Proposal: Stop abusing the proposal process

[Brett Neese]

pls k thanks 

Seriously though. I have to sort though all of the proposals and I have to read every one into the record. I realize this didn’t go out yet, but we agreed at the last HYH to only use the word Proposal: for finalized proposals. I submit that should extend to the seriousness of the proposals.

I’ve been the troll. I’ve done the lulz. It should be fun. This isn’t fun, it’s just making my job much harder and it doesn’t help the lab - if anything, it drives people away, which is not what we need if we want to keep our doors open.

Brett

Secretary 

[Ryan Mcdermott]

I think it’s funny and good spirited to treat these obviously funny and silly proposals as serious.  We’ve voted on all sorts of stuff in the past like boats, and it’s fun and it’s a good reminder that we’re hackers and that fun and trickery are a core part of our culture. 

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[Brett Neese]

I would like to amend my proposal to state: only one (1) joke or lulz per member per year, and you must to submit a notarized letter outlining the nature of said troll, joke or lulz notarized and apostilled and sent to to the Secretary, Champion and Vice Champion via certified mail postmarked no less than 90 (ninety) days and delivered no less the 89 (eighty nine) days prior to said joke or lulz. The board will notify you with official approval no more than 1773 seconds before  the member’s troll, joke or lulz is planned to be commence. The member must be in good standing for at least 6 months before applying for their annual dispensation of Authorized Fun.

Kind regards,

Brett

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[Sheldon McGee]

I thought it was the job of the secretary to do all that too . . . mostly because Chris did it. But nowhere does it say that any of it needs to be done. All of the "rules" of Heatsync put the process of managing the proposal on the proposer. If the proposer never brings it up at HYH it's like it never happened! That's what happened with the boat one. I get that it's nice to know what POSSIBLE at an HYH but if the proposer doesn't show up then it can't be acted on, right?

You are a volunteer. No amount of proposals can force you to work more. If it's too much, stop.

That said, I'm behind having more thought out proposals before putting up a proposal. There are guidelines around what makes a good proposal in the wiki. 

Sheldon

On Sat, Nov 15, 2025 at 6:29 PM Ryan Mcdermott <blh...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Linda Krecker]

LOL, Brett,  bravo 👏 👏 

Linda S K Brett, Ph.D.

Artist  |  Educator

Designing Art Studio

The Art Doc 

Linkedin

botan...@gmail.com

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[David Lang]

Sheldon McGee wrote:

> I thought it was the job of the secretary to do all that too . . . mostly
> because Chris did it. But nowhere does it say that any of it needs to be
> done. All of the "rules" of Heatsync put the process of managing the
> proposal on the proposer. If the proposer never brings it up at HYH it's
> like it never happened! That's what happened with the boat one. I get that
> it's nice to know what POSSIBLE at an HYH but if the proposer doesn't show
> up then it can't be acted on, right?

so what if the proposer shows up a year from now? is the proposal still live? or
is there some point that failing to show up to present it means you've abandoned
it?

David Lang

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[Sheldon McGee]

The rules are not meant to handle a case like that is my guess but I haven't read through it in awhile. I don't think going down "what if" scenarios matters for this kind of thing and I'll tell you for sure I don't think it's worth a proposal to cover every "what if" case. I also don't think it's worth making it "someone's job" either. 

That said, if someone proposes something and they pop up one day a year later then we can vote then. And the people there can vote against it with an excuse of "it's been too long and I haven't thought about it" or "oh yeah, forgot about that let's do it". Doesn't really seem like that big a deal to me. 

Sheldon

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[Ryan Mcdermott]

The actual mechanism here is that the person making the proposal has to advocate for it, and essentially introduce it at HYH

So if someone makes 10 proposals, then doesn’t show up to HYH, or does show up and doesn’t introduce them, then they’re null by default.

Proposing something here is really just a prompt for discussion about it.  Procedurally, the proposal is introduced at HYH, and only allowed a vote if it has been the required period of discussion.

So there should be 0 additional work for anybody created as a result of hacker-silliness, aside from some minor mental load wondering if hacker-silliness will extend into HYH or not.

Fret not fellow hackers!  Silliness is still allowed!

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[Rick Blake]

My recollection of the proposal process was that:

Some (or several) member(s) announced a proposal, here our Group, via email, specified sufficiently for discussion. A waiting period, meaning, iirc, the next HYH but not less than 2 weeks, shows for discussion. Either the sponsor or a designate would present it at HYH, defend it, propose or agree to amendments, it would be voted on or voted to postpone for further discussion or amendment. 

This discussion period was crucial, it allowed for input prior to HYH and a vote. 

I take all messages here with the title or lead 'proposal' to either be intended to come to HYH for a vote, or are just comic/other relief. 

Proposals were often delayed due to unavailability of the sponsor, reconsideration, or timing. It was agreed that after a period, I don't recall how long, a proposal would be considered null or abandoned, and would not longer need on the agenda for HYH.

And HYH agenda were published in advance. Even by a few days. 

We should consider being serious about the proposal process,  in how they are introduced, discussed, and decided. If this needs to be codified so be it. 

But in the past we've been the sort of community that could come together and agree to be agreeable.

If we are a community, we should recognize our common goals and purposes, seek to aid one another in pursuit of those, and above all treat each other with respect and care. 

Please, consider how this process is working, and consider how you can be of help and support towards the Labs success and growth. None if this should diminish you, but should encourage you to do more, do better, and do well. We have a unique community to build on. Let us build. 

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[Eric Ose]

Brett,

Thank you for doing so good at documenting things as secretary. I hope the additional proposal silliness has not fully demotivated you on this.

It is true that we do have a history of having some silly proposals. Right now things have just been excessive.

Shaundra even made a proposal with 30 different items.

https://groups.google.com/g/heatsynclabs/c/YVuokT50PyI/m/_EKioo0yJAAJ

I believe at some point there was an automation to list the threads with proposal in the title. Less manual work needed.

Eric Ose
Robot Ambassador

Sometimes cool things just happen, but usually you have to plan them.

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[Cprossu]

I will say April fools day has been much less fun since the Covid-19 pandemic hit.

(A sampling of my proposals/hilarious overreach)
https://groups.google.com/g/heatsynclabs/c/iKPPb2EEi8E/m/31aoxTgOJAAJ

https://groups.google.com/g/heatsynclabs/c/shAKJe8gHjg/m/wlntF53lEwAJ
https://groups.google.com/g/heatsynclabs/c/LNJdwS0Pqtc/m/xvg8y_R7BwAJ

That said, I don't know what to make of things as they are currently. Information overload for sure at the very least. I have a lot of things going in my life, and will have to take a real back seat on my volunteer work at HSL as I look towards my future with my girlfriend.

There is conflict here now where there used to be support. I remember a time that even between very dissimilar stations and people there was the utmost support and love, with the occasional quip or tongue-in-cheek fun and humor, but I am not seeing that today, and I would consider that a big problem. 

[Moheeb Zara]

Plz amend this proposal to include the banning of all fun, laughter and smiles. Also that HYH must occur at the witching hour and to increase our candle budget

[Arnob Kabir]

I think a simple fix is to not use the "Proposal:" tag when making an unserious or silly proposal. 

[Brett Neese]

This conversation has actually become quite productive. Thank you for all the constructive feedback and perspectives, especially about unwritten norms. I do plan on turning those comments into documentation so they don’t get lost here. Super useful.

I do think we should establish a common courtesy of reserving the word “Proposal” for serious, fully fleshed out proposals. I also might recommend the use of the RFC: tag for proposals that you’re still fleshing out and would like input on.

In all seriousness, I know the bylaws are weird and hyper bureaucratic about the proposal process and I do not wish to convolute them even further, if anything, we should do the opposite, but a lot of people see these emails and never respond but are definitely interested in what is happening at the lab. Helping guide people towards what is relevant for them and what is not is simply good “netiquete” (*shudders in disgrace for using that word seriously in 2025*).

Brett

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