Sida FOR ID :: Banasura Sagar Dam, Wayanad :: 15 NOV 19

[Dinesh Valke]

Banasura Sagar Dam  Wayanad Date: November 15, 2019 ... Altitude: about 980 m (3,200 ft) asl

Sida ¿ species ?   Dear friends, This does not look like cordata or cordifolia ... OR may be I am wrong with my earlier collection. Please help ID, if these photos help.

Regards. Dinesh

[ushadi]

may be Sida rhombifolia?

Regards

Ushadi

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[Dinesh Valke]

May be you are right Usha di.

I think then it must be some variety of rhombifolia.

Will check later.

Regards.

Dinesh

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[ushadi]

yes, i am sure an ardent taxonomist will know

Regards

Ushadi

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[dr.rakesh Singh]

What about Turnera ulmifolia ? 

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[Dinesh Valke]

No Rakesh ji, for certain, not Turnera ulmifolia... the flower is fan petal - Sida sp.

Regards.

Dinesh

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[dr.rakesh Singh]

Dinesh sir , in that case , please check for Sida rawii . It is a new species described from TN , looks similar to Sida acuta , differing in a long pedicel . 

When I get on laptop , I shall be able to zoom in your images and compare with the paper . 

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[dr.rakesh Singh]

Here is the paper 

https://threatenedtaxa.org/index.php/JoTT/article/view/2238/3356

Sorry for wrong spelling . It is Sida ravii . 

[Dinesh Valke]

Rakesh ji, somehow I feel, my posted plant is not Sida ravii. My plant has large flower when compared to leaves.

The herbarium shows small leaves and small flower.

I may be wrong in interpreting.

Let us wait for more comments.

Regards.

Dinesh

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[dr.rakesh Singh]

Currently , I am seeing your post , Dinesh sir , on laptop ....and I appreciate calyx much better , with pedicel ...a long one , unlike Sida acuta , petiole short , leaf rhomboid , bunching of buds at branch tip , flower really large for a sida ( third image ), and the plant pretty tall ..(.last image )

Based on long pedicel and leaf resemblance to Sida acuta , I had suggested Sida ravii . 

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[Dinesh Valke]

Thanks very much Rakesh ji for taking time to analyse.

My mistake - I did not put approximate dimensions.

The flower size is relatively larger than those of Sida rhombifolia / Sida acuta - approx 2 to 2.5 cm across.

The height of plant is about 1.5 metre or a little higher.

Most of the leaves of posted plant are rhomboid (wider than the usual) than what is described for ravii as ovate-lanceolate / oblong-elliptic / lanceolate. The herbarium does not show any leaf "wide" as we see in our posted plant. That makes me not think of ravii.

The herbarium is not show any flower. I think there are only buds.

Nor does the illustration show flower in the branch that shows leaves and buds.

Another observation related to my plant is the crowding of leaves at the apex, almost in a whorl, which is not seen in the illustration / herbarium.

I hope I am not mistaking.

Regards.

Dinesh

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[J.M. Garg]

Forwarding again for Id assistance please.

To me also looks different from Sida rhombifolia subsp. rhombifolia and other species available at Sida

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[dr.rakesh Singh]

I have thought and looked for possibilities in  Melhania , Herissantia and Wissadula too . 

May be we are looking at something unrecorded yet , or recorded and forgotten ! 

[J.M. Garg]

Forwarding again for Id assistance please.

To me also looks different from Sida rhombifolia subsp. rhombifolia and other species available at Sida

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Dinesh Valke <dinesh...@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 at 15:19
Subject: [efloraofindia:336764] Sida FOR ID :: Banasura Sagar Dam, Wayanad :: 15 NOV 19
To: efloraofindia <indian...@googlegroups.com>

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[J.M. Garg]

Forwarding again for Id assistance please.

To me also looks different from Sida rhombifolia subsp. rhombifolia and other species available at Sida

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Dinesh Valke <dinesh...@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 at 15:19
Subject: [efloraofindia:336764] Sida FOR ID :: Banasura Sagar Dam, Wayanad :: 15 NOV 19
To: efloraofindia <indian...@googlegroups.com>

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[J.M. Garg]

Thanks, Sasidharan ji.

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: nanu sasidharan
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2020 at 13:56
Subject: Re: [efloraofindia:336764] Sida FOR ID :: Banasura Sagar Dam, Wayanad :: 15 NOV 19
To: J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com>

Sida scabrida

Sasidharan

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Dr. N. Sasidharan 

(Retd. Chief Scientist, KFRI, Peechi)

Medinilla, Bhagirathi Nagar

Ollukkara PO, Thrissur 680 655

Kerala, INDIA

mob. +91 9496123488

[J.M. Garg]

Hi, Dinesh ji and Rakesh ji,

I was mentioning this under Subspecies of Sida rhombifolia

Pl. check further.

[Dinesh Valke]

Thanks Garg ji and Sasidharan ji for the ID !!

I checked at Flora of Peninsular India.

It looks like the species is endemic to Kerala state.

And the page gives reference to Literature : Sasidharan, N. 2011. Flowering plants of Kerala. DVD, V2, KFRI.

Thank you very much Sasidharan ji.

Regards,

Dinesh

[Dinesh Valke]

Only one question that follows is :

Sida scabrida Wight & Arn.
OR
Sida rhombifolia var. scabrida (Wight & Arn.) Mast. as per Catalog of Life

Regards.

Dinesh

[J.M. Garg]

I think better to follow Sida rhombifolia var. scabrida (Wight & Arn.) Mast. as per Catalogue of Life and Monograph of S.India Malvaceae.

[Dinesh Valke]

Thanks very much Garg ji; I too thought of same name.

Regards.

Dinesh

[dr.rakesh Singh]

https://www.academia.edu/28316139/A_Synopsis_of_the_genus_Sida_L._Malvaceae_from_Maharashtra_India?fbclid=IwAR2T-iscywk68QdUdVpsxK642hOTDH9BL0YRjvFhdixrKtNe1wTO3PAM9Gk  

This paper provides a very different image for Sida scabrida . Dinesh sir can relook into his raw images and tell us whether pedicel is jointed or non-jointed . 

[J.M. Garg]

Thanks, Rakesh ji. 

Hi, Dinesh ji
Pl. also go through the Monograph. 

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With regards,
J. M. Garg

[Dinesh Valke]

Thanks Rakesh ji and Garg ji.

I will go through your links tomorrow evening.

Regards.

Dinesh

[dr.rakesh Singh]

Please also see this 

http://keralaplants.in/keralaplantsdetails.aspx?id=Sida_scabrida 

Measurements do not match up .  

[Dinesh Valke]

Rakesh ji, I glanced through the document A_Synopsis_of_the_genus_Sida_L._Malvaceae at your given link

It gives a key that differentiates scabrida from rhombifolia. ... scabrida has concolorus leaves and not jointed pedicels.

I am attaching a cropped picture - hope above characters can be made out in the cropped picture.

Rakesh ji, at Kerala Plants, I found almost all the measurements. Do you find any particular not matching ?

Leaves 6-8 x 4 cm, rhomboid, acuminate at apex, rounded at base, coarsely serrate on upper half; petiole 8 mm long,; stipule 8 mm long, filiform.
Flowers axillary ... calyx 7 mm across, lobes triangular, acute (deduced from the buds that are seen); corolla 15 mm across.
Flowering & Fruiting: September-January

Garg ji, I was not able to find monograph.

In all, posted plant must be Sida rhombifolia var. scabrida.

Regards.

Dinesh

[dr.rakesh Singh]

Yes , sir . 

Pedicel is given as 8 mm , which is certainly longer looking in your photo .

Suppose pedicel in your image , Dinesh sir , is 8 mm then where that leaves the corolla (15 mm) and Leaf (6-8 cm X 4 cm) ? 

What I see in your images is longer pedicel , longer than petiole plus leaf more or less looking like S. acuta . . . for these two features , I had suggested S. ravii . 

[Dinesh Valke]

Thanks Rakesh ji. The pedicel is indeed extra-long. Other aspects may be near about agreeing to the described dimensions.

The leaves, most of them are as wide as long - almost rhomboid - I do not see it as likeness of S. acuta,

I remember I found my posted plant not matching herbaria of S. ravii.

But I will not deliberate on any species, because I know less of this genus and its species in the south.

Personally, I think it is some subspecies of Sida rhombifolia.

Regards.

Dinesh

[dr.rakesh Singh]

We should leave it at Sida for now , I suggest . 

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[dr.rakesh Singh]

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/264784792_Sida_unicornis_Marais_Malvaceae-A_new_record_for_India

[Dinesh Valke]

Thanks Rakesh ji.

Leaves 2-7 x 0.5-2 cm.

Above dimensions of Sida unicornis not fitting to the posted plant.

Regards.

Dinesh

[J.M. Garg]

Dinesh ji,

Pl. see Malvaceae of Southern Peninsular India: A Taxonomic Monograph By V. V. Sivarajan, A. K. Pradeep (1996- Details) 

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[Dinesh Valke]

Thanks Garg ji.

The monograph did not help my understanding much. It states subtle differences between scabrida and rhombifolia.

For now, I see it as Sida rhombifolia subsp. scabrida OR just keep it as Sida sp.

Regards.

Dinesh

[J.M. Garg]

I will go with Sida rhombifolia subsp. scabrida as per Malvaceae of Southern Peninsular India: A Taxonomic Monograph By V. V. Sivarajan, A. K. Pradeep (1996- Details).

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[Dinesh Valke]

Thank you very much Garg ji for arriving to the ID.

Regards.

Dinesh

[J.M. Garg]

Also matches with high resolution specimen from India at GBIF.

[Dinesh Valke]

Thanks very much Garg ji for further validating the ID.

Regards.

Dinesh