Frame & engine number data GT frames and 500cc engines

860 views
Skip to first unread message

SED Sci

unread,
Apr 13, 2019, 1:15:00 PM4/13/19
to Guzzi Singles
Attached is a list of Guzzi engine and frame numbers I compiled in an attempt to triangulate the year my GTV was built.  

A friend is visiting Italy this month for an Ariel rally at Lake Como!  One rally stop is the Guzzi museum and he offered to get some numbers from the museum so that got me thinking about this list again and thought you would be interested (and might scare up some more info).

Note: the list is for info or entertainment - it is not meant to replace or question a factory dating cert or any other documentation.   If you have any info to add to it, I'd be happy to add it in.

Creating a list like this is possible because Guzzi engine and frame numbers increase through the years.  There are breaks, so not a continuous sequence, but they do form a series of increasing numbers that can be used to approximate the year of production.  

500cc engine numbers form one series starting in 1921.  Spring frame numbers (all "GT" models) run in a different series starting in 1928. Frequent agreement between engine year and frame year gives confidence that the list is useful.

Most info was gleaned from internet pictures so subject to the accuracy of the descriptions and whether or not the timing cover is correct.  Despite this, the numbers seem to form a useful pattern.  A year followed by a ? (1937?) means the engine or frame number is out of sequence for the reported year.  A year in bold (1937) means it is my estimate based on where it falls in the sequence. 

If anyone can add to this list, I'd love to hear from you.

I'll also add it to the files section (if I can remember how!)

Shawn
FrameEngineNumbers.xlsx

SED Sci

unread,
Apr 16, 2019, 10:37:21 PM4/16/19
to Guzzi Singles
Got two replies and was able to make some corrections and add a record for a Super Alce that had both engine and frame numbers consistent with GT frame numbers and V engine numbers.

Super Alce numbers have not been included because I've not been able to divine a pattern to them - many frame numbers are 2 digits and have various letter prefixes. Others are 5 digits but they are either higher than the GT series (above 30000) or the stated year does not match.

If you have more info I'd love to include it.

Thanks!  
FrameEngineNumbers.xlsx

SED Sci

unread,
Jun 5, 2019, 11:56:28 PM6/5/19
to Guzzi Singles
Just got a date from the Guzzi factory for my GTV 500 - frame 6439 date of production 18 Feb. 1937.  The date conforms to the general pattern to the numbers.  Yay!  Maybe I can get the title corrected now....

jerry atric

unread,
Jun 6, 2019, 2:12:58 PM6/6/19
to Guzzi Singles
Congratulations. I hope your system is better than ours in the UK: Faceless bureaucrats.

SED Sci

unread,
Jun 6, 2019, 6:10:32 PM6/6/19
to Guzzi Singles
Ours are not faceless, they are the state patrol and the lady at the licensing office.  Back before computers robbed them of their judgement and responsibility it worked pretty well.  But now the software has gotten so specific they have no ability to do anything except fill in boxes which probably works 99.9% of the time, but...  I've been told that sometimes the computer insists that an old Italian moto is an RV despite the state patrol inspection, the owner and the photos, and there is nothing the poor lady can do except call the capital and ask for a computer tech or something!  Why hire people if you are going to take away their responsibility and give it to a box made in China?  Sorry - rant over...

SED Sci

unread,
Nov 5, 2019, 10:27:54 PM11/5/19
to Guzzi Singles
There are now over 40 frame numbers in the list of GT frames I've been compiling.  The list includes frames from the early 1930s to about 1950.  If you have additional info (frame and engine numbers and date of production) I'd love to add to it.

Graphing frame number against year shows the quality (or lack of) the data.  It also allows one to look at their frame number and see where it falls on the line to estimate the year of production.  GTS, GTV, Alce and early Super Alce (up to about 1950?) all seem to be in the same series.  

FrameData.jpg


Initially frames earlier than GTV and GTS were not included because the design is different.  Now I realize that they are probably also in the same series, but don't have many examples so have not included them.  Again if you have data to add, I'd love to include it.


Cheers,

Shawn

  



On Saturday, April 13, 2019 at 10:15:00 AM UTC-7, SED Sci wrote:

Brett Hardy

unread,
Nov 6, 2019, 2:04:21 AM11/6/19
to guzzi-...@googlegroups.com
I don't remember adding my 500cc super alce, if that's what it is? Frame is av31174 and the cover on the engine is av97859, there is also a number stamped on the casing below and that is 91739. Thanks Brett.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Guzzi Singles" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to guzzi-single...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/guzzi-singles/59f1107f-5656-4747-9e02-914aaeaced86%40googlegroups.com.

SED Sci

unread,
Nov 6, 2019, 8:18:44 PM11/6/19
to Guzzi Singles
Great info Brett.  Do you have a year?  Also 91739 is on the right front lower corner of the crankcase- correct?  Parallelogram fork and knee dampers with single exhaust OHV engine - correct?

This is a link to frame AV31274 only 100 digits different than yours!  https://www.ruotedasogno.com/en_gb/bikes/moto-guzzi/1980-moto-guzzi-500-sa.html


To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to guzzi-...@googlegroups.com.

Brett Hardy

unread,
Nov 6, 2019, 10:08:59 PM11/6/19
to guzzi-...@googlegroups.com
I am not sure of the year, when i brought it i was told 1936 and unfortunately i now think maybe 1950 but im not sure. Yes there is a number below the cover stamped in the lower case.yes the other bits are correct exposed valves single exhaust. 

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to guzzi-single...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/guzzi-singles/6e7cdc8b-8e23-41b7-a9ea-82bef9159e76%40googlegroups.com.

SED Sci

unread,
Nov 6, 2019, 10:26:00 PM11/6/19
to Guzzi Singles
Yes, my guess is the frame is 1950 or '51.  Jerry K. has an early Falcone with a 32,000 series frame number built late 1952, so I'd think 31,000 series numbers would be  1950-1951.

Engine number looks like it could be a year or so earlier.  1949?

I got a dating cert from the factory, but not cheap or easy from the US.

Thanks for the info!

Don West

unread,
Nov 7, 2019, 6:28:26 AM11/7/19
to guzzi-...@googlegroups.com
From the information on the Dutch owners club, it suggests all frames are in progression with the first being number 51 in 1921 up to number 33864 in 1954  This would suggest that anything numbered in the 31,0000's is going to be 1950's   https://www.mgcn.nl/database/mg-framenummers  ...

Numbering of frames 500 cc. in bulk before 1954 
from frame 51 (1921 ) to the chassis 33864 (1954)

Normal (1921-1924), Sport (1923-1928), C2V (1923-1930), C 4V (1924-1927), 4V SS (1928-1933) ', G.T. and G.T. military (1928-1930), Sport 14 (1929-1930), Sport 15 (1931-1939), 2VT (1931-1934), G.T. 16 (1931-1934), G.T.2VT (1931-1934), G.T.17 (1932-1939), S (1934-1940), V (1934-1940), G.T.S. (1934-1940), G.T.V. (1934-1946), W (1935-1939), G.T.W. (1935-1946), G.T.C. (1937-1939), Condor (1938-1940), G.T. 20 (1938), Alce (1940-1945), Alce V Milizia della Strada (1940), Superalce (1946-1954), Dondolino (1946-1947), G.T.V. teleidraulica (1947-1948), G.T.W. teleidraulica (1947-1948), Astore (1949-1953), Falcone (1950-1953), Falcone Turismo (1953-1954), Falcone Sport (1953-1954), 
All the types mentioned were included in the progression from frame 51 (1921) to frame 33864 (1954). {from frame 51 (1921) to frame 33864 (1954)} G.T.W. teleidraulica (1947-1948), Astore (1949-1953), Falcone (1950-1953), Falcone Turismo (1953-1954), Falcone Sport (1953-1954),


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Guzzi Singles" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to guzzi-single...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit

guzz...@aol.com

unread,
Nov 7, 2019, 4:23:02 PM11/7/19
to guzzi-...@googlegroups.com
my frame number on my 1959 Falcone as it was titled is frame # F95 CM and the motor # F58 CM and my titled 1947 Super Alce has an engine # SAG 55 and a frame # of AV 33331 …….. no factory documentation on either.

,,,, Tim 


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Guzzi Singles" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to guzzi-single...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit

John O Regan

unread,
Nov 7, 2019, 4:30:41 PM11/7/19
to guzzi-...@googlegroups.com
Hi Shawn,
The numbers from my all hydraulic GTW are frame, 25819 engine number W 81915
The bike came without paperwork and I have not searched for a production date

John

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/guzzi-singles/1710386277.1100996.1573161779609%40mail.yahoo.com.

Jerome Kimberlin

unread,
Nov 7, 2019, 7:24:35 PM11/7/19
to guzzi-...@googlegroups.com

I'm pretty sure all the Dutch info is accurate and was compiled by Ivar de Geer.  Ivar is/was known as the Guzzi historian and spent many hours viewing and compiling the records at the Guzzi archives in Mandello.  I haven't heard from Ivar in years so I don't know his present situation.

JerryK

SED Sci

unread,
Nov 8, 2019, 12:44:17 AM11/8/19
to Guzzi Singles
Thanks John,

Info for that bike is available from the Bonham's listing for the auction.  My notes show they had it listed as a 1939, but it is roughly 1948 from the numbers.  1939 should be a girder knee damper bike anyway.   Nice bike!

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Guzzi Singles" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to guzzi-...@googlegroups.com.

SED Sci

unread,
Nov 8, 2019, 1:02:23 AM11/8/19
to Guzzi Singles
The 1921 frame number series applies to the rigid 500cc frames.  Guzzi apparently started a new series of numbers with the GT frames in 1928 which results in early 1930s GT frames having numbers under 2000 when Guzzi had already built far more than 2000 bikes.  By 1935-37 rigid frames were numbered 25,000-27,000 or so while GT frames were 3000-6000 or so.  It was not until the late 1940s that GT frames had numbers up to 27,000. 

Another new frame number progression was started with the 250cc bikes - that maybe started with 175s?
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Guzzi Singles" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to guzzi-...@googlegroups.com.

jerry atric

unread,
Nov 8, 2019, 8:52:07 AM11/8/19
to Guzzi Singles
As far as I am aware, the Moto Guzzi Club GB have most of the numbers and years. I thought you only want 'GT' info, I'll forward my Model S (now sold) and S/A if you are interested in them, Shawn.

SED Sci

unread,
Nov 8, 2019, 8:27:05 PM11/8/19
to Guzzi Singles
Thank you Jerry - I'd love to have them.  I've not been keeping track of the rigid frame numbers, but I've found that many Super Alce numbers are in the same series as the GTS/GTV/Astore so have started to include them.

Rod Schmidt

unread,
Nov 11, 2019, 10:51:01 AM11/11/19
to guzzi-...@googlegroups.com
Shawn
I believe I have a 34 GT-17 that I bought in Asmara, Eiritria back in 1973.
The frame #  2498
The Engine # L29057
I'm in St.Paul minnesota  
Any info would be appreiciated.  Its a fun rider, a bit slow though.
Thanks
Rod Schmidt

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Guzzi Singles" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to guzzi-single...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit

SED Sci

unread,
Nov 11, 2019, 11:34:01 AM11/11/19
to Guzzi Singles
HI Rod,

Cool!  Love the bikes with some history.  Some wind-blown sand suggests mine spent some time in North Africa, probably Libya.

Looks like 1934 or '35 from the list of engine and frame numbers.  

Cheers,
Shawn


On Monday, November 11, 2019 at 7:51:01 AM UTC-8, Rod Schmidt wrote:
Shawn
I believe I have a 34 GT-17 that I bought in Asmara, Eiritria back in 1973.
The frame #  2498
The Engine # L29057
I'm in St.Paul minnesota  
Any info would be appreiciated.  Its a fun rider, a bit slow though.
Thanks
Rod Schmidt

On Friday, November 8, 2019, 07:27:07 PM CST, SED Sci <doa...@gmail.com> wrote:


Thank you Jerry - I'd love to have them.  I've not been keeping track of the rigid frame numbers, but I've found that many Super Alce numbers are in the same series as the GTS/GTV/Astore so have started to include them.

On Friday, November 8, 2019 at 5:52:07 AM UTC-8, jerry atric wrote:
As far as I am aware, the Moto Guzzi Club GB have most of the numbers and years. I thought you only want 'GT' info, I'll forward my Model S (now sold) and S/A if you are interested in them, Shawn.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Guzzi Singles" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to guzzi-...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit
Reply all
Reply to author
Forward
0 new messages