Hawks-Joch

[Andy Mathey]

I'm imagining that this (former) trail has been discussed here in the past, but perhaps there is interest in a revival?

I remember reading about it on New England Ski History site a few years ago and just took another look at it again.  Has anybody tried finding remnants of the ski trail?  If it was CCC built, they tended to leave evidence in the way of boulder margins...

I realize that Chickley Alps falls on private property, but the upper slopes of Hawks are in Mohawk S.F.  It would be really cool to relocate this historic trail (and ski it!).

It is listed in a 1950's, "Massachusetts Ski Guide" published by the MA Development and Industrail Commission.

https://www.newenglandskihistory.com/cccskitrails/Massachusetts/hawksmtn.php

[Philip Lussier]

No search of the newsgroup turned up any past reference to the trail. I would guess it followed a route similar to the yellow line I drew down the ridge from the summit to the top of the Chickley Alps slopes (yellow circle). Historical topo image from '47. No sign of a trail but open areas in the woods are still visible along the line of possible descent. I would guess it used switchbacks to lessen the grade in the steepest spots along that line. Seems like a fun project to find remnants of it. 

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[Phil]

Another confirmation of the existence of the trail. A detail from a trail map from the Nelsap.org site showing the "TOURING TRAIL" that came in from the upper right of the map to the top of the rope tow. Date of the map was given as "late 50s."

[Phil]

Yet further proof there is an old trail. This is an image from Mass Mapper with the Lidar shaded relief data layer beneath a nearly transparent USGS topo data layer. The lidar shows the ground relief and the old rope tow is visible. So is a trail that leaves/enters in the same direction as the TOURING TRAIL on the old 50s trail map. Unfortunately following the lidar image doesn't reveal a clear line to the top of Hawks Mt. There are a network of trail scars, probably due to logging in that area, that obscure any old continuous route. 

[Andy Mathey]

This is GREAT!  I actually..sorta...wish it was still Fall so that I could go out and search that area.

It is interesting that it is labeled as a touring trail, when the descent from the top of Hawks looks pretty steep.  Is that just a difference in semantics from the 1930-50's era?

At Chickely, I didn't realize that the bottom of the rope tow started so far up above the road.  From 8A, it looks like there is a graded straight old tow line to the lookers right of the old lodge.

On Mon, Dec 8, 2025 at 6:10 PM Phil <philipk...@gmail.com> wrote:

Yet further proof there is an old trail. This is an image from Mass Mapper with the Lidar shaded relief data layer beneath a nearly transparent USGS topo data layer. The lidar shows the ground relief and the old rope tow is visible. So is a trail that leaves/enters in the same direction as the TOURING TRAIL on the old 50s trail map. Unfortunately following the lidar image doesn't reveal a clear line to the top of Hawks Mt. There are a network of trail scars, probably due to logging in that area, that obscure any old continuous route. 

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Andy Mathey
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[Philip Lussier]

I think it did start closer to the road. I was drawing the arrow free hand and didn't put it where I should have, for the location of the bottom. You can see the other rope tow scar, to the south, is much easier to follow top to bottom and starts below the next contour line down. I would think the longer tow would have been similar. Much closer to the bottom of the hill.

[Phil]

I think "touring" in that time period was a designation that it was a self-powered ascent with no lift. Goodman's history in his backcountry skiing books quotes Roland Palmedo, who founded Mad River Glen, as being interested in creating a network of "touring" trails along with the ones that were served by lifts, but they were all high elevation ridge top trails that would not have been suitable for the kind of "touring" equipment we think of using today. They would still have been backcountry ski trails much like what they had around Mansfield and what Goodman calls "down mountain" trails borrowing a term from that time period.

[Phil]

This is from Goodman, 2001 ed., from the section he titled The Northeastern Renaissance: "Roland Palmedo, who founded Mad River Glen in 1949 and was involved in the early days of the ski area at Stowe, made a plea to skiers not to forget the sport they were leaving behind. Writing in Appalachia in 1951, he implored: There seems to be little doubt but that "lift skiing" will continue to be the most popular form of the ski sport...But cross-country touring and other forms of liftless skiing also have their rewards. The feeling of being on an expedition, the sense of having to cope with whatever lies ahead, the constant change of view or landscape, the companionship of a group moving together, the small adventures of a day on the trail, these things appeal to skiers who have a little of the pioneering instinct, who occasionally like to get off the beaten track, and away from the crowd on the slanted circuit." In apparently the same issue of Appalachia, Goodman uses again in reference to Palmedo: "After skiing the Monroe Skyline from Appalachian Gap to Lincoln Gap, he declared in the AMC journal Appalachia in December 1951, "Scenically, this portion of the Long Trail is unsurpassed. The ridge being as sharp as a church roof most of the way, one can frequently look down on the parallel valleys on either side...the area is one of the wildest and most unspoiled in the state." Goodman continues: "Palmedo insisted that the Monroe Skyline 'has the natural characteristic of a first-rate touring trail."

Touring for folks in the 50s was what we would call backcountry skiing today.

[Andy Mathey]

That is a great example for the migration of the term 'ski touring' from one generation to the next.  

Right now, there are many folks who would not consider Dutch Hill 'backcountry' skiing at all.  It is certainly self-powered skiing, but whether it is truly 'backcountry' is ripe for debate.

I've received more than a few emails from the 'disgruntled demographic' blaming backcountry alliances (in general) for ruining the purity of the sport.  My counterpoint is always that Petersburg, Dutch Hill, Snow Basin, Berlin, PSF, Beartown, Hogback, Ascutney, Snow Valley and many other defunct ski areas make for low hanging fruit to 'manage' for backcountry use.  Are they really 'backcountry'?  Not really.  They mostly have parking areas, old infrastructure, machine graded trails, and relatively clear terrain depending on the age of their defunctness.  I consider them 'managed backcountry' along with areas that are cut but were never ski areas like Brandon Gap, Braintree Mt, Dover Town Forest, etc.  If one wants a 'true backcountry' experience i.e terrain not actively managed for skiing----all it takes is Caltopo, a pair of skis and a sandwich. My point being that 'backcountry' itself can have many meanings.  The Monroe Skyline is one of my favorite sections on the Long Trail too, though I've never taken skis along the ridge (except close to MRG).  That sounds like a wild 'backcountry tour' ;)

[Phil]

I'm not sure what "purity" they are craving. If anything, the b.c. alliances deserve a thank you from those who crave "pure" backcountry since the reopening of places like D.H. and the glading efforts in Brandon Gap, etc. has been a boon to those who dread seeing another set of tracks in woods, since those kinds of places concentrate the crowds instead of the alternate situation where they are dispersed more widely. Is their search for purity for the bootleg runs that existed in some of those exact places before they were legitimized? 

[Phil]

Perhaps Joch Pass in Switzerland was the inspiration for the name? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joch_Pass

[Andy Mathey]

Yes--I think the 'purity' is more about 'proprietary' feelings for places that were once pretty quiet.  I understand that feeling too.  It does suck when your favorite swimming hole 'blows up' and suddenly there is a line of cars at the pull-off.  And one could hold responsible the dude posting info on secretswimspots.com, especially if they are charging a fee for this location information.  I think that this is where the misunderstanding comes from.  The difference between scenarios for us (backcountry alliances), I think, is that we are actively engaging with public agencies, property owners and other stakeholders for legitimate land use permission, increased access for more terrain, advocating for better recreation policies, and building infrastructure to improve user experience.  It's pretty sweet when you show up at Brandon Gap for the first time and there is a plowed parking area, a ski trail map, a few bridges at stream crossings, and marked trails at intersections.  Within that zone, there is still a lot of explore and feel 'lost' if you want to.

If only our "Joch pass' was 7k'...

I've been spending a lot of time the last couple of years exploring (what I call) the Plateau; the area of Mohawk S.F accessed by Harwood Extension.  It is a really cool area---very remote feeling (especially right now with Black Brook rd closed).  There is a lot of potential skiing in those drainages, most notably the hill I'm calling 'Trout Peak', facing north looking straight down at Trout brook.  Some aspects of the Hawk massif have some interesting lines too----though there is a lot laurel and hemlock in the best spots.

[Philip Lussier]

Those B.C. zones were pretty quiet because the lure of B.C. travel hadn't caught on. The B.C. alliances are only responding to a need, they didn't create it. David Goodman's books had a lot to do with it, but the whole insane theme park culture of most ski areas contributed a great deal to the "Northeast Renaissance" that Goodman talks about. 

I just went up to Mt. Snow this a.m. I got there before dawn and went up a non-sanctioned route to reach a high point that did intersect with the approved uphilling route. The trip up, and down, on both aspects, was a study in contrasts. I really enjoyed the freshly groomed corduroy but, transitioning to the ungroomed, untracked, non-sanctioned route to finish the lower part of the descent had its merits too. I would have missed out on either thrill if I hadn't combined them. I was thinking about that on the way up. I've been using skins to ascend for 30+ years. For the greater part of that I could have picked any route on any ski area and not been told I was breaking any rules. There were none until recently. Along with that, I didn't need a ski area when snow levels in the trees of the local hills were adequate. There was nothing really to stop me from going wherever I wanted back in the day. I've got to think the modern, liability fraught, uphilling policies work for those skiers who didn't have the background that ones, like I, do. For those of us like that, it must be like herding cats to keep us where they want us.

[Phil]

Wow, more on the same vein. Black Mountain Expands Vertical with Side Country Options