Advice for first HF rig

[Bill Cox]

In short, as a skilled hacker who is a total noob as a ham, would I enjoy the Hermes-Lite2 to the point that I won't also want a more refined HF rig, like the FlexRadio 6400?  Or, is the Hermes-Lite2 something a hacker noob ham operator should also have, but not as their primary HF rig?

In the 1980's, I had a tech license (N6OIN, IIRC, which is owned by someone else now) and a Heathkit tube based HF rig, but was only allowed to listen on it.  I wasn't part of a radio club after leaving National Semiconductor, and playing with my HT and packet radio was not interesting enough to keep me involved.  I have my extra license now, but have never spoken over an HF rig of my own.

So, I've ordered the FlexRadio 6400 with the builtin antenna tuner, but it will take 6 to 10 weeks before they ship it.  I can still cancel, and order a Hermes-Lite2 instead.  Will I regret having the FlexRadio 6400 after coming up to speed on the Hermes-Lite2?

Thanks,

Bill

[Chris Moore]

Hi Bill - 

FWIW my first ‘big’ radio was an Icom 7610. On the recommendation of K5WH I then picked up a HL2 as I wanted something I could ‘tinker’ with to a greater extent.  I pretty quickly sold the 7610 as I enjoyed the HL2 so much.  I’ve used it at home, in the car, camping, in contests, with a RPi, on my iPhone with N6YWUs app, experimenting with antennas and low signal modes - the list goes on. 

I also enjoy experimenting with PureSignal and the recovered SSB audio using the NR2 wdsp library is sooo much nicer than the Icom was.

So as an IT guy that wants to mess around with the software side and dabble with the electronics the HL2 is awesome.  You might just want to consider if you want an amp to run higher power, and if 6m is important to you.  If you are on the fence you could get the HL2 first and then make the call.

Chris

AG5RR / VK3ICM

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 7, 2021, at 11:01 AM, Bill Cox <waywa...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[ron.ni...@gmail.com]

For skilled software hacking, the amount of open source resources available for the HL2 is a great starting point.  

I looked at a few snippets of the HL2's manufacturing test code, and from there (after lots of trial and error... mostly errors :-) ending up writing my own mostly complete transceiver app for the HL2 in a completely different programming language (Swift for iOS).  Learned some new DSP algorithms in the process.

Not sure how open the API is that's offered by Flex, but with the HL2, you can even mod the FPGA gateware if you want.  And a complete HL2 cost less than some of the accessories that one might buy for the Flex.  

The most recent HL2 I ordered arrived after exactly 1 week.

Highly recommended for skilled software hacking.

73,

Ron

n6ywu

[Brian Holmes]

I have had more smiles per dollar on the HL2 than any other radio.  Period.  

Have ordered a Hardrock 50 Amplifier kit for it and with that, it will replace three generations of HF radio in my shack (well, I’ll keep those for now😊). 

I am also going to build transverters for at least 6 and 2 meters as well to extend the fun.  

Sent from my mobile device. 

+1 (416) 419-3161

On Jun 6, 2021, at 11:48 PM, ron.ni...@gmail.com <ron.ni...@gmail.com> wrote:

For skilled software hacking, the amount of open source resources available for the HL2 is a great starting point.  

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[Steve Haynal]

Hi Bill,

You may want to contact some of the FlexRadio owners in this group. For example,

https://groups.google.com/g/hermes-lite/c/95-D39tePtM/m/91L03fsbAAAJ

You can search for FlexRadio via the web interface at groups.google.com/g/hermes-lite

I use the HL2 as my every day radio. In fact, I have no other radio. My uses are pretty specific though, mainly FT-8/WSPR at 5W.

73,

Steve

kf7o

[Marcos X]

I would have first calmly tried the hermes 2, and then I would have known if I like it, I believe that the software that handles the 6400 is the same, and that is what you are going to handle. It depends on each one, hl2 plus amifier is equal to 6400, but much cheaper and basically it will vary very little with the 6400

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[Marc OLANIE]

Hi Bill

 

I think Ron summed it up perfectly. If you're more of a hacker than a Ham, you need a totally free hardware and software base. And the Flex family is not, at least not « fully » open.

 

With the HL2, on the hardware side, you have a lot of hacking possibilities in the EER domain, in modifying the frontend to play with nyquist zones, building coherent receiver networks or radiointerferometers…

 

On the software side, as  you have access to both the client software code and the gateware, sky is the limit: sigint, broadband demodulation - look at GNU Radio for example - vector  network analyze, cognitive networks....

 

While some of these experiments are possible in the open HPSDR environment, they are difficult, if not impossible, with a Flex architecture.

 

In addition, the initial investment is quite low. When you have done the trick with your hermeslite, nothing prevents you from moving to more powerful platforms without losing the assets of the hpsdr realm: 14 and 16 bit Red Pitaya boards, Hermes or Angelia 16 bit dual ADC systems (Anan boards)... And always an open gateware, published electronics, hackable hardware...

 

Hacking is a full time job… don’t spend your time with closed and limited architectures 😃

 

73’

Marc f6itu

 

 

 

De : herme...@googlegroups.com <herme...@googlegroups.com> De la part de Bill Cox
Envoyé : lundi 7 juin 2021 02:42
À : Hermes-Lite <herme...@googlegroups.com>
Objet : Advice for first HF rig

--

[Bill Cox]

Well, crud.  I'm simply going to have to order both.  I work for Google and my sock has doubled in the last year.  I'm a huge prima donna.   Ed Fong of awesome antenna fame told me that, and he is right.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/hermes-lite/DM6PR01MB46362F8BE39D2DCC4E9CFA95E3389%40DM6PR01MB4636.prod.exchangelabs.com.

[Bill Cox]

I've ordered the Hermes Lite2.  I am looking forward to some real hacking!

[jason kitchens]

Hi Bill, that is always the answer.

Why settle for one when you have both!

I don't think you will be disappointed in the way either one works.

Cheers and 73!

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/hermes-lite/581004cf-c4f2-4641-967c-3c00306bdf7bn%40googlegroups.com.

[jason kitchens]

Oh and BTW.

Did makerfabs show there was current stock?

Did you order all three components?

The HL2, N2ADR board and enclosure?

[Ulf Tjerneld]

The HL2 did replace my 7600 as a daily driver and I sold the latter. I’m mostly running it barefoot. But I’m in the process of building a 100W PA to go with it. Also looking into building transverters. That being said, I’d still would like a ”big” radio to run an occasional SSB QSO and to turn some big knobs. Therefore I’m looking into getting a 90’s vintage rig like the FT1000MP.  But I’m not interested in shelling out 2000-4000 Euros for a bigger machine.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

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[Bill Cox]

Yes, there seem to be units in stock.  I bought the rado board, filter board, and the enclosure, for just over $300.  I've gotten an email saying a package should arrive around June 15th, which I assume is this order.  Apparently it ships from China?

Bill

[Bill Cox]

On Tue, Jun 8, 2021 at 12:47 PM Ulf Tjerneld <u...@sm0nor.com> wrote:

The HL2 did replace my 7600 as a daily driver and I sold the latter. I’m mostly running it barefoot. But I’m in the process of building a 100W PA to go with it. Also looking into building transverters. That being said, I’d still would like a ”big” radio to run an occasional SSB QSO and to turn some big knobs. Therefore I’m looking into getting a 90’s vintage rig like the FT1000MP.  But I’m not interested in shelling out 2000-4000 Euros for a bigger machine.

If you can do that, I'd like to try, too.  I've cancelled my FlexRadio order.  They'd hate me as a customer anyway.  Apple did: they bricked my original iPhone when they detected I was messing with their baseband firmware.  I won't buy Apple products any more.

Well, now I've got some money to spend on toys for my HF2!  I'll go buy an ATU.  What kind of PA are you building?  I am also interested in transverters, at least one for 2 meters.  I have a Yeasu FT VX-6, which is great for what it is designed to do, but for my base station, any device I cannot use through a computer seems lame.  I don't listen to my local radio's repeater much, simply because I can't pipe the sound into the headphones I already wear while working, and my wife doesn't want to hear it.

Bill

[Ulf Tjerneld]

I’m building this: RFPowerTools (google.com) by WA2EUJ. It’s not a full kit like the Hardrock. More like a set of modules. But fairly easy to build.

/Ulf – SM0NOR

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Bill Cox
Sent: den 8 juni 2021 22:45
To: Ulf Tjerneld
Cc: jason kitchens; Hermes-Lite
Subject: Re: Advice for first HF rig

 

On Tue, Jun 8, 2021 at 12:47 PM Ulf Tjerneld <u...@sm0nor.com> wrote:

Bill

 

[Bill Cox]

Nice!  My wife is thrilled I've cancelled my $2,400 FlexRadio order, and I'm already happier, even without having my HF2 yet.  My future setup so far looks like:

• HL2 from Makerfabs, including shipping: $324
• LDG Electronics AT-200 PROII 200W automatic antenna tuner: Gigaparts $240
  
• Rig Expert AA-55 ZOOM antenna: Gigaparts $265
  
• Astron RS-35M-AP power supply: Gigaparts $240

So, just over $1,000 so far.  I could have gotten a cheaper power supply, but this one can power a 100W HF amp in the future.  The antenatal tuner, like the HL2, is controllable remotely, and I've installed Quisk on my Linux laptop.  I'm thrilled that the HL2 and Quisk are open-source and hackable.  The reason I picked the off-center fed dipole antenna was that it is multi-band, and my backyard has one tall tree, not in the center.  The lot appears to be a good fit for this antenna, where the ends need to only be 10' off the ground, but the center should be over 40'.  I may regret it when I find out how much QRM I'm dealing with.

[J P Watters]

There is a project that you can build to operate without a computer.

It is designed around a Teensy Arduino Processor. 

I can be built with up to a 10 in screen.

K7MDL2/KEITHSDR: Teensy4.X with PJRC audio card Arduino based SDR Radio project.

keit...@groups.io | Home

..jpw J P Watters

KC9KKO

Morris, IL USA

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[Bill Cox]

Nice!  I'm glued to my computer, wearing headphones, most of the time, so I'll start using my laptop, but it is great to see that there are hackable remote controllers.

I read some of the HardRock reviews, and I'm sold.  So, I've added to my list:

• HardRock-50 50W HF amplifier: HobbyPCB $323

[Jim Ancona]

There is an automatic tuner option for the Hardrock, which would be one fewer box. I have it and it works well.

Jim

N1ADJ

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[jason kitchens]

I would 2nd the ATU option.

The kits are fairly easy to assemble and would only add a couple of hours if my memory is correct.

I installed one in my HR50 and have been surprised with it's tuning ability.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/hermes-lite/CAKYY9AKruxsdDT_SGKXe7fJa%2Bhu1np_oKQ_8QK9cCW9rB0xkFg%40mail.gmail.com.

[Karl Heinz Kremer]

Get the ATU for the HR50 - even if you are. It planning on using it,it is the only way to get on 60m with the HR50. 

Karl Heinz - K5KHK 

On Jun 9, 2021, at 1:10 PM, jason kitchens <jasonmk...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Steve Haynal]

Hi Bill,

Instead of the AA-55 ZOOM antenna analyzer, I recommend the nanoVNA:

https://nanovna.com/

You can find it for under $60 on amazon, ebay or ali express. Plus you have full access to the source if you want to hack:

https://github.com/ttrftech/NanoVNA

I have one and have been very impressed, especially when using the external software:

https://github.com/NanoVNA-Saver/nanovna-saver

73,

Steve

kf7o

[Bill Cox]

Dang my impulsive buying!  I've already ordered an ATU.  Should I ship it back to Gigaparts and buy the built-in ATU for the HardRock50?  Also, I've already received the AA-55 ZOOM antenna analyzer, so I should stick with that, right?

Thanks,

Bill

[jason kitchens]

I think we've answered this question before.

Buy both!

Seriously tho, I would send the LDG back or keep it as a backup at this point.

I think you may end up in the same boat I am, in that I have more radio equipment that I have time to operate.

Or use the LDG with the HL2/HR50 and if you later on down the road go portable with the HR50 buy the tuner and install it then.

The integration between the HR and the LDG may be lacking but that shouldn't be a show stopper.

I bought my HR50 used and added the ATU later.

Still only took a few hours.

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[Bill Cox]

Thanks for the advice.  I bought the HR ATU.  I'll decide to keep or return the stand-alone unit when it arrives.  There are worse thinks than having a stand-alone remote-controlled 200W antenna tuner.  If I stick with the hobby, it is sure to be handy one day.

[Brock Nanson]

I've been away from these pages... this thread had the suspense of a good novel... will he buy the Flex or not?!  ;-)

I was relieved to see that you didn't in the end.

I knew I wanted to get into the SDR world, so ordered the HL2 earlier this year.  There was a delay while they got around to doing another production run and while I was waiting, a deal on a lightly used 6400 came my way.  I went for it, then ordered the ATU (another delay).  The HL2 arrived around the same time as the Flex, so I was learning both in parallel.

My understanding is that the 6400 and 6600 are essentially the same as the 6500 that was discontinued in '17.  So on the RF side, the 6400 isn't anything new or advanced and is really just tweaks on 2013 technology.  The software/firmware is what's probably more important though... and... well... the FlexRadio SmartSDR software is simply a hot mess.

They sold me the ATU, while knowing full well that their software was broken at least as far back as May of '20 and wouldn't operate it reliably.  And they did it without blushing. Believe me, it was flakey.  When the fix finally arrived (last month), they rolled it out to V3 first (that you can pay to upgrade to from V2, which is still supported, just not as quickly).  It eventually arrived for my V2 firmware and seemed to work, however, another bug fix was rolled out a week or two later.  Why?  Because the tightly integrated remote capability that appears to be the only real feature separating Flex from the competition, broke.  Broke BAD.  They apparently didn't appreciate the deprecation of some old .NET TLS support and the system just dropped dead days before CQ WPX.  To me, this is like ignoring Y2k a couple of decades ago and is rather shocking... there were some pretty choice comments from the serious contesters - LOL!

Ironically, I have stuck mostly with Thetis for my HL2. To the best of my knowledge, it's a descendant of the PowerSDR software that Flex developed for their pre-6000 radios.  The 6000's do the heavy lifting internally now, with SmartSDR on the computer simply displaying the output and providing the 'knobs'.  Therefore, PowerSDR was probably a support burden FlexRadio didn't want and thus it was released to the Open Source community.  Or so I gather.  Bottom line, I think it's seen more development and bug fixes since it was released than it probably did within FlexRadio in the later years. It's not perfect, but it works and there are people actively making it better. 

And did I mention... if you want to run macOS SmartSDR software?  You buy it from a private developer in Germany who wrote a version using the Flex APIs.  So Windows comes from Flex and is included in the price of the radio, but macOS is purchased from a private developer.  Incredibly, the German developer has done a better job of it too, according to macOS users I've talked to!  I don't think I've ever seen software for one product come from different sources like this before...for anything.  Very weird, and makes me question the commitment Flex has to the Ham community.  I suspect the military market has captured their attention.

So, for me, the only real advantages of the 6400 against the HL2 are the QRO output, optional integrated ATU and 6m without a transverter.  Add an amplifier and ATU to the HL2 , and you have a worthy competitor at a fraction of the price...with the bonus of a variety of software options to choose from, and develop.  I'm using the Flex quite a bit right now, because I'm wanting to operate from the couch (ATU advantage) and also see what I can do during the summer solstice 6m season.  But ultimately, I think I'll add an ATU and amplifier to my HL2 and sell the Flex.  The HL2 is just more interesting and fun.  And the HL2 community is more about experimenting with the technology than contesting, which better fits my interests.

I don't think you made a mistake cancelling that order!!

Brock

VA7AV

[Shirley Márquez Dúlcey]

PowerSDR was originally open source, from way back in the days when FlexRadio created its first product the SDR-1000. That was a QRP SDR that used a quadrature sampling detector (QSD) and quadrature sampling exciter (QSE), and depended on a sound card to do the audio sampling. Usually people bought an M-Audio Delta-44 PCI sound card with it; unfortunately, PCI slots are now obsolete, making it difficult to use the original SDR-1000 as delivered in a modern PC.

Time marched on and FlexRadio introduced other radios. The newer models integrated an audio interface into the radio, eliminating the need for the sound card and replacing it with a FireWire interface to the computer. (That turned out to be an unfortunate choice because computers stopped coming with FireWire ports, though the situation is not yet as dire as the one with PCI.) These products still used the QSD/QSE architecture; they include the Flex-1500, Flex-3000, and the Flex-5000 series.

But meanwhile, other SDR makers came along and used the PowerSDR software that Flex had developed. So Flex first started taking features out of PowerSDR that were needed to support SDRs from other companies, then they closed the source of the last couple of updates to PowerSDR, and after that they switched to a new closed source application, SmartSDR. From their point of view, they didn't want to subsidize other hardware manufacturers by allowing them to use their software.

Finally, FlexRadio moved to a new architecture of direct down conversion (DDC) and direct up conversion (DUC) in the Flex-6000 series. Those are the ones where more of the processing is moved inside the radio, as it includes an FPGA to decimate the signals from the DDC before sending them to the computer. (The Hermes and Hermes-Lite also do that.) Some signal processing is still done by the SmartSDR software. You can also buy a front panel that takes the place of a computer, providing knobs and buttons to control the rig and incorporating its own digital signal processing to take the place of what is done in SmartSDR. The older PowerSDR software has no support for the Flex-6000 series.

The Flex rigs do have an ADC/DAC with more bit depth than the one in the Hermes-Lite. That means, at least in theory, more receiver dynamic range and therefore better performance in crowded band conditions, such as during major contests. The specs are more directly compatible with the full Hermes rather than the Hermes-Lite. That hardware doesn't come cheap; the commercialized version of the Hermes concept from Apache Labs is in the same price class as a Flex rig.

Other developers have taken the final open source version of PowerSDR and produced versions that have better support for non-Flex hardware. One notable change is the fact that PowerSDR required all of its audio I/O to come from a single device, necessitating the use of software such as Virtual Audio Cable (VAC) if you wanted to use it with two separate audio devices rather than a single multichannel interface like the Delta-44; some of the independent forks like PowerSDR-IQ allow the audio device to be selected separately for each input and output. These updated versions of PowerSDR have also added support for hardware communication with additional radios that the software from Flex did not. But aside from support of additional hardware, nobody has done any significant development on PowerSDR that I am aware of.
  

[Brock Nanson]

That fills in plenty of blanks for me - thanks!

[Bill Cox]

+1, that history is very helpful.  Thanks everyone for talking me out of the FlexRadio.  I'm having much more fun just hacking the HL2.

For example, I didn't want to buy a router to pluch in the HL2, so I setup my Ubuntu laptop as a NAT with its own DHCP server, and conect the HL2 directly to my laptop's Ethernet port.  I brought the HL2 with a cheap 12V switching power suply, and a dummy load with my on vacation.  The whole setup is quite portable.

Not that I know much about ham radio, but IMO, this, is how ham radio should be: hackable hardware, hackable software, and even hackable gate-ware (the FPGA).  Quisk has a high learning curve fo me, but I'm enjoying climbing that curve.  So far, I only transmit into a dummy load, but I can pick up AM from the HL2 on an old AM rradio, and the full-duplex mode (FDX key) lets me receive the signal I send into the dummy load.  Very cool so far!

[Bill Cox AI6SJ]

Here's my new setup so far.  The HL2 and HR50 both work as expected with the dummy load.  Now if my antenna would arrive...

[Bill Cox AI6SJ]

This is just a more fun picture because I'm broadcasting into the dummy load.  This is very enjoyable so far.

[Roger David Powers]

Wow, Shirley, that is a great history!

I'll add a few tidbits I've found over the years.

If you want to read about what happened in the time just before Flex started and the technology they developed in the early days, read Gerald Youngblood's four part series in QEX found at https://sites.google.com/site/thesdrinstitute/A-Software-Defined-Radio-for-the-Masses ...

One thing I found pretty fascinating is that you can see the heritage of PowerSDR in those articles from 2002.  The GUI elements still seen in PowerSDR and Thetis are pretty clearly traceable to the Visual Basic implementation of 2002!   One thing I really value from this list is seeing how so much software, SparkSDR, linhpsdr and pihpsdr to name a few, are showing excellence in GUI design and not just rolling out the same early 2000s era visual elements, yet doing so in open software and multi platform way.  It's really hard to get all that right, it's so impressive that people are coming up with such great software, it's so great the HL2 platform is so platform and software agnostic!

As mentioned above, Flex 6000 is its own beast.  It doesn't import or export I/Q data, it exports audio and video content that is already fully processed, and imports audio to be processed.  It uses a DoD originated format called Vita 49 to do this.  It has some APIs to make using it a bit easier but IIRC they were pretty Windows oriented so I'm not sure how the Mac port was done.  It has APIs that let you load code that can modulate and demodulate waveforms on the the box, which is useful but of course not as wide open as HL2 is.

Flex has made some decisions to protect its commercial interests over the years, but I'm fine with that.  Our hobby is tiny compared to many others.  They do need to make money to stay in business.  It is very hard to monetize something that is at its heart a hobby.  I'm glad they have found a way to survive and even thrive over these many years.  Currently they are being greatly impacted by the various chip shortages, and a lot of their energy is focused on some huge government contracts they have secured.  They say this new technology will flow back into their amateur radio products, and when it does I'm sure it'll be darn impressive.  I'm also sure it'll cost more than I'm willing to spend, but that's fine too, HL2 does everything I want and more.

Regards,

RDP

https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/hermes-lite/5d84c53f-a8cc-4388-b242-eeb161484de0n%40googlegroups.com

.

[Shirley Márquez Dúlcey]

Flex has two APIs for the Flex 6000 series. One uses .NET and is Windows-only, though now that .NET 5.0 and above are cross-platform that could change in the future. A second one works over TCP/IP and can be used by any system that has a full network stack. The Mac application uses the latter.

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[vis...@gmail.com]

I have never used the FlexRadio rig, so I can't compare.  That said, I own and use an HL2 and am very happy with it as my primary rig.  I am working on adding some power to it (as others have mentioned) to get a bit more reach, but the HL2 and an amp is not a huge investment and keeps everything open for you to play with.  I think the open source aspect of the radio by itself is worth a lot if you are like me and like to get into the guts of things.  Add to that the fact that this is a highly capable little radio, for not a lot of money, and doesn't take much effort to get on the air for the first time, and I can't imagine you being unhappy with it.

Another point I have not seen here is that the technology is constantly improving, so a succession of gradually improving, inexpensive, open source radios gives you flexibility that a single, expensive, not fully open snapshot of the technology might not.

Just my $0.02.

Eric Lund

AC0OP