SK110SEP21-2016:ID

[Saroj Kasaju]

Dear Members ,

Sharing some pictures for ID shot on the way to Khardung La on 21 August 2014 at 12000 ft.

Thank you.

Saroj Kasaju

[J.M. Garg]

Forwarding again for Id assistance please.

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With regards,
J.M.Garg

'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna'

Winner of Wipro-NFS Sparrow Awards 2014 for efloraofindia. 

For identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian Flora, please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group (largest in the world- around 2700 members & 2,40,000 messages on 31.3.16) or Efloraofindia website (with a species database of more than 11,000 species & 2,20,000 images).

The whole world uses my Image Resource of more than a thousand species & eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies, Plants etc. (arranged alphabetically & place-wise). You can also use them for free as per Creative Commons license attached with each image.

Also author of 'A Photoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds of India'.

[J.M. Garg]

Thanks, Chadwell ji.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: C CHADWELL
Date: 24 September 2016 at 00:43
Subject: Re: Fwd: [efloraofindia:251806] SK110SEP21-2016:ID
To: "J.M. Garg" <jmg...@gmail.com>

A number of nomenclatural and taxonomic changes have taken place with

this plant.

There are two species to consider, although 'Flowers of the Himalaya' incorrectly

say only 1 (they used the genus Chrysanthemum).

Stewart lists Chrysanthemum pyrethroides as very common in the dry inner mountains.

He also listed C.griffithii. 

At one point these species were included within the genus Pyrethrum (Stewart lists these

names as synonyms).

He observes about Chrysanthemum  and Tanacetum, "The specialists differ so much in their

treatment of this assemblage of plants that in making a check-list it is difficult to know who to follow.

Rechinger places Pyrethrum and Tanacetum under Chrysanthemum. Kitamura does the same.

Hooker placed the pretty rayed types in Chrysanthemum and the disciform headed plants with small

flowers., usually corymbose, he placed in Tanacetum.  Clapham says that Tanacetum differs in the

apparent absence of ray florets, the marginal female florets having ligules so short they appear +/- tubular

like hermaphrodite central florets"......

I am no specialist not taxonomist!  I really how troublesome and confusing all these changes are for most people.

Anyhow, Dickore & Klimes, included these species under Tanacetum - they have 7 other species, which look

very different to these!

So can we readily tell these two species apart?   It is complicated by, as Stewart says, there is a great

difference in the amount of pubescence in  Tanacetum pyrethroides (which he knew as C.pyrethroides) -

some being sub-glabrous, others white hoary.

For the present, I am uncertain how to distinguish between T.pyrethroides and T.griffithii but think your plant

must surely be one of these.

Best Wishes,

Chris Chadwell

81 Parlaunt Road 
SLOUGH
SL3 8BE
UK

http://www.shpa.org.uk/

---

From: J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com>
To: efloraofindia <indiantreepix@googlegroups.com>
Cc: Saroj Kasaju <kasaj...@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, 23 September 2016, 9:11
Subject: Fwd: [efloraofindia:251806] SK110SEP21-2016:ID

Forwarding again for Id assistance please.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Saroj Kasaju <kasaj...@gmail.com>
Date: 21 September 2016 at 18:09
Subject: [efloraofindia:251806] SK110SEP21-2016:ID
To: efloraofindia <indiantreepix@googlegroups.com>, "J.M. Garg" <jmg...@gmail.com>

Dear Members ,

Sharing some pictures for ID shot on the way to Khardung La on 21 August 2014 at 12000 ft.

Thank you.

Saroj Kasaju

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For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

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With regards,
J.M.Garg

'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna'

Winner of Wipro-NFS Sparrow Awards 2014 for efloraofindia. 

For identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian Flora, please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group (largest in the world- around 2700 members & 2,40,000 messages on 31.3.16) or Efloraofindia website (with a species database of more than 11,000 species & 2,20,000 images).

The whole world uses my Image Resource of more than a thousand species & eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies, Plants etc. (arranged alphabetically & place-wise). You can also use them for free as per Creative Commons license attached with each image.

Also author of 'A Photoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds of India'.

[J.M. Garg]

Thanks, Chadwell ji, for in depth views.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: C CHADWELL
Date: 24 September 2016 at 11:24
Subject: Re: Fwd: Fwd: [efloraofindia:251806] SK110SEP21-2016:ID
To: "J.M. Garg" <jmg...@gmail.com>

Forgot to mention that just to complicate things further, the genus Richteria is

also applied to these plants.

Yoshioka in 'Himalayan Plants Illustrated' uses Richteria pyrethroides (syn.

Chrysanthemum pyrethroides).

What a game!  And so muddling for many..... 

Best Wishes,

Chris Chadwell

81 Parlaunt Road 
SLOUGH
SL3 8BE
UK

http://www.shpa.org.uk/

---

From: J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com>
To: efloraofindia <indiantreepix@googlegroups.com>
Cc: Saroj Kasaju <kasaj...@gmail.com>

Sent: Saturday, 24 September 2016, 4:30
Subject: Fwd: Fwd: [efloraofindia:251806] SK110SEP21-2016:ID

Thanks, Chadwell ji.

To: efloraofindia <mailto:indiantreepix@googlegroups.com>

[J.M. Garg]

Thanks, Chadwell ji,

With great difficulty I could find two images of Spathipappus griffithii (C.B.Clarke) Tzvelev synonym of Tanacetum griffithii (C.B.Clarke) Muradyan as below:

http://www.plantarium.ru/page/image/id/118613.html

http://www.plantarium.ru/page/image/id/118711.html

Pl. have a look.

Images of Pyrethrum pyrethroides are a bit common on net. Pl. have a look at the following links:

http://www.plantarium.ru/page/image/id/150914.html

http://www.holubec.wbs.cz/10-2013-Kazakhstan-Kyrgyzstan.html

http://www.track.kz/flora.htm

In view I am leaning more towards Tanacetum griffithii (C.B.Clarke) Muradyan 

On 24 September 2016 at 12:10, J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks, Chadwell ji, for in depth views.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: C CHADWELL

Date: 24 September 2016 at 11:24
Subject: Re: Fwd: Fwd: [efloraofindia:251806] SK110SEP21-2016:ID
To: "J.M. Garg" <jmg...@gmail.com>

Forgot to mention that just to complicate things further, the genus Richteria is

also applied to these plants.

Yoshioka in 'Himalayan Plants Illustrated' uses Richteria pyrethroides (syn.

Chrysanthemum pyrethroides).

What a game!  And so muddling for many..... 

Best Wishes,

Chris Chadwell

81 Parlaunt Road 
SLOUGH
SL3 8BE
UK

http://www.shpa.org.uk/

---

From: J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com>

To: efloraofindia <indian...@googlegroups.com>
Cc: Saroj Kasaju <kasaj...@gmail.com>

Thanks, Chadwell ji.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to mailto:indiantreepix+unsubscrib...@googlegroups.com.

[J.M. Garg]

Thanks a lot, Chadwell ji.

It is so nice of you to devote so much of energy despite your health problems.

I hope others also have a re-look at their already identified images & come up with their views in the matter to solve this mystery.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: C CHADWELL <chrischa...@btinternet.com>
Date: 26 September 2016 at 17:46
Subject: Re: Fwd: Fwd: [efloraofindia:251806] SK110SEP21-2016:ID
To: "J.M. Garg" <jmg...@gmail.com>

Thanks for sending these - you are so much better than me at tracking these images/links down.

We can all contribute in different ways.  So encouraging for me to have input from others - working

alone (i.e. not at an institution/botanic garden) has its downsides.  In the past I visited the Natural

History Museum in London's herbarium quite a number of times.  Arthur Chater, co-author of

'Enumeration of the Flowering Plants of Nepal' was so welcoming and helpful - the herbarium collections

for much of the Himalaya are better/different to the material at Kew.

So useful to compare images but we must always be cautious.  Just because something has been named

as such on an internet site does not mean it can be relied upon.  Mistakes can and often are made.

Same applies to traditional printed illustrations/plant guides.  I have even spotted a few within

'Flowers of the Himalaya'.   One of the sites has some glaring mistakes - like a Primula labelled as a Myosotis!

It is so helpful for me to have had a copy of Stewart's 'Annotated Catalogue of the Vascular Plants

of Pakistan & Kashmir' to-hand (indeed Stewart's final copy with his handwritten annotations to it) -

though did involve visiting him in California!  I also, through his student at Gordon College, who went on to be

Professor Nasir got copies of some of the early family revisions of 'Flora of Pakistan' - which are better

than what is available through eflora of Pakistan - the revisions/treatments inevitably vary in quality/reliability.

Stewart, whilst not a professional taxonomist, generally commented intelligently and wisely, so his thoughts can

almost always be relied upon.  As you rightly say, we are all fallible.....

And with the work of Dickore and Klimes (what a loss to the study of Ladakh flora) providing a more up-to-date

checklists -though as you know as soon as anything is completed, it is out-of-date.  But makes a difference having

trustworthy references, rather than checklists missing a significant proportion of species present and littered with

errors.

Though having sufficient knowledge/expertise to assess what works can be relied upon, is not accumulated quickly.

It also helps to have input from those who are more particular/able at proof-reading and checking the fine detail,

as I am prone to typing and other errors.  I think my strengths lie in an overall flora preparation, whilst others are

more suited/skilled at the fine-detail of taxonomic revisions.

Returning to the griffithii/pyrethroides matter.  I think there has been a mix-up in the past.  IF the determination

of the images from Tajikistan is correct (and those of Pyrethrum pyrethroides), then certainly the images taken

on the way to Khardung La (unfortunately I have misplaced these and cannot trace them quickly) - and several other images I have from other sources, also within 'Flowers of the Himalaya',

'Himalayan Plants Illustrated' plus the FOI site, may be T.griffithii not T.pyrethroides  - which fits in with what you are thinking.  

 Though as Stewart says of C.pyrethroides

"there is a great deal of difference in the amount of pubescence in this taxon, some are subglabrous while others are white hoary".

Both Stewart and Dickore/Klimes list both species.  It would be interesting to know what Dickore thinks - and have a specialist

look into the matter.

It would be amusing if T.griffithii turns out to be "very common in the dry inner mountains", rather than T.pyrethroides - which I

may yet to have seen images of in Ladakh?

I am feeling tired mentally again (and in much pain) so must take another break - so tiresome to have these health problems....

Best Wishes,

Chris Chadwell

81 Parlaunt Road 
SLOUGH
SL3 8BE
UK

http://www.shpa.org.uk/

---

From: J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com>

To: efloraofindia <indiantreepix@googlegroups.com>
Cc: Saroj Kasaju <kasaj...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, 26 September 2016, 12:02

Thanks, Chadwell ji.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to mailto:indiantreepix+unsub...@googlegroups.com.

[Saroj Kasaju]

Dear Mr. Garg/ Mr. Chadwell,

Finally we take it as  Tanacetum griffithii (C.B.Clarke) Muradyan .

Thank you.

Saroj Kasaju

[J.M. Garg]

Thanks, Chris ji, for all this research.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: "C CHADWELL" <chrischa...@btinternet.com>
Date: 26 Sep 2016 23:24
Subject: Fw: Fwd: Fwd: [efloraofindia:251806] SK110SEP21-2016:ID
To: "J.M. Garg" <jmg...@gmail.com>

Cc:

Dear Mr Garg

I came across Dr Singh's suggestion of Tanacetum stoliczkae (.B.Clarke) R.Khan.

See: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/indiantreepix/ljktVm__5TE.

At that time it was decided the photos were of C.pyrethroides.

This is an accepted name which gives a link to two pressed specimens at Kew - both of which have handwritten

comments by C.B.Clarke saying he had made mistakes identification-wise, which

"got past" Hooker and thus presumably into 'Flora of British India'.  Note spelling at that time of C.stoliczkai Clarke

Clarke comments about misidentifying the specimen collected at Kargil ; the other location marked on the first specimen

is Patseo, Lahoul.

I have taken a look at Hooker's FBI - he includes only two 'species' but remarks on similarity between C.stoliczkai and C.griffithii.

see: http://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/item/13816#page/318/mode/1up

and http://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/item/13816#page/319/mode/1up

Khan's name comes after Stewart's Catalogue but Stewart does not include C.stoliczkai Clarke only C,stoliczkai Hk.f. (non Clarke)

as a synonym for C.griffithii.

There are links to:

http://www.planetefleurs.fr/Systematique/Asteraceae/Tanacetum_stoliczkae.htm

This has been determined by Dickore

http://www.planetefleurs.fr/Systematique/Asteraceae/Tanacetum_pyrethroides.html

So how do these relate to T.griffithii?

The Plant List for Tanacetum does not have T.griffithii but does have T.richterioides

see: http://www.theplantlist.org/tpl/record/gcc-125471 but gives no synonyms nor pressed specimens at Kew but

when one searches for Kew specimens, often out-of-date names are used, especially for 19th century specimens,

so unless one knows the synonyms, they can be missed.

I had missed that Dickore & Klimes have T.stoliczkae in their check-list for Ladakh - so we now have

'species' to consider or perhaps 'taxa' would be more accurate.

I have just seen that Klimes found T.stolickae on stony slopes, among boulders, scree in one part of what he describes

as Lower laadkh. saying it is endemic to the Indus valley of Ladakh and closely related to T.baltistanicum Podlech (syn. T.gilgitii R.Khan) from Gilgit, Hunza and Baltistan.  This means he Dickore does not accept the specimen from Patseo is T.stoliczkae.

Tanacetum baltistanicum does not appear to be an accepted name on 'The Plant List' - nor T.gilgitii.....

Oh dear, it gets worse!!  No mention of  how to separate T.stolickae from T.grifithii.....

May be impossible to sort out this muddle without being able to examine pressed specimens of collections closely.

That is more than enough for the moment - so much for trying to help sort things out....

  

Best Wishes,

Chris Chadwell

81 Parlaunt Road 
SLOUGH
SL3 8BE
UK

http://www.shpa.org.uk/

----- Forwarded Message -----
From: J.M. Garg <jmg...@gmail.com>
To: efloraofindia <indiantreepix@googlegroups.com>
Cc: Saroj Kasaju <kasaj...@gmail.com>

Sent: Monday, 26 September 2016, 12:02

Thanks, Chadwell ji.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to mailto:indiantreepix+unsub...@googlegroups.com.

[J.M. Garg]

GBIF gives Type specimen links of Pyrethrum pyrethroides (Kar. & Kir.) B.Fedtsch. ex Krasch. (syn:Chrysanthemum artemisiifolium Klatt; Chrysanthemum pyrethroides (Kar. & Kir.) B.Fedtsch.; Chrysanthemum richteria Benth. ; Chrysanthemum richteria Benth. ex Hook.f. ; Pyrethrum pyrethroides (Kar. & Kir.) B.Fedtsch.; Richteria pyrethroides Kar. & Kir.; Tanacetum pyrethroides (Kar. & Kir.) Muradyan; Tanacetum pyrethroides (Kar. & Kir.) Muradyan; Tanacetum pyrethroides (Kar. & Kir.) Sch.Bip.) as below:

Link 1 (Chrysanthemum artemisiifolium Klatt)

Link 2 (Richteria pyrethroides Kar. & Kir.)                 

If we go by the type specimen at Gbif our posted plant is Pyrethrum pyrethroides (Kar. & Kir.) B.Fedtsch. ex Krasch.

Cc:

Thanks, Chadwell ji.

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[Saroj Kasaju]

Difficult for me !

[Saroj Kasaju]

Accepted name is:  Richteria pyrethroides Kar. & Kir. 

Thank you

Saroj Kasaju

Difficult for me !

Cc:

To: efloraofindia <mailto:indian...@googlegroups.com>
Cc: Saroj Kasaju <kasaj...@gmail.com>

Thanks, Chadwell ji.

To: efloraofindia <mailto:indian...@googlegroups.com>
Cc: Saroj Kasaju <kasaj...@gmail.com>

Sent: Friday, 23 September 2016, 9:11
Subject: Fwd: [efloraofindia:251806] SK110SEP21-2016:ID

Forwarding again for Id assistance please.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Saroj Kasaju <kasaj...@gmail.com>
Date: 21 September 2016 at 18:09
Subject: [efloraofindia:251806] SK110SEP21-2016:ID

To: efloraofindia <mailto:indian...@googlegroups.com>, "J.M. Garg" <jmg...@gmail.com>

Dear Members ,

Sharing some pictures for ID shot on the way to Khardung La on 21 August 2014 at 12000 ft.

Thank you.

Saroj Kasaju

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