Id of Flower - ID 26112019SH1

[Shobha Halwe-Chavda]

Dear Friends,

Flower for id pl.Local people call this 'पदम’ tree.

Location - Chopta ( Uttarakhand)
Date - November 2019

Regards,

Shobha Chavda

[ushadi]

not knowin pdma tree

i searched

found it after half an hour

padma search term is wrong

it should be Padam.... spelling

found the following paper : http://www.ethnoleaflets.com/leaflets/garhwal.htm

byBalwant Kumar  of  Department of Botany, Kumaun University Nainital, India

this is  Prunus cerasoides Don. 1825

searching for flowers and lifestory of Prunus cerasoides Don. 1825

found your pictures match up

and found a hindi essay that says its a threatened tree

https://www.jagran.com/uttarakhand/almora-padam-tree-is-brink-of-extinction-14999407.html

Regards

Ushadi

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[Shobha Halwe-Chavda]

Thank you so much Ushadi Ji for Id and some additional interesting information through the link.Although they have mentioned that it's a threatened species,fortunately I could see number of these trees in Chopta-Mandal region.

Regards,

Shobha

On Tuesday, 26 November 2019 15:10:03 UTC+5:30, Ushadi wrote:

not knowin pdma tree

i searched

found it after half an hour

padma search term is wrong

it should be Padam.... spelling

found the following paper : http://www.ethnoleaflets.com/leaflets/garhwal.htm

byBalwant Kumar  of  Department of Botany, Kumaun University Nainital, India

this is  Prunus cerasoides Don. 1825

searching for flowers and lifestory of Prunus cerasoides Don. 1825

found your pictures match up

and found a hindi essay that says its a threatened tree

https://www.jagran.com/uttarakhand/almora-padam-tree-is-brink-of-extinction-14999407.html

Regards

Ushadi

On Tue, Nov 26, 2019 at 2:16 PM Shobha Halwe-Chavda <koa...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Friends,

Flower for id pl.Local people call this 'पदम’ tree.

Location - Chopta ( Uttarakhand)
Date - November 2019

Regards,

Shobha Chavda

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[Shobha Halwe-Chavda]

Ushadi ji,I had seen similar tree-flowers of Peach Fruit Tree in Bhutan last year.I think they too belong to the same Genus - Prunus.

Regards

[ushadi]

SHobha

threatened status is a tricky thing

Threatened status is not removed when one sees a few trees in the same are

Pankaj who deals in Orchids and many of them are threatened

he can perhaps explain it better in lingo i can understand

so copying this to him too

Regards

Ushadi

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[Pankaj Kumar]

Thank you mam.

What is the question here?

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**********************************************************************************************************************
Pankaj Kumar, Ph.D.
IUCN-SSC Orchid Specialist Group Asia

Office:

Orchid Conservation Section

Flora Conservation Department

Kadoorie Farm and Botanic Garden (KFBG) Corporation
Lam Kam Road, Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong S.A.R., China

email: pku...@kfbg.org; sahani...@gmail.com
Phone: +852 2483 7128 (office - 8:30am to 5:00pm); +852 9436 6251 (mobile); Fax: +852 2483 7194

[ushadi]

Pankaj

i had said this tree PADAM was Prunus cerasoides Don. 1825

and that it was listed as threatened in this link:

and found a hindi essay that says its a threatened tree

https://www.jagran.com/uttarakhand/almora-padam-tree-is-brink-of-extinction-14999407.html

to which Shoba mentioned that she "Although they have mentioned that it's a threatened species,fortunately I could see number of these trees in Chopta-Mandal region."

i take it we need a short explanation of what is threatened and

that finding even a small stand of the same tree does not negate the threatened perception or listing

thats where i thought you can help us out

Regards

Ushadi

[Pankaj Kumar]

Threatened is a very popular term used by people, often unscientifically. Originally it is used in context of IUCN Redlisting. In redlisting we talk about the threat to a species and based on the intensity of threat a species is provided a Redlist category. Very often people say RET species, Rare Endangered and Threatened. A species can be rare naturally but not Endangered or Threatened, and a species an be Endangered or Threatened but may not be rare.

Prunus cerasoides is classified as Least Concerned in IUCN Redlist at global level. The major threat to this species globally is logging and wood harvesting as per IUCN and also an unknown disease which kills the plant. Plant is also supposed to be used in horticulture and medicine and is a very popular garden plant.

But then there are many regional issues. It may happen that at the local level the numbers are going down in Uttarakhand as mentioned by D.K.Joshi in your link. All depends on when scientists are doing the threat assessment what literature they had in their hand to extract information out of it. Secondly the status may change, may go up or go down depending upon the situation. A plant could be abundant in Chopta but still highly threatened at other places. This species is planted, may be thats why it looks common, but may be they dont produce new plants (no new recruitment), who knows. I will tell you one example in Hong Kong. We have an orchid Bulbophyllum bicolor in Hong Kong at around 12 locations. Plants look healthy and some populations are huge. You will say they dont look threatened. But they are. Why? because they never set fruits. We have not seen a single fruit in last 10 years atleast at any of the population. In Laos they say there are 6 elephants left, but in India we have around 30,000 individuals, but they are Endangered and you very well know why.

Will tell you another unrelated story. One person from oxford did a study on a species of Cycas from south India. This was a recently described species, Cycas swamyi which was earlier believed to be Cycas circinalis. Cycas circinalis is Endangered on the IUCN list. But no one assessed Cycas swamyi so the student went inside the protected area in india and harvested the plants for his study. Paper came to me for review. I rejected it on two basis: 1. It was illegal to harvest a plant from inside a protected area and author can go to jail.

2. It was illegal to harvest a plant which I will say is Critically Endangered (highest threat category as per IUCN). Journal replied to me that the species is not assessed so how can I say it has higher threat. I replied that the species was described from a single sub-population of a species which is Endangered (a lower threat category), then by logic it becomes Critically Endangered. 

 

Reference:

Rhodes, L., Pollard, R.P. & Maxted, N. 2016. Cerasus cerasoides. The IUCN Red List of Threatened Species 2016: e.T50026860A50670270. http://dx.doi.org/10.2305/IUCN.UK.2016-3.RLTS.T50026860A50670270.en. Downloaded on 29 November 2019.  

[ushadi]

Thank you Pankaj

Now i can // we can put it in perspective

so not only numbers, but ability to grow the population, set fruits/ give rise to off-springs,

and presence or absence of external threats , some that lead to fatalities, etc etc

collectively lead to Threatening a species...

so its a complex issue.

not to be taken lightly.

and not to be mislead or lulled into false sense of security if there are planted stands of some species.

as in this case , its planted for its beautiful flowers.

but in reality in the wild it may be threatened. because of increased logging, or not regenerating on its own in any appreciable numbers.

your analogy with the elephants is very apt.

yes, they are threatened . 

you have a knack for explaining botany/biology  in very easy understandable language

that's a gift

i appreciate it

that also makes a very good candidate for lectureships and professorship anywhere in the world.'

Regards

Ushadi

[Pankaj Kumar]

Thanks. Yes I am planning to shift to US, and looking for a job, HAHAHA!!

Yes it is not only numbers, but lot of other things that help in deciding the threat status. For example there is species A, many individuals, produce fruits and seedlings every year. Plant is found exclusively in a valley. There is no threat. Number is in 5000 mature individuals. Accordingly to IUCN it is least concerned. Now lets make a dam at the other end of the valley. The species has threat and if you can show that population is declining, the species even with 5000 mature individuals can be classified as Vulnerable.

A species distributed from Japan to Europe and Australia.  Tubers are collected for making salep. 1000s of mature individuals, high regenerating capacity, but still it can only be classified as Near Threatened.

There is a definition of mature individual in IUCN. Lets say one orchid and you see a bit population and you assume they are 30,000 in number. You will say Least Concerned. Then you come to know that this orchid produce branches and scattered all over the rock. So what you see scattered may look like 30,000 mature individual, but actually there is only a single individual (single genotype). Lets say this species needs two genotypes to make fruits (not very uncommon to have this phenomenon in orchids. Bulbophyllum bicolor is example). In this condition I will say AB ISKA TO BHAGWAAN MALIK HAI, CRITICALLY ENDANGERED and HEADING TOWARDS EXTINCTION. There are many such examples. There were tigers in China and in Hong Kong. The last one was shot in Hong Kong in 1947. So in China it is already Extinct in Wild (an IUCN category) but we still have it in India and it is Endangered (lower category thatn Critically Endangered)

All depends on how detailed information you have when you start assessing the threat to a particular species.

[Mahadeswara]

Great effort by madam Usha Di in finding the proper ID. 

On Tuesday, November 26, 2019 at 3:10:03 PM UTC+5:30, Ushadi wrote:

not knowin pdma tree

i searched

found it after half an hour

padma search term is wrong

it should be Padam.... spelling

found the following paper : http://www.ethnoleaflets.com/leaflets/garhwal.htm

byBalwant Kumar  of  Department of Botany, Kumaun University Nainital, India

this is  Prunus cerasoides Don. 1825

searching for flowers and lifestory of Prunus cerasoides Don. 1825

found your pictures match up

and found a hindi essay that says its a threatened tree

https://www.jagran.com/uttarakhand/almora-padam-tree-is-brink-of-extinction-14999407.html

Regards

Ushadi

On Tue, Nov 26, 2019 at 2:16 PM Shobha Halwe-Chavda <koa...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Friends,

Flower for id pl.Local people call this 'पदम’ tree.

Location - Chopta ( Uttarakhand)
Date - November 2019

Regards,

Shobha Chavda

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[ushadi]

Thank you Mahadeswara ji

your appreciation means a lot to me

Regards

Ushadi

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[Shobha Halwe-Chavda]

Pankaj ji,just wanted to ask whether these are Peach fruit Genus ? Looked very similar to me.and although it was mentioned as a threatened sp.I saw number of these trees on the way.Just looked like Cherry Blossom.

Regards,

Shobha

On Friday, 29 November 2019 03:51:51 UTC+5:30, Dr Pankaj Kumar wrote:

Thank you mam.

What is the question here?

On Thu, 28 Nov 2019 at 20:20, ushadi <micromi...@gmail.com> wrote:

SHobha

threatened status is a tricky thing

Threatened status is not removed when one sees a few trees in the same are

Pankaj who deals in Orchids and many of them are threatened

he can perhaps explain it better in lingo i can understand

so copying this to him too

Regards

Ushadi

On Thu, Nov 28, 2019 at 4:53 PM Shobha Halwe-Chavda <koa...@gmail.com> wrote:

Ushadi ji,I had seen similar tree-flowers of Peach Fruit Tree in Bhutan last year.I think they too belong to the same Genus - Prunus.

Regards

On Tuesday, 26 November 2019 14:16:26 UTC+5:30, Shobha Halwe-Chavda wrote:

Dear Friends,

Flower for id pl.Local people call this 'पदम’ tree.

Location - Chopta ( Uttarakhand)
Date - November 2019

Regards,

Shobha Chavda

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