if they think of poverty or lack, they then create this reality to accord with their mind set.

 

I have not read the exchange of emails that followed on your first post, so I am not sure if this was raised there.

 

Thanks,

 

Maria

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[Stephen van Jaarsveldt]

I haven't looked at flights in a while... I just had a quick look and almost swallowed my tongue. I see 2 flights departing at ungodly hours for $ 2 270 (R 30 000), the rest are all around $ 4 150 (R 53 600)... that's for economy return for 1 adult with no add-ons or extras. I don't know what that says about my financial situation, but that's definitely not in my current budget.

S.