Origin of strange HF Propagation effect in RX SSB signal fine structure waterfall ?

[Andy D. Hansen HB9CVQ]

HI Group 

Sorry for the Bandwidth, I am new. I was told someone here would probably know the answer.

HF Propagation effect and origin of it (mainly low bands), strange RX Waterfall Pass-Band appearance  on display of an SSB-Signal, fine structure, surely a propagation effect, not local EMI. Sometimes (4 to 6  lines,  periodic amplitudes with minima/maxima(brighter/darker) show up as vertical lines or later left, or right shifted in frequency. Is this related to signal multi-path effects or Doppler shifts?

Thanks for any enlightenment

 Greetings

Andy 

https://www.qrz.com/dB/hb9cvq

[David Eckhardt]

The horizontal lines are highly likely to be sferics / distant lightning discharges well outside your local area.  The vertical lines......??

Dave - WØLEV

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Dave - WØLEV

[Steve Cerwin]

Hi Andy

It sounds like you are describing phonemes. This is the frequency structure of human speech. You would see the same thing if you were viewing baseband audio on an audio spectrum analyzer. You see them in SSB because SSB is just speech unconverted in frequency by the carrier frequency (in the case of Upper Side Band). USB is the carrier plus audio frequency, LSB is the mirror image, or carrier minus audio frequency. 

73, Steve WA5FRF

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 12, 2024, at 1:49 PM, David Eckhardt <davea...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[euro.emc.service]

Dave

 

I agree, horizontal lines, all over the screen,…is distant lightning. I monitored that with www.blitzortung.org  and I have seen some, light, distant activities in /around Italy at that time.

The vertical lines......??....inside the SSB  pass band, tilted lines -fine structure?

 

Andy HB9CVQ

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[euro.emc.service]

Steve,

 

Yes, but it does not explain periodic lines ( up to 5 or 6, straight down/vertically ca. 30 deg. left, right shifted ). That is unlikely a speech pattern.

I already hear some folks speculating it might be Doppler Effect from moving ionosphere layers. But the Delta frequency (line distance) about 300 or 400 Hz is probably way to big. So some folks speculate about long echoes ( free electrons interacting with earth magnetic field lines ?)

 

73 Andy HB9CVQ

 

From: ham...@googlegroups.com <ham...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Steve Cerwin
Sent: Friday, January 12, 2024 9:11 PM
To: ham...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [HamSCI] Origin of strange HF Propagation effect in RX SSB signal fine structure waterfall ?

 

Hi Andy

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[Ethan Miller K8GU]

Andy,

Hard to tell exactly, but good chance it’s frequency-selective fading…beating between O and X modes, especially if it’s evening and NVIS…

73,

—Ethan, K8GU.

On Friday, January 12, 2024, 'euro.emc.service' via HamSCI <ham...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Dave

 

I agree, horizontal lines, all over the screen,…is distant lightning. I monitored that with www.blitzortung.org  and I have seen some, light, distant activities in /around Italy at that time.

The vertical lines......??....inside the SSB  pass band, tilted lines -fine structure?

 

Andy HB9CVQ

From: ham...@googlegroups.com <ham...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of David Eckhardt
Sent: Friday, January 12, 2024 8:50 PM
To: ham...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [HamSCI] Origin of strange HF Propagation effect in RX SSB signal fine structure waterfall ?

 

The horizontal lines are highly likely to be sferics / distant lightning discharges well outside your local area.  The vertical lines......??

 

Dave - WØLEV

 

On Fri, Jan 12, 2024 at 7:14 PM 'Andy D. Hansen HB9CVQ' via HamSCI <ham...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

HI Group 

Sorry for the Bandwidth, I am new. I was told someone here would probably know the answer.

HF Propagation effect and origin of it (mainly low bands), strange RX Waterfall Pass-Band appearance  on display of an SSB-Signal, fine structure, surely a propagation effect, not local EMI. Sometimes (4 to 6  lines,  periodic amplitudes with minima/maxima(brighter/darker) show up as vertical lines or later left, or right shifted in frequency. Is this related to signal multi-path effects or Doppler shifts?

Thanks for any enlightenment

 Greetings

Andy 

https://www.qrz.com/dB/hb9cvq

 

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Dave - WØLEV

 

 

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[Jonathan]

I would be wary of assuming they are sferics because at HF, sferic components don't propagate like they do at VLF. The origin strokes have to be much closer and the majority of the spectral power, at least with current measurements, isn't in the higher bands. Currently, it's the winter season in Switzerland where that Kiwi lists its location, so sferic density is low. It could be wideband pulse interference that is manmade.

Jonathan

KC3EEY

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[euro.emc.service]

Jonathan,

 

Distant lightning frequency spectrum reaches certainly into the low bands (160/80/(40M)). On 40m I could prove that by using my 2 el, shorted Yagi (DB18E SteppIR)

This 2El. beam’s F/B ratio is at least around 15dB.

Generally the QRN spectral intensity decreases with increase of operating frequency. An exception, however, is near by lightning …if you hear that (horizontal,10/20+dB broadband shift in waterfall ) you better disconnect antennas.

Yes: “sferic components don't propagate like they do at VLF”.

You would be surprised here, even in winter, using a remotely tuned 2x36m inverted Vee @ 24m above the house…If there are thunderstorm systems in the Mediterranean area , I hear/see them.

“It could be wideband pulse interference that is manmade” I discovered (QRN) it is almost (latency) synchronous with the real time events shown on www.blitzortung.org.

 

73 Andy HB9CVQ

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[David Eckhardt]

At night when the D-Layer decays after local sunset, sferics do propagate on HF, especially 160, 80, and 40-meters.  Growing up in central Michigan, summer nights on 160, 80, and to some extent on 40-meters were horrendous.  Here in N. Colorado, not quite so bad during summer, but 160 is all but useless during summer evenings and nights due to hemispheric-wide lightning discharges.    They're always there on VLF, presently monitoring 10 through 20 kHz using a 2-metre "shielded" loop on the hillside oriented for best reception N/S  (very weak Russian Alpha on 11.9 kHz at present but good 18.2 kHz, India, and 16.4, Norway, reception) - 1515 local, 2200 UT).  

Dave - WØLEV     

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Dave - WØLEV

[euro.emc.service]

Ethan,

Yes, I think so too.

The pics I showed were SDR Web-Radio screen shots only about 11km away from my QTH( gentle, hilly country)  in the evening ( NVIS, Sky + surface wave )

Folks in Austria (and Germany) have observed similar things (+splatter?) even around noon on 80m QSO over 11km distance .

I had a night time QSO with OE5KKP over 87 km and the effect showed up. Watching several Web-Radios , UK, DL, OK  simultaneously, revealed all three-one at a time- ( straight line ,frequency right and left shifted) occurred, distributed over this large area.

 

73 Andy HB9CVQ

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Dave - WØLEV

 

 

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[Jonathan]

Andy,

On the low bands, it is possible, but it depends on the season, distance, channel current of the sferics, as well as many others, and if there is a lightning danger that would warrant disconnecting antennas, the lightning is close enough where sferic components would be seen in the high bands too. It can be difficult to know for sure if what you are really hearing is sferics as you would have to account for their propagation. The best way to know is to correlate with a VLF receiver at the same location. I'm very skeptical because it's the winter season at that Kiwi's location.

Dave,

Sferics can propagate on the lower bands of HF, but that's mostly during the hemispheric warm seasons. During wintertime, I would be skeptical, but for a powerful stroke and the right propagation conditions, it is possible.

Jonathan

KC3EEY

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[Dana Whitlow]

Andy,

I have seen the slanted lanes quite a few times on

SSB signals, and suspect that we are seeing a shifting

interference pattern between two copies of the same

signal, propagated via two different paths, wherein

the delay difference between the two paths is drifting

over time.

Dana   K8YUM

Kerrville, TX

[Erik Nelson]

I believe this is a quirk of the SDR itself, as the signal I've heard sounds fine despite having a similar appearance. It seems to be dependent on the zoom level/amount of spectrum being displayed.

73,

  - Erik, KE5ZBG

[David Eckhardt]

PROPAGATING VIA TWO DIFFERENT PATHES:  Consider both the O and X modes off the ionosphere.  The X-mode will be weaker and delayed vs. the O-mode.  At times they can be quite separated "up there".  Consult your closest ionogram for present conditions.

I've seen Dr. Terry Bullett, W0ASP, realtime separate the two modes using the Boulder ionosonde data.

Dave - WØLEV  

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Dave - WØLEV

[euro.emc.service]

Thanks Dana,

yes,  that is what I think so too.

It would be nice to fine a simple estimate (equation) to predict the line numbers ( 3 to 5 in SSB? …e.g., 2.7 kHz/6 …450 Hz, -> 2.2ms )

What I have seen in some publications about Ionospheric Doppler Shift (?) ranged max up to 40Hz (25ms) . That is about an order of magnitude off.

Is in other words spiraling of free electrons around earth magnetic field lines causing (delay, echo) the observed effect ?

73 Andy HB9CVQ

 

From: ham...@googlegroups.com <ham...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Dana Whitlow
Sent: Friday, January 12, 2024 11:37 PM
To: ham...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [HamSCI] Origin of strange HF Propagation effect in RX SSB signal fine structure waterfall ?

 

Andy,

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