Interfacing to Hardrock-50

[Jim Ancona]

Hi,

Since my HL2 will soon be on its way, I've started to think about how I'll use it in my shack. I have a Hardrock-50 amp/antenna tuner[1]. I've read Daniel Estévez, EA4GPZ's write-up[2], which gives a good overview of the options. I'd like to have the amplifier automatically switch bands whenever the HL2 does, so I'm leaning towards the approach Daniel mentions of using an Arduino to translate I2C commands from the HL2 to serial or USB commands for the HR50.

I'm a long-time ham and software guy with some basic electronics skills. I assembled my HR50 without trouble and I've designed and build simple analog and digital projects in the past. But I'm new to the HL2 and Arduinos, so thanks in advance for being patient with my questions.

As I understand it, I2C is a serial bus and the HL2 uses it to connect to the N2ADR filter board. If I add an Arduino to the I2C bus, will it see commands being sent to the filter board? Or does each device only see messages directed to it? I ask because I'm assuming that the HL2 has to send band change commands to the filter board. If the Arduino can see those it can send the equivalent command to the HR50. Otherwise, would I have to modify the HL2 gateware to send band change commands to the Arduino as well? Or am I misunderstanding things in a big way (quite likely, I'm afraid). 

I hope these questions make some sense and that someone can begin to enlighten me, or at least point me to where I should be researching this.

Thanks again,

Jim N1ADJ

1 - https://hobbypcb.com/products/hf-radio/hardrock-50-hf-power-amp

2 - https://destevez.net/2018/01/interfacing-the-hardrock-50-hf-amplifier-to-the-hermes-lite-2/

[Gerard Sexton]

Hi Jim.

The I2C bus does use addressing so that multiple devices on a bus can receive/send targeted messages. However you could program your micro to act as a slave with the same address as the filter board. You could then process the messages from the HL2 as required. Both the filter board and your micro will send the appropriate acknowledge bits but as this is done by pulling the SDA line low it will not cause any issues.

Just don't respond to any read requests. 

Regards 

Gerard 

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[Steve Haynal]

Hi Jim,

You can "snoop" the i2c bus as Gerard suggests. There is the DB13 connector on the HL2 to facilitate this, even if the N2ADR filter board is attached.

How far will your host PC be from the HL2? Many times it is close enough that you can use an inexpensive USB-UART cable and control the HR50 directly from the host PC. Quisk and other software have support for this.

If like Daniel, you want to operate both remotely from a distance, you may consider a secondary ethernet connection just to talk to the HR50. This is what Daniel did with the BeagleBone. If you don't have a SBC free for the job, I'd consider the Raspberry Pi Zero with Wifi:

https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/raspberry-pi-zero-w/

73,

Steve

kf7o

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[Ulf Tjerneld]

HI Jim and All,

I will follow this thread closely and encourage everyone that like me are not electronic engineers. I have been looking on the Hermes Lite for a while wondering if it demanded too much of electronic and software programming skills. But Now, I’m also waiting for my soon to arrive HL2. My plan is to build a base amateur radio station around it with rig control, all mode capabilities, switching and perhaps dual receive.

And like you @Jim Ancona I have a Hardrock PA that I’m planning to use with the HL2, eventuelly driving a big amp….

I’m looking forward to take part of all implementations and I’m eager to learn more!

 

Exciting times ahead!

 

73’s

 

Ulf – SM0NOR

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

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[dsol...@wi.rr.com]

I am also planning on using my HL2 with an external amplifier.  I will not be using a Hard Rock 50, but the interface requirements are similar. My amplifier is a homebrew dual BLF188XR LDMOS,   It will easily drive to 1.5KW with the output power from an HL2, without the need for a Hard Rock 50 as a driver.

I currently am using another homebrew amplifier with an Arduino based controller.  I wrote software that reads the band data from my Elecraft KX3 via the serial port.  My plan with the HL2 was to use PowerSDR and use the CAT port to get the frequency data.

For those of you who don't want to develop your own microcontroller for this interface, RemoteQth offers one that would work https://remoteqth.com/arduino-band-decoder.php 

Using an external band decoder like this will provide a lot of flexibility if I want to use a different radio with the amplifier, our if I want to use the HL2 with a different amplifier,

73,

Don

K9AQ

[rent...@comcast.net]

I too have a Hardrock-50, actually two.  I recently bought a basket case HR-50 which had been hit by lightning and resurrected it, this was quite the challenge!  I bought the second unit expressly for SDR adventures.  Watching with interest for the "best" approach!

73,

Robert, WA2T

[martin...@gmail.com]

G'Day all,

This thread may be useful to you all

https://groups.google.com/d/topic/hermes-lite/q0QmcCKzj8o/discussion

I2C "pass through" is a great feature of Quisk (thanks Jim!) that I hope other SDR software developers will use..

73

Martin

VK7MA

[Daniel Estévez]

El 29/4/19 a las 4:49, Jim Ancona escribió:

> Hi,
>
> Since my HL2 will soon be on its way, I've started to think about how
> I'll use it in my shack. I have a Hardrock-50 amp/antenna tuner[1]. I've
> read Daniel Estévez, EA4GPZ's write-up[2], which gives a good overview
> of the options. I'd like to have the amplifier automatically switch
> bands whenever the HL2 does, so I'm leaning towards the approach Daniel
> mentions of using an Arduino to translate I2C commands from the HL2 to
> serial or USB commands for the HR50.
>
> I'm a long-time ham and software guy with some basic electronics skills.
> I assembled my HR50 without trouble and I've designed and build simple
> analog and digital projects in the past. But I'm new to the HL2 and
> Arduinos, so thanks in advance for being patient with my questions.
>
> As I understand it, I2C is a serial bus and the HL2 uses it to connect
> to the N2ADR filter board. If I add an Arduino to the I2C bus, will it
> see commands being sent to the filter board? Or does each device only
> see messages directed to it? I ask because I'm assuming that the HL2 has
> to send band change commands to the filter board. If the Arduino can see
> those it can send the equivalent command to the HR50. Otherwise, would I
> have to modify the HL2 gateware to send band change commands to the
> Arduino as well? Or am I misunderstanding things in a big way (quite
> likely, I'm afraid). 
>
> I hope these questions make some sense and that someone can begin to
> enlighten me, or at least point me to where I should be researching this.

Hi Jim,

As Gerard has said, the Arduino can act as an I2C bus slave, and then
translate I2C commands from the HL2 into serial commands for the Hardrock.

The way I've finally implemented band switching (I think this wasn't
mentioned in my write-up) is to use a Beaglebone Black connected to the
Hardrock by TTL serial (taking care with voltages, since the Hardrock is
5V and the Beaglebone is 3.3V). I tried USB first, but for some reason
this introduced a lot of HF noise in the shack, which was picked up by
the HL2.

The Beaglebone Black is connected to the network by Ethernet, so I can
log in by ssh, open a serial terminal to the Hardrock, and start writing
commands.

All this could be automated by modifying Quisk (which is the SDR
software I normally use with the HL2) to send the commands to the
Beaglebone Black when I change bands. I could even read the temperature
of the Hardrock periodically and display it somewhere in the Quisk
window. But I've been quite lazy and I haven't implemented this automation.

73,

Dani EA4GPZ.

[Jim Ancona]

Thanks for the feedback Gerard and Steve.

On Sun, Apr 28, 2019 at 11:52 PM Steve Haynal <softerh...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Jim,

You can "snoop" the i2c bus as Gerard suggests. There is the DB13 connector on the HL2 to facilitate this, even if the N2ADR filter board is attached.

Yes, this sounds like a straightforward way to do what I want. If I understand correctly, my device can register as a slave with device ID 0x20 and receive the band-change commands being sent to the filter board.

 

How far will your host PC be from the HL2? Many times it is close enough that you can use an inexpensive USB-UART cable and control the HR50 directly from the host PC. Quisk and other software have support for this.

I'd like the host PC to be able to be remote. Right now my use case is working FT8 from the couch using the rig in the other room, but more remote cases may follow later. :-) 

If like Daniel, you want to operate both remotely from a distance, you may consider a secondary ethernet connection just to talk to the HR50. This is what Daniel did with the BeagleBone. If you don't have a SBC free for the job, I'd consider the Raspberry Pi Zero with Wifi:

https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/raspberry-pi-zero-w/

I have a spare Raspberry Pi Model B I could use, but it seems like overkill for this. Plus I'd like to experiment with Arduino. 

Thanks,

Jim N1ADJ

73,

Steve

kf7o

On Sunday, April 28, 2019 at 8:36:52 PM UTC-7, Gerard Sexton wrote:

Hi Jim.

The I2C bus does use addressing so that multiple devices on a bus can receive/send targeted messages. However you could program your micro to act as a slave with the same address as the filter board. You could then process the messages from the HL2 as required. Both the filter board and your micro will send the appropriate acknowledge bits but as this is done by pulling the SDA line low it will not cause any issues.

Just don't respond to any read requests. 

Regards 

Gerard 

On Mon, 29 Apr. 2019, 12:50 Jim Ancona, <j...@anconafamily.com> wrote:

Hi,

Since my HL2 will soon be on its way, I've started to think about how I'll use it in my shack. I have a Hardrock-50 amp/antenna tuner[1]. I've read Daniel Estévez, EA4GPZ's write-up[2], which gives a good overview of the options. I'd like to have the amplifier automatically switch bands whenever the HL2 does, so I'm leaning towards the approach Daniel mentions of using an Arduino to translate I2C commands from the HL2 to serial or USB commands for the HR50.

I'm a long-time ham and software guy with some basic electronics skills. I assembled my HR50 without trouble and I've designed and build simple analog and digital projects in the past. But I'm new to the HL2 and Arduinos, so thanks in advance for being patient with my questions.

As I understand it, I2C is a serial bus and the HL2 uses it to connect to the N2ADR filter board. If I add an Arduino to the I2C bus, will it see commands being sent to the filter board? Or does each device only see messages directed to it? I ask because I'm assuming that the HL2 has to send band change commands to the filter board. If the Arduino can see those it can send the equivalent command to the HR50. Otherwise, would I have to modify the HL2 gateware to send band change commands to the Arduino as well? Or am I misunderstanding things in a big way (quite likely, I'm afraid). 

I hope these questions make some sense and that someone can begin to enlighten me, or at least point me to where I should be researching this.

Thanks again,

Jim N1ADJ

1 - https://hobbypcb.com/products/hf-radio/hardrock-50-hf-power-amp

2 - https://destevez.net/2018/01/interfacing-the-hardrock-50-hf-amplifier-to-the-hermes-lite-2/

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[Jim Ancona]

Daniel,

Thanks for the reply and your informative article. Ideally, I'd like a solution that's remote and doesn't require support from the radio software. We'll see if I'm able to succeed in getting that.

Jim

[Jim Ancona]

Now that I have my HL2 set up, I've been experimenting with this project. I have an Arduino Uno and I can use it to control the Hardrock-50 using its serial interface. I can also read I2C commands sent to the N2ADR filter board at address 0x20. Not surprisingly, the values sent match the filter configuration vales set up in Quisk:

Band  Command

160M  0000001

 80M  1000010

 60M  1000100

 40M  1000100

 30M  1001000

 20M  1001000

 17M  1010000

 15M  1010000

 12M  1100000

 10M  1100000

But in order to set the proper band on the HR50, I need to be able to distinguish between bands that use the same filter configuration (e.g. 60 and 40, 30 and 20, etc.). I'm assuming that bit 6, the high bit in the table above, controls the high pass filter, while bits 0 through 5 control the various low-pass filters. So I had a couple of ideas:

1. Perhaps I could use multiple LPFs on a band to distinguish between bands. To distinguish between 60M and 40M, I'd configure 60M to 1000100 (normal 60_40 LPF) and 40M to 1100100 (60_40 and 12_10 LPFs both enabled.) Would having two LPFs engaged at the same time cause a problem? 

2. I could also just disable the HPF on one of the bands. As long as I don't have strong local signals below 2 MHz that shouldn't cause a problem. (I would have to use this approach to distinguish 12M and 10M, because there's no "extra" filter to engage there.

Thanks in advance for any feedback on these approaches, or any other clever ideas folks might have.

Jim N1ADJ

 

[Steve Haynal]

Hi Jim,

You ideas sound reasonable for doing what you want without much modification. This "J16" connection was really meant to interface just to a simple filter board. There has been past discussion on this list to encode these bits to represent more bands:

0000001 == 160 M

0000010 == 80 M

0000011 == 60 M

and so on, but that won't work with the N2ADR filter board, plus requires a decoder IC.

There is also an 8th bit (see U1 pin 19, P13 on the N2ADR filter board schematic) that is currently unused. We could possibly use that to indicate the low/high band for each filter selection, but that requires updates to software, finding space in the protocol, and updates to the gateware.

It may be easier to just not use the i2c and instead run another serial connection from your host to the HL2. I've used inexpensive adapters to do this in the past. There is a link on another thread.

Another option if you want to start modifying the gateware would be to send data out over DB12 on the HL2. For example, apollo or alex filter settings could be sent out of those free pins.

73,

Steve

kf7o

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[Martin Richardson]

Hi Jim,

I use the I2C bus "pass through" option in quisk. In the hardware conf file I have added the following code for my amplifier using the address 0x21

This way I can differentiate between N2ADR filter selection and the filter in my amplifier. 

  def ChangeBand(self, band):
    # band is a string: "60", "40", "WWV", etc.
    BaseHardware.ChangeBand(self, band)
    self.band = band
    self.ChangeBandFilters()
    self.SetTxLevel()
    #Below added by VK7MA to change external amplifier band filter.
    ex_i2caddr = 0x21
    ex_iodir = 0x00
    ex_ioreg = 0x00
    ex_gpio = 0x09
    hl2_bus_id = 0x7d
    self.pc2hermeslitewritequeue[0:5] = hl2_bus_id,0x06,ex_i2caddr,ex_ioreg,ex_iodir
    self.WriteQueue(1)
    if band == "160":
      ex_value = 0b00000001
    elif band == "80":
      ex_value = 0b00000010
    elif band == "60":
      ex_value = 0b00000100
    elif band == "40":
      ex_value = 0b00000100
    elif band == "30":
      ex_value = 0b00001000
    elif band == "20":
      ex_value = 0b00001000
    elif band == "17":
      ex_value = 0b00001000
    elif band == "15":
      ex_value = 0b00010000
    elif band == "12":
      ex_value = 0b00010000
    elif band == "10":
      ex_value = 0b00010000
    else:
      ex_value = 0b00000000
    self.pc2hermeslitewritequeue[0:5] = hl2_bus_id,0x06,ex_i2caddr,ex_gpio,ex_value
    self.WriteQueue(1)

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[Jonas Sanamon]

Hi Steve,

I was also looking at the unused 8th bit for possible autotuner tune trigger :-)

Would it be possible to have the gateware send J16 bits to I2C address 0x20 as before + also send the specific band encoded to another i2c address? 

Best Regards,

Jonas - SM4VEY

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[James Ahlstrom]

Hello Jim,

1. Using multiple low pass filters to distinguish bands will distort the pass band, so I don't recommend it.  But the farther apart the bands are, the less trouble it will cause. So you could test it to see what happens.

2. Disabling the high pass filter bit would work at the expense of not having a high pass filter.

The seven filter bits are sent in C2 for address zero.  The extra bit in C2 is used to indicate Class E in the original protocol. Since HL2 does not have class E we could code an extra bit here. Unfortunately, the extra bit is bit zero. Quisk and other Hermes software sends the filter bits in C2 bits one through seven, and a zero first (bit zero) bit. This shows up on the filter board as bits zero through six. So we could move the extra bit to bit seven on the filter board (test point P13) but this is a hack.

The real way to do this is to implement an extra communication protocol in your Quisk hardware file to send whatever data you need to wherever you need it, as Martin is doing. Quisk can handle I2C, serial port and Ethernet as well as other protocols. That was a design goal of Quisk from the beginning. Having said that, I am still willing to modify Quisk to send extra data, but that will also require changes to the FPGA firmware on the HL2.

Jim

N2ADR

[Jim Ancona]

I like this idea, although I think it would have to send the frequency, because the HL2 doesn’t know the band. But that would work fine for me. Is it possible?

Jim

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[Jonas Sanamon]

Hi Jim,

I was thinking along the lines of having the gateware only enabling the lowest of the possibly 2 selected filters in the J16 word to i2c 0x20 (for the bits 1-6 so the high pass filter bit is excluded), but send the full J16 word to for instance i2c 0x21 so that its possible to add another i2c to band decoder that gets the full band info without disturbing the N2ADR filter board.

I think someone with insight into the gateware has to say whether this is possible or not  (and thereby excluding myself :-) )

Best Regards,

Jonas - SM4VEY

[Jim Ancona]

Jim,

Thanks for the info on using multiple LPFs. It sounds like switching based on the HPF filter bit would be safer, assuming I don't need the HPF. If I were to using multiple LPFs, I'm assuming the pass band distortion would be worse near the cutoff frequency and worse if I use adjacent LPFs. So to distinguish between 60M and 40M, I would use the normal filter configuration (1000100) for 40 and use 1100100 (60_40M plus 10M) for 60M. Does that make sense?

The problem with using the Quisk hardware file is that I would like to take advantage of the HL2's network connection to be able to operate without the computer next to the radio. But the HR50 only has USB and serial ports, so I'd have to add another computer in order to be able to control it remotely. 

If you think of the HR50 amplifier/tuner as part of the radio, similar to the filter board, then having the ability to switch bands via commands to the HL2 seems reasonable, at least to me.

Thanks,

Jim

N1ADJ

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[Steve Haynal]

Hi All,

If you are using Quisk, I think what you want is what VK7MA Martin Richardson shared in this thread earlier. I had forgotten about this. There is support already in the gateware to write any value to any i2c address. Martin's code is an addition to Quisk that writes full band information to i2c address 0x21. You can add another  MCP23008 device to the existing i2c bus, there are connections on the HL2 to do this. Then you can have Quisk send whatever values you like per band.

My philosophy for the gateware has been to keep everything that is possible on the software side. So I do not want to add anything that makes decisions based on frequencies, etc, as that can and should be done in software. One device to consider is this:

https://www.sparkfun.com/products/retired/9981

73,

Steve

kf7o

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[Jim Ancona]

Thanks.

On Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 12:01 AM Steve Haynal <softerh...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi All,

If you are using Quisk, I think what you want is what VK7MA Martin Richardson shared in this thread earlier. I had forgotten about this. There is support already in the gateware to write any value to any i2c address. Martin's code is an addition to Quisk that writes full band information to i2c address 0x21. You can add another  MCP23008 device to the existing i2c bus, there are connections on the HL2 to do this. Then you can have Quisk send whatever values you like per band.

I’ll take another look at this. I missed that it was possible to write to i2c this way.

My philosophy for the gateware has been to keep everything that is possible on the software side. So I do not want to add anything that makes decisions based on frequencies, etc, as that can and should be done in software. One device to consider is this:

https://www.sparkfun.com/products/retired/9981

I agree that making decisions based on frequencies in the gateware

seems like a layering violation. How do you feel about just publishing frequency changes to i2c so that listeners can take action if they choose?

Jim

N1ADJ

73,

Steve

kf7o

On Sunday, June 16, 2019 at 10:23:01 AM UTC-7, Jim Ancona N1ADJ wrote:

Jim,

Thanks for the info on using multiple LPFs. It sounds like switching based on the HPF filter bit would be safer, assuming I don't need the HPF. If I were to using multiple LPFs, I'm assuming the pass band distortion would be worse near the cutoff frequency and worse if I use adjacent LPFs. So to distinguish between 60M and 40M, I would use the normal filter configuration (1000100) for 40 and use 1100100 (60_40M plus 10M) for 60M. Does that make sense?

The problem with using the Quisk hardware file is that I would like to take advantage of the HL2's network connection to be able to operate without the computer next to the radio. But the HR50 only has USB and serial ports, so I'd have to add another computer in order to be able to control it remotely. 

If you think of the HR50 amplifier/tuner as part of the radio, similar to the filter board, then having the ability to switch bands via commands to the HL2 seems reasonable, at least to me.

Thanks,

Jim

N1ADJ

On Sun, Jun 16, 2019 at 8:28 AM James Ahlstrom <jah...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello Jim,

1. Using multiple low pass filters to distinguish bands will distort the pass band, so I don't recommend it.  But the farther apart the bands are, the less trouble it will cause. So you could test it to see what happens.

2. Disabling the high pass filter bit would work at the expense of not having a high pass filter.

The seven filter bits are sent in C2 for address zero.  The extra bit in C2 is used to indicate Class E in the original protocol. Since HL2 does not have class E we could code an extra bit here. Unfortunately, the extra bit is bit zero. Quisk and other Hermes software sends the filter bits in C2 bits one through seven, and a zero first (bit zero) bit. This shows up on the filter board as bits zero through six. So we could move the extra bit to bit seven on the filter board (test point P13) but this is a hack.

The real way to do this is to implement an extra communication protocol in your Quisk hardware file to send whatever data you need to wherever you need it, as Martin is doing. Quisk can handle I2C, serial port and Ethernet as well as other protocols. That was a design goal of Quisk from the beginning. Having said that, I am still willing to modify Quisk to send extra data, but that will also require changes to the FPGA firmware on the HL2.

Jim

N2ADR

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[James Ahlstrom]

Hello Jim,

I might be off base here (again) but if you are using HL2 with an external amp, maybe you don't need the N2ADR filter board at all. Just send the unfiltered HL2 power to the HR50. The HL2 output is fairly clean.

Then get a bare N2ADR filter board and just mount the I2C parts and no filters or relays. Then you have seven bits of whatever you want to send from Quisk, PowerSDR, Spark or other software. You don't need to have a second I2C address or write a hardware file. You are just using the usual I2C address.

Jim

N2ADR