Re: Cornus sp. from Khorrung, Ukhrul, Manipur for ID help

[Ritesh Kumar Choudhary]

Looks like Cornus kousa to me. Recently reported as a new record to India from Sikkim.

Requesting you to go through this paper in TAIWANIA 

Regards,

Ritesh.

[Ushadi Micromini]

Thanks Ritesh, I thought if anyone  knows it would be most likely include you.
thanks for the paper
details imp
usha di
==

--
 
 
 

--
Usha di
===========

[Paul Barney]

 Dear Ritesh,

Thank you for your help. This is most definitely not Cornus kousa. The fruit are much bigger and drop green. Cornus kousa has red fruit that are smaller only 1-1.5 cm diameter. http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=242443980

The largest of these fruit were over 4 cm in diameter.

Nor does this key out to be Cornus capitata.

I will certainly follow up your Taiwania link.

Kind regards

Paul

[Paul Barney]

Dear Ritesh,

The Taiwania article is very interesting and the fruit look remarkably similar. Interesting that the fruit are also
4 cm in diameter.
If this is Cornus kousa subsp. kousa then it would be new to Manipur?

Kind regards

Paul

[Ritesh Kumar Choudhary]

Dear Paul,

Thanks for writing me back. As the Taiwania paper mentions, Cornus is represented by only 3 (+1 as C. kousa) species in India., I too think your plant could be a new record to Manipur. Other three species do not match well with your photographs. Mentioning below the differentiating characters along with the links which you can check with your photographs/specimens.

Cornus capitata: Leaf blade narrowly elliptic or oblong-lanceolate. Fruits pubescent with small white trichomes.

Cornus elliptica: Fruits globose, but leaves abaxially white pubescent.

Cornus oblonga: Fruits onlong.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Ritesh.

[NickPGP]

Hi Ritesh

I was with Paul in Manipur. What's interesting about this Cornus is that it doesn't quite fit with any Asian Cornus I can think of, or find described. It is clearly close to C. capitata, which is common here in the UK from many introductions, over a very long period, from right across its natural range. Kingdon-Ward mentions finding C. capitata on Sirhoi in 1948, which will undoubtedly be this same taxon as Khorrung is a stone's throw from Sirhoi. But I have measured the fruit at up to 6cm across (Paul was being conservative!). C. capitata fruit are described as 1.5-2.5cm diameter, purple-red at maturity and 'densely covered in white trichomes', unlike ours - these dropped green as Paul's photos show. The fruits are 'flattened globose', as per C. capitata. It showed every sign of being fully evergreen, unlike C. kousa. It made trees up to perhaps 9m tall, unlike any C. kousa subsp. kousa. The very few flowers we saw (aberrant autumn flowers on part of one tree only) were white, unlike the pale yellow usually seen on C. capitata, though some are described as 'whitish'. C. capitata foliage is described as being abaxially 'densely pubescent with thick, white, appressed trichomes'. Our plant is abaxially glabrescent, with very few tiny hairs, feeling almost smooth to the touch. C. capitata has leaves adaxially 'grey-green', whereas ours are green.

Cornus oblonga is a very different plant. 

C. elliptica, only know from China, is, as you point out, with leaves abaxially white pubescent. The abaxial hairs are more abundant than in C. capitata, making them feel rougher. It has leaves adaxially glossier green than C. capitata, like our plant. It again has fruits only '1.5 to 2.5cm diameter' and 'globose'. Again densely covered in white trichomes, unlike ours.

It fits none of the Cornus described from India and as far as I can tell, anything else!

See attached further photos.

Many thanks for your interest

Nick Macer

[Ritesh Kumar Choudhary]

Thanks Nick for digging this more deep. I agree that the fruits are much bigger and leaves are different too. I could not guess the fruit's size with the previous photos. Definitely it is not  C. kousa ssp. kousa. Let us know if you describe it as a new species.

All the best.

Regards,

Ritesh.

On Wednesday, January 9, 2013 5:05:00 AM UTC+9, Paul Barney wrote:

Dear all,
We found this Cornus sp. on top of Khurrong Hill in Manipur on the site of a Japanese camp during WW2. The Cornus we large trees in amongst
Quercus lamilosa forest. The majority of the fruit had dropped to the ground and shown no signs of turning another colour beyond green. Our guides
ate the fruit although they were not quite ripe. They were clearly Cornus but not of a speciea I am familiar with.
Kind regards
Paul Barney

Date/Time-  17 Nov 2012 10 am

Location- Place, Altitude, GPS- Khurrong, Ukhrul, Manipur

Habitat- Garden/ Urban/ Wild/ Type- Woodland

Plant Habit- Tree/ Shrub/ Climber/ Herb-  Tree

Height/Length-  Ht up to 10 metres

Leaves Type/ Shape/ Size-

Inflorescence Type/ Size- not seen

Flowers Size/ Colour/ Calyx/ Bracts-

Fruits Type/ Shape/ Size Seeds- Fruit up to 4 cm

Other Information like Fragrance, Pollinator, Uses etc.- Edible. Eaten by the locals

 

[NickPGP]

Sorry for confusion, but I completely neglected to consider C. hongkongensis. It would seem this is the closest candidate, but the fruit are still much larger than anything so far recorded. If it does turn out to be this species it would about as disjunct a population as the C. kousa kousa in Sikkim!!

Cheers

Nick

[J.M. Garg]

Forwarding again for Id confirmation or otherwise please.

Some earlier relevant feedback:      

Looks like Cornus kousa to me. Recently reported as a new record to India from Sikkim. Requesting you to go through this paper in TAIWANIA Regards, Ritesh.

Thank you for your help. This is most definitely not Cornus kousa. The fruit are much bigger and drop green. Cornus kousa has red fruit that are smaller only 1-1.5 cm diameter. http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=242443980

The Taiwania article is very interesting and the fruit look remarkably similar. Interesting that the fruit are also

4 cm in diameter. If this is Cornus kousa subsp. kousa then it would be new to Manipur? Kind regards Paul

Thanks for writing me back. As the Taiwania paper mentions, Cornus is represented by only 3 (+1 as C. kousa) species in India., I too think your plant could be a new record to Manipur. Other three species do not match well with your photographs. Mentioning below the differentiating characters along with the links which you can check with your photographs/specimens.

Cornus capitata: Leaf blade narrowly elliptic or oblong-lanceolate. Fruits pubescent with small white trichomes. Cornus elliptica: Fruits globose, but leaves abaxially white pubescent. Cornus oblonga: Fruits onlong. Hope this helps. Regards, Ritesh.

I was with Paul in Manipur. What's interesting about this Cornus is that it doesn't quite fit with any Asian Cornus I can think of, or find described. It is clearly close to C. capitata, which is common here in the UK from many introductions, over a very long period, from right across its natural range. Kingdon-Ward mentions finding C. capitata on Sirhoi in 1948, which will undoubtedly be this same taxon as Khorrung is a stone's throw from Sirhoi. But I have measured the fruit at up to 6cm across (Paul was being conservative!). C. capitata fruit are described as 1.5-2.5cm diameter, purple-red at maturity and 'densely covered in white trichomes', unlike ours - these dropped green as Paul's photos show. The fruits are 'flattened globose', as per C. capitata. It showed every sign of being fully evergreen, unlike C. kousa. It made trees up to perhaps 9m tall, unlike any C. kousa subsp. kousa. The very few flowers we saw (aberrant autumn flowers on part of one tree only) were white, unlike the pale yellow usually seen on C. capitata, though some are described as 'whitish'. C. capitata foliage is described as being abaxially 'densely pubescent with thick, white, appressed trichomes'. Our plant is abaxially glabrescent, with very few tiny hairs, feeling almost smooth to the touch. C. capitata has leaves adaxially 'grey-green', whereas ours are green.

Cornus oblonga is a very different plant. C. elliptica, only know from China, is, as you point out, with leaves abaxially white pubescent. The abaxial hairs are more abundant than in C. capitata, making them feel rougher. It has leaves adaxially glossier green than C. capitata, like our plant. It again has fruits only '1.5 to 2.5cm diameter' and 'globose'. Again densely covered in white trichomes, unlike ours. It fits none of the Cornus described from India and as far as I can tell, anything else! See attached further photos. Many thanks for your interest Nick Macer

Thanks Nick for digging this more deep. I agree that the fruits are much bigger and leaves are different too. I could not guess the fruit's size with the previous photos. Definitely it is not C. kousa ssp. kousa. Let us know if you describe it as a new species.

All the best. Regards, Ritesh.

Sorry for confusion, but I completely neglected to consider C. hongkongensis. It would seem this is the closest candidate, but the fruit are still much larger than anything so far recorded. If it does turn out to be this species it would about as disjunct a population as the C. kousa kousa in Sikkim!! Cheers Nick

 

--
 
 
 

--

With regards,
J.M.Garg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jmgarg1

'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna'
The whole world uses my Image Resource of more than a thousand species & eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies, Plants etc. (arranged alphabetically & place-wise): http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:J.M.Garg. You can also use them for free as per Creative Commons license attached with each image.

For identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian Flora, please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group: http://groups.google.co.in/group/indiantreepix (more than 2030 members & 1,42,000 messages on 31/12/12) or Efloraofindia website: https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/ (with a species database of more than 7500 species).

Also author of 'A Photoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds of India'. 

[J.M. Garg]

A reply:

"I must say, I find it very difficult to believe C. kousa subsp. kousa would be found in Sikkim considering it is only known from Japan and Korea and with C. kousa subsp. chinensis geographically in between. I wonder whether there may be a connection between these Manipur plants and the Sikkim find. I also wonder if the Sikkim plants are catagorically, definitely deciduous.

Nick"

[J.M. Garg]

Forwarding again for Id confirmation or otherwise please.

Some earlier relevant feedback:

Looks like Cornus kousa to me. Recently reported as a new record to India from Sikkim. Requesting you to go through this paper in TAIWANIA Regards, Ritesh.

Thank you for your help. This is most definitely not Cornus kousa. The fruit are much bigger and drop green. Cornus kousa has red fruit that are smaller only 1-1.5 cm diameter. http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=242443980

- show quoted text -

I must say, I find it very difficult to believe C. kousa subsp. kousa would be found in Sikkim considering it is only known from Japan and Korea and with C. kousa subsp. chinensis geographically in between. I wonder whether there may be a connection between these Manipur plants and the Sikkim find. I also wonder if the Sikkim plants are catagorically, definitely deciduous. Nick

[Gurcharan Singh]

Forwarding for ID

Distributed as Cornus sp.- Khorrung, Ukhrul, Manipur

Group discussion at

Re: Cornus sp. from Khorrung, Ukhrul, Manipur for ID help (google.com)

[Gurcharan Singh]

Forwarding for ID

Distributed as Cornus sp.- Khorrung, Ukhrul, Manipur

Group discussion at

Re: Cornus sp. from Khorrung, Ukhrul, Manipur for ID help (google.com)

[Ritesh Kumar Choudhary]

Thanks for reminding me of this species, Gurcharan sir. I am asking the help of Dr Jenny from NCSU, USA who has extensively worked on Cornus. Hope I'll get an answer soon.

Regards,

Ritesh

[J.M. Garg]

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "efloraofindia" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to indiantreepi...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/indiantreepix/CABOA4xn0pMfW7GZSGTPPWEpEMUKLBvLnpLKRrGsky7_EvQu3QQ%40mail.gmail.com.

--

With regards,
J.M.Garg

[J.M. Garg]

Thanks, Ritesh ji

On Wed, 11 Aug 2021 at 17:38, Ritesh Kumar Choudhary <rites...@gmail.com> wrote:

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "efloraofindia" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to indiantreepi...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/indiantreepix/CABOA4xn0pMfW7GZSGTPPWEpEMUKLBvLnpLKRrGsky7_EvQu3QQ%40mail.gmail.com.

--

With regards,
J.M.Garg

[J.M. Garg]

Hi, Paul ji,

Could you get it identified?

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Paul Barney <edulis...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 at 10:02
Subject: [efloraofindia:143093] Cornus sp. from Khorrung, Ukhrul, Manipur for ID help
To: <indian...@googlegroups.com>

Dear all,
We found this Cornus sp. on top of Khurrong Hill in Manipur on the site of a Japanese camp during WW2. The Cornus we large trees in amongst
Quercus lamilosa forest. The majority of the fruit had dropped to the ground and shown no signs of turning another colour beyond green. Our guides
ate the fruit although they were not quite ripe. They were clearly Cornus but not of a speciea I am familiar with.
Kind regards
Paul Barney

Date/Time-  17 Nov 2012 10 am

Location- Place, Altitude, GPS- Khurrong, Ukhrul, Manipur

Habitat- Garden/ Urban/ Wild/ Type- Woodland

Plant Habit- Tree/ Shrub/ Climber/ Herb-  Tree

Height/Length-  Ht up to 10 metres

Leaves Type/ Shape/ Size-

Inflorescence Type/ Size- not seen

Flowers Size/ Colour/ Calyx/ Bracts-

Fruits Type/ Shape/ Size Seeds- Fruit up to 4 cm

Other Information like Fragrance, Pollinator, Uses etc.- Edible. Eaten by the locals

 

--
 
 
 

--

With regards,
J.M.Garg

[Nick Macer]

Hello both, this turned out to be the newly described Cornus sunhangii, according to Jenny.

All the best

Nick

Nick Macer

Director, Pan Global Plants Ltd.

01452 741641

07801 275138

You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "efloraofindia" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/indiantreepix/j12oQVozj3s/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to indiantreepi...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/indiantreepix/CA%2BiuSFC_1vaaT-N%3Dz-V1NQgx7LH_Rs%3D%2B6%2B%3D8T%2BTaoSY74yifTg%40mail.gmail.com.

[J.M. Garg]

Thanks a lot, Nick ji

--
With regards,
J. M. Garg

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/indiantreepix/CACamBBRu%2BBFYKh%3D9HkCVqfQeaHTXE5WVRCiV61GcFhCJWvjTOw%40mail.gmail.com.

[Ritesh Kumar Choudhary]

Thanks for the information, Nick Ji.

Regards,

Ritesh