Vmap pre-mid-post - the postroll VAST is loaded when midroll is loaded

[Oren Melamed]

Issue is that post roll is loaded long before it is supposed to be played.

If you play a video 16min long for example and you have a VMAP with preroll ad break, midroll at 3:00 and postroll then on initial load VMAP will load, then on first play preroll vast will load and play, then when video content will start playing and reach min 3:00 both midroll and postroll VASTs will load, although postroll should only be played in minute 16:00.

This call may cause inventory issues cause there is no assurance that postroll will ever be reached.

Is this the expected behaviour? can it be set to not load it in advance like this?

[IMA SDK]

Hi there,

Thank you for reaching out to us. The scenario that you're describing is an intended behavior and this should not cause any inventory issues. The LOADED ad event is just telling you that the ad data is now available and will fire when the VAST response has been received.

Regards,
Sherwin Diesta
IMA SDK Team

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[Oren Melamed]

Hi Sherwin,

The vast is actually being loaded, it's not an IMA SDK event, it is a network call to the ad server to retrieve the VAST minutes before it should be triggered.

[IMA SDK]

Hi Oren,

Thank you for your response.

The LOADED ad event fires when ad data (the Ad object in JavaScript) is first available, which is not the same as when the ad creative has been downloaded.

With VMAP ad schedules, Post-roll ad break information will always be requested as soon as the last pre-roll or mid-roll ad completes. This is a workaround because the ContentPlayheadTracker does not have access to the duration of the video, and so cannot fire a set number of seconds before the start of the ad break.

Regards,
Sherwin Diesta
IMA SDK Team

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[Oren Melamed]

Yes, I was not referring to LOADED event at all so it is not an issue on my side.

The issue is that ad inventory is called even though it is very unlikely that user will get to it.

Loading the VAST of the postroll minutes before it will be triggered is a big issue for my clients.

I understand this is a technical issue in IMA from your reply and would like to know how can we address it as the financial issue is apparent - ad inventory is being counted but not served all the time with high probability.

[IMA SDK]

Hi Oren,

Thanks for your response.

Could you please share with us the ad tag that's being used in which this issue is reproducible? I'm going to share with the team to investigate further.

Please share the above information via "Reply privately to author" option.

Regards,
Sherwin Diesta
IMA SDK Team

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[Oren Melamed]

Sure: https://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/ads?sz=640x480&iu=/124319096/external/ad_rule_samples&ciu_szs=300x250&ad_rule=1&impl=s&gdfp_req=1&env=vp&output=vmap&unviewed_position_start=1&cust_params=deployment%3Ddevsite%26sample_ar%3Dpremidpost&cmsid=496&vid=short_onecue&correlator=

And here is direct link to your inspector: https://developers.google.com/interactive-media-ads/docs/sdks/html5/vastinspector?tag=https%253A%252F%252Fpubads.g.doubleclick.net%252Fgampad%252Fads%253Fsz%253D640x480%2526iu%253D%252F124319096%252Fexternal%252Fad_rule_samples%2526ciu_szs%253D300x250%2526ad_rule%253D1%2526impl%253Ds%2526gdfp_req%253D1%2526env%253Dvp%2526output%253Dvmap%2526unviewed_position_start%253D1%2526cust_params%253Ddeployment%25253Ddevsite%252526sample_ar%25253Dpremidpost%2526cmsid%253D496%2526vid%253Dshort_onecue%2526correlator%253D

And also added a video that shows the issue here: https://www.dropbox.com/t/dYVpt0usSaCEEY7e (please note, video was too big to attach so it is hosted in my corp dropbox and will expire in 30days)

When test ad is clicked VMAP is loaded and playback starts so preroll is loaded.

In second 11 the mid roll is loaded, as it should cause you load it 4 seconds before it should play, as second 15 of video content.

Midroll plays and then when it ends main content resumes and although there are 45 seconds till end of video the postroll vast is already loaded.

Now think of longer videos - this could happen 10s of minutes before end of video as well!

[IMA SDK]

Hi Oren,

I've run the VMAP pre-mid-post you're referring to against our VSI, the SDK doesn't load the post-roll when the mid-roll is loaded. The post-roll was loaded after the mid-roll completed event was fired. In the new VMAP context, the SDK loads the post-roll after the last mid-roll playback. This behavior is intended and should not affect the inventory because the viewable_impression, and vastcreative_view pixels are sent only if the post-roll is displayed.

Regards,
Arnaud Casame
IMA SDK Team

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[Oren Melamed]

I don’t understand why you are “proving” me wrong time after time on what I said(?!?!)
If you read my last very detailed description I said that postroll is loaded after midroll has finished.
What is the point of you repeating it as if this is the case I complained about? It is not.
And now back to the case, requesting the vast is calling inventory.
This is bad cause sometimes advertisers and publishers check inventory calls vs fulfillment.
So what you mentioned will look as - ad was requested but was never fulfilled.
If this preloading of casts was mandatory then all the VASTs would have been pre requested when vmap was initially loaded, but this is not the case, so there is absolutely no reason for you to example the postroll from this rule.
If the issue is that you don’t know the video duration so you preload it to avoid buffering, this is implementation detail and you can request in SDK the content player to pass duration, and fallback to best practice of checking video element for its duration.
But in any case the SDK implementation detail can’t be held against driving inventory requests of publishers.

[IMA SDK]

Hi Oren,

Thank you for response and my apologies if the issue is a bit frustrating on your end.

I've checked again the behavior of our VSI with our sample VMAP ad tag and I confirmed that the VAST XML of the postroll has been received from the ad server after the midroll has finished (please see attached video recording: preloadingFALSE - at 57sec mark of the video). However, this is an intended behavior, as I've mentioned previously, the postroll ad break information will always be requested as soon as the last preroll or midroll ad completes and should not affect the inventory, just like what my colleague said: the viewable_impression and vastcreative_view pixels are sent only if the postroll is displayed. You can see this behavior at 1:24min mark of the above video.

The IMA SDK do have a preloading feature, which you can either set to TRUE or FALSE. When the preloading is set to FALSE, the first ad creative will be requested at the start of the ad break (at 1:24min mark of the above video). While when set to TRUE, the first ad creative in the ad break will be requested right after the LOADED event or before the actual postroll ad break started, which might be your case (attached video recording: preloadingTRUE - at the 49sec mark of the video, the postroll ad creative has already been requested before the postroll starts).

That being said, would you be able use the preloading feature (adsRenderingSettings.enablePreloading = false) of the IMA SDK and see if this could resolve the issue by setting the request of the ad creative at the start of the postroll ad break?

Let me know if this works on your end.

Regards,
Sherwin Diesta
IMA SDK Team

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[Oren Melamed]

Are you saying enablePreloading is set to true in VSI?

I don't think it is, so how is this relevant to the issue?

I think the case is being missed here.

You are looking from a different view.

From perspective of analytics - the analytics viewer doesn't understand your point - it sees that a VAST was fetched from the server - he doesn't know when or why, just that it was fetched.

The fact that the asset is fetched way before it is served makes the chance of it not to be fulfilled very likely, so it will be shown as unfulfilled inventory.

The publisher requests the asset from the advertiser but doesn't show it.

For all other ads - preroll and midroll this is not the case, the publisher asks for the ad just a few sec before it is served so it is very likely that ad will be served and if it doesn't then it can be accounted to viewer actually dropping before ad started or right when ad started.

[IMA SDK]

Hi Oren,

Thanks for your response.

Yes, you are correct that the enablePreloading is NOT set to TRUE. The preloading feature in our VSI is set to FALSE by default (attached screenshot). If you take a closer look at the video attached, having the preloading set to FALSE, the asset or the file associated with the first creative object for postroll together with the viewable impressions will be requested (will be highlighted in the video) at the start of the postroll ad break (50sec mark of the video).

Thus, I would really suggest trying this feature of the IMA SDK and see if this would resolve the issue that the publisher is experiencing. Please let me know the outcome of the test.

Regards,
Sherwin Diesta
IMA SDK Team

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[Oren Melamed]

I’m aware of the flag and what it does but again I explained the issue and this doesn’t relate to it nor solve it.

Asking for the creative asset(the video) is not the issue.

Issue is the request of the VAST possibly 10s of minutes before it is needed.

This can affect inventory and other campaign related decisions.

Requesting the vast so much time before it is actually served has high potential of loosing inventory as it is requested but may very likely never be played.

This has no relation to impression!

[IMA SDK]

Hi Oren,

How are the inventory decisions made using the LOADED event? Can you share a scenario during which the SDK loading the post-roll ad minutes before its playback affects the inventory?

Regards,
Arnaud Casame
IMA SDK Team

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[Oren Melamed]

Clients are using this for their analytics and they expect that ads will be loaded just before they are played - same as you do for midrolls.

We are talking about DFP clients using their ads via our player so we are basically forced to answer this on your behalf where this is not documented or given a reasonable explanation.

Why do you load the post rolls so early? why not 4sec before like midrolls?

[IMA SDK]

Hi Oren,

The post-roll cannot be loaded 4sec before its cue-point because the ContentPlayheadTracker does not have access to the duration of the video content, and so cannot fire a set number of seconds before the start of the ad break. This feature was added to the SDK to improve the user experience and provide a uniform ad-fetch experience for all of our publishers across many platforms with different limitations. We are taking publisher feedback under advisement, so keep an eye on our release page for future updates on this functionality.

Regards,
Arnaud Casame
IMA SDK Team

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[Oren Melamed]

Arnaud, circling back on this.

Yet another two DFP customers using our player are complaining about this behaviour.

We are talking about DFP customers.

I understand you had some internal technical issue around this that made you change the behaviour but those customers are compiling about increased inventory being asked but not played.

Are you planning to address this?

[IMA SDK]

Hi Oren,

Setting the contentDuration would allow publishers to give the SDK a range for postroll computation in the HTML5 SDK and you can disregard that it's only for Adx. Could your publishers try this out?

Regards,

Aryeh Baker IMA SDK Team

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[Oren Melamed]

Hi Aryeh, as per IMA SDK examples we don't wait for the main content to load and load the ad tag before so duration is not known.

We are getting multiple complaints from various DFP clients using our player with your IMA SDK and they all complain they see high POSTROLL demand of inventory with no fulfilment.

The chance of users pulling the postroll without seeing it is very high.

[IMA SDK]

Hi Oren,

Thank you for getting back to us and narrowing down what is needed. Here is how things stand now:

1. If you know in advance how long content is you can tell SDK with contentDuration before loading ad tag, and post roll VAST request from VMAP won't go out to server until right before end of content.
2. If publisher doesn't care that loading time occurs after content ends then they can put an insanely high number in contentDuration and ad request will go out right after content ends.
3. If contentDuration isn't used then the ads request goes out right after last midroll which causes problems with increased revenue being asked but not played on long content.

You are asking for a method to send to the SDK after a VMAP is already requested to update the content duration when it becomes known. Content itself may have information on its duration in it, and once it's loaded that duration becomes known. The publisher at least can figure this duration out even if our SDK can't. You would like to pass this duration to our SDK after the ads request was sent out so that postroll VAST request will go out at a more optimal time.

1. Could you give feedback on my summary if it describes what you need?
2. If my summary is correct, could you give us an example of a publisher knowing the content length after content starts in a way that the SDK wouldn't be able to compute so that I can present your use case to the rest of my team?
3. Are there sure fire ways of detecting duration that you would want our SDK to automatically detect and adjust preroll VAST request accordingly?
4. Maybe it's the analytics side that needs to change their accounting - postrolls may be difficult to compute regardless?

[Oren Melamed]

Hi,

That's a great sum up. thank you.

1. Yes, the sum up describes the exact functionality required.

2. Let's say the video content is in a CMS. The app has the ad tag url and the video ID for the CMS. It loads the player and ask to load a video by its ID from CMS, and while the request for content is pending it wants to load the VMAP and start playing the first postroll already so it shots the adRequest before it has a valid url and metadata from CMS.

3. Good question, as the video element passed to the SDK doesn't have to be the real content video tag so you might not be able to get the duration. I think your suggestion that updating the duration via a new API may solve the issue we are facing and you can limit it to comply to current state - if the duration is not updated before last preroll/midroll then SDK will load it as it does today up front. this will ensure app has enough time to update SDK with the main content duration.

What we are currently doing is we are holding back on calling requestAds with a new adsRequest to only after we get the main content duration so we are possibly missing out on loading optimization.

4. Could be but we will have to get on a 3-way call to sort this out probably.

[IMA SDK]

Hi Oren,

Thank you for your response. Feel free to get back to us and let us know if setting the content duration through the contentDuration of the SDK would solve this issue on your end.

Regards,

Sherwin Diesta IMA SDK Team

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[Oren Melamed]

Hi Sherwin, as I mentioned above, the proposed solution is working but is too rigid for real world applications.

In addition, we have tried this on the Android IMA sdk and it is not working.

[Gourav Saxena]

Hi Sherwin,

I work in Oren's team. As Mentioned by Oren please see the attached screenshots of Android Studio and Charles (Postroll requests immediately goes after last midroll). I checked on IMA Advanced Example. I checked on the 'master' branch.

Regards,

Gourav

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[IMA SDK]

Hi Oren and Gourav,

Thank you for getting back to us. I raised your request for changing content duration after sending out ads request to the rest of my team. At this point we are aware that Android doesn't change time of sending out the request for a postroll VAST based on contentDuration and I will raise this request for that functionality to the rest of my team. You may monitor our HTML5 and Android release notes for an update.

Regards,

Aryeh Baker IMA SDK Team

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[Oren Melamed]

Thanks for passing this to the team, looking forward for an update.

We are also aiming to get this functionality on iOS.

May we assume contentDuration is also not functional there and requires a nee version?

[IMA SDK]

Hi Oren,

Thanks for getting back to us. Let me check this with the team to confirm. In case this is not working on iOS, then this can be added in the request. You can keep an eye on our release notes (HTML5, Android and iOS) for updates regarding this.


Regards,

Sherwin Diesta IMA SDK Team

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[IMA SDK]

Hi Oren,

My team circled back and wants to know how important the ability to load the VAST for postroll right before content ends instead of after content ends is to you? What are the metrics that would demand such an "improvement"? The question really is that currently in the HTML5 SDK if contentDuration is called with a huge number the postroll VAST gets called after contentComplete - if a user is willing to watch until postroll then there's only an extra second for loading.

[Oren Melamed]

Hi, as stated above, this feature is not important to me but to DFP clients which we serve with our player that uses IMA SDK across all platforms(HTML5, Android and iOS).

The metric is inventory fulfilment which shows very high postroll inventory request but actual ads don't play if users didn't actually watch till end.

Re: "if a user is willing to watch until postroll then there's only an extra second for loading." - I didn't quite understand what you meant by this. 

[IMA SDK]

Hi Oren,

Thank you for your feedback and request for clarification. You are indeed the representative of your publishers that rely on your player and we are taking your advice and requests seriously.

My understanding of what you are asking is that in order to ensure that postroll VAST request isn't sent out early we give the contentDuration that works in HTML SDK to our Android, Apple and other SDK's. I will again bring this up with my team and you may monitor the SDK release notes for Android and iOS for an update.

Regarding my comment "if a user is willing to watch until postroll then there's only an extra second for loading." - the context for my comment comes from my discussing with you the request to supply a contentDuration field to the SDK after adsRequest was already sent. In many situations the duration of content is unknown until after content loads and the adsRequest is already sent out. Currently in the HTML SDK, if you send a huge number to contentDuration then the postroll will load only after content ends and not right before content ends and this solves the problem of postroll requested too early. My query is whether the further refinement of loading the postroll right before content ends instead of loading the postroll after content ends was important in the case that duration of content becomes known too late to supply to the adsRequest, and I illustrated the use case with my comment. My team is looking for metrics on the need for this refinement.

[Oren Melamed]

Hi, didn't mean to be snarky, I think this thread shows I'm very much invloved and I'm also appreciative of IMA SDK.

Would appreciate if this can be resolved in Android and iOS as issue is same there.

I would rather have the duration be updated dynamically so our end users will get the preload optimization, and I don't feel conftorabble setting this as 99999999999 just to hack it, and I assume you would feel this is an abuse of API.

[IMA SDK]

Hi Oren,

Thank you for your input on abuse of the API with sending a crazy number. We are thinking of creating a constant to send to contentDuration that won't be an abuse of the API.

Could you provide us metrics that show the need for more refinement with a new API to change contentDuration after the adRequest is sent out?

As far as we know, postroll is very much a niche case (what user even stays to watch postroll after content ends?).

What are the stats, how many users reach the content end, and of those, what percent watch postroll?

I did observe video players that play videos non-stop, so postroll could be seen as a preroll for the next video. Is this the case?

[IMA SDK]

Hi Oren,

We are also looking into providing this contentDuration functionality to the native Android and iOS SDK's. You may monitor our release notes for HTML5, for Android and for iOS for an update.

[gourav...@gmail.com]

Hi @Aryeh,

Please let me know if you have any update for this in the upcoming Android IMA releases.

[IMA SDK]

Hi Gourav,

I relayed your interest and request for a timeline to the rest of my team but we cannot promise when it will be available. This feature is actively being pursued by our team. You may monitor our release notes for an update.

[Gourav Saxena]

Thanks Aryeh for the update. I will curiously wait for the release notes. 

Regards,

Gourav

[Oren Melamed]

Hi IMA team, coming back to this. The web solution turned out to be good and we are eagerly waiting for the Android fix. Can you share timelines?

BTW, on iOS, which I think I promised to circle back to you, the issue doesn't happen. Postrolls are only loaded at the end. 

Are you aware of this?

Also per the suggested API changes, is there any update on this?

[IMA SDK]

Hi Oren,

Thank you for getting back to us. As we cannot guarantee when the ETA or the timeline. Rest assured that our team is working actively with regard to this issue and will update our release notes accordingly once updates are available.

As for the iOS behavior, thanks for confirming this, however, let me share this with the team to verify and will let you know for any feedback.

Regards,

Sherwin Diesta IMA SDK Team

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[IMA SDK]

Hi Oren,

Hope you’re doing well.

Just wanted to let you know that the fix is now live for this issue. Kindly refer to the below Android code sample on how to use this.
 

AdsRequest request = sdkFactory.createAdsRequest();

request.setAdTagUrl(tagUrl);

request.setContentDuration(-3);

Let me know if the above works for you.


Regards,

[Gourav Saxena]

Hi Sherwin.

Thanks for your update. 

I am from Oren's team. At a glance, I have checked the solution and it looks fine; working as expected. For sure, I will check in depth.

My observations which are as per the expectation.

1. Postroll only loads when the content completes.

2. Midroll loads as usual. ( If it midroll is at 15th second then it preloads at around 9 or 10th second)

3. Pre-roll works as usual. 

Regards,

Gourav

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[IMA SDK]

Hi Gourav,

Thank you for the initial feedback, I will raise it with my team and will do the same for any actionable subsequent feedback. 

Regards,

Aryeh Baker IMA SDK Team

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[Gourav Saxena]

Hi Aryeh,

One question, If I am setting content duration to -1, it is preloading postroll after midroll.

And if I set -3, it does not preload and it plays after the content ends.

Is -3 is unique in order to avoid preloading ? I have to pass this value only ?

Regards,

Gourav

[IMA SDK]

Hi Gourav,

Thank you for he response back to our previous question. Having looked over the feedback that I see regarding this issue. The -3 should have no specific known issues. But I would still suggest to set it as a -1, as the system might be reading it a way that we do not know about.

Regards,

Wiliam Pescherine IMA SDK Team

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[Gourav Saxena]

Hi William,

But that is my question was that if i am setting -1, it is not working ( preload is happening for postroll immediately after the last midroll) which I don't want to do.

If and only if i set -3 then only it is working.

Can you please ask the team why is it so ?

Is -3 is unique to achieve this functionality ?

Thanks a lot for your help.

[IMA SDK]

Hi Gourav,

Thank you for your response. Yes you are correct, the -3 is a unique value that you can use in order to disable postroll preload; postroll for VMAP will load when content ends.

Let me know if you have further questions or clarifications.


Regards,

Sherwin Diesta IMA SDK Team

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[Gourav Saxena]

Hi Sherwin,

Thanks for the clarification.

Regards,

Gourav